Xarc wrote: »

class balance I mean

no build, no gear, no bonus, no passives
veangeance skills are great

What? There is absolutely no class balance. Sorc doesn't even have a single target spammable and many classes don't have access to basic buffs/functionality while others do. NB still has stealth while all the counterplay mechanics to stealth have been removed. Some classes have great sustain while others have none.

Even the devs frequently stress that balancing is not the point of this test because they know it's not balanced in the slightest.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

No lag but also this is the worst pvp experience I have ever played.

Combat is slow, sluggish, and has no room for skill expression. Just a numbers game.

Says you, I had an amazing time. A good sorc can still outplay 3-4 players which is asking alot considering they still have sets and weapons disabled. You add back in those systems and you could easily build to fight 10+ people again.

The big zerg battles are EXACTLY what the first few years of cyrodil was like. Which if I remember correctly Alch you joined sometime around summerset. Smallscale and 1vX back in the old days had to do more with farms and openworld ganking.

I think you misunderstand. I was doing well, probably better than the vast majority of players. Doesn't change the fact that its too bare bones, and doesn't leave much to skill expression.

I bought the game in 2015, started pvping in early 2016

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@MincVinyl alright so update. vengeance is way more fun in a 3/4 man than solo lol

Yeah a 3 man can fight 10 people if done well. Again we are asking alot considering zos didnt give the oldschool 1vX tools like reflect wings or flat cost streak or harness magicka or sap+siphon sustain. Like I can survive against 5-10 people on sorc, but there is not much hope for turning and burning and killing more than 1 player in that scenario. Curse+scamp+atro+endless can put a group down so quick.

One major thing to point out is that the general flow of combat is 100% there. Dueling is intense, 1vX is intense, weaving the proper skills feels important. I cannot agree with anyone who says it is dumbed down. To me it shows a clear lack of understanding of combat, which likely just stems from people not adapting..... or not having youtubers to copy.

Obviously this shouldn't be it. However I easily see them doing passes on item sets and and passives next which would be huge for "diversity". Alot of people hate having to deal with pve and pvp gear swapping so I could also imagine a system of pvp only gear. Though it is hard to trust zos to iron out the problematic sets like viper, tremor, tarnished that make people rage and leave.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

No lag but also this is the worst pvp experience I have ever played.

Combat is slow, sluggish, and has no room for skill expression. Just a numbers game.

Says you, I had an amazing time. A good sorc can still outplay 3-4 players which is asking alot considering they still have sets and weapons disabled. You add back in those systems and you could easily build to fight 10+ people again.

The big zerg battles are EXACTLY what the first few years of cyrodil was like. Which if I remember correctly Alch you joined sometime around summerset. Smallscale and 1vX back in the old days had to do more with farms and openworld ganking.

I think you misunderstand. I was doing well, probably better than the vast majority of players. Doesn't change the fact that its too bare bones, and doesn't leave much to skill expression.

I bought the game in 2015, started pvping in early 2016

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@MincVinyl alright so update. vengeance is way more fun in a 3/4 man than solo lol

I cannot agree with anyone who says it is dumbed down.

Combat is actually dumbed down though, interactions between sets and skills are not incorporated into this system. Theorycrafting is limited to which skills of a very small number are placed on your bar. Positioning in group play is certainly dumbed down - now you just want to pixel stack on crown because of the AOE cap in place.

Mechanical skill is still there for sure but the variety of setups and counters to setups are not. This is why players say combat is dumbed down.

Duelling was always more fun when you standardised gear and skills (this is basically what almost every duelling tournament rule set was aimed at) this hasn't changed.

(I'm not talking about balance because ZOS specifically said they don't care about it for this test but ofc it's an issue too).

I guess it depends more on what you prefer in combat. Whether you want more mechanical/mental tech or want more slotted tech to recognize and react to.

There are a lot of players who simply only want to slot sets that automatically play the game for them. Look at how many people defend tarnished or RoA or DC. To me that combat is dumb, it requires little effort or mental power. Just because you farmed a dlc set doesn't mean you are a better player suddenly. To me that is basically stolen valor.

My best comparison is Yugioh. There are many generations of the game. Early on it was simple and more about mental gymnastics. In the middle it was a mix of mental gymnastics and build setup mixing effects. In the end it is more of depending solely on new dlc effects that trigger effects that do other affects that do this and that....... and so on until even the card game lags. There is that happy medium which is missing in vengeance as zos has stated the pure template pvp is not the end vision.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Combat is actually dumbed down though, interactions between sets and skills are not incorporated into this system. Theorycrafting is limited to which skills of a very small number are placed on your bar. Positioning in group play is certainly dumbed down - now you just want to pixel stack on crown because of the AOE cap in place.

Yeah it's definitely dumbed down. Way less going on, way slower pace. No distinct variants of any class. I too found that positioning reduced to either stacking pixel on pixel with allies to brawl, or floating exactly 28m away from the edge of the zerg taking pot shots. So the same meta as live: ball group (harder to play), or ranged single target spam (easier to play vs slower enemies). The slow movement speed severely limits smallscale tactics and class diversity.

That part I will disagree with. It’s definitely less mechanically challenging. There’s not a lot of combos you can work with. There’s not as many tools available that allow you to really outplay the other person. Can’t play around off balance , can’t play around sorc curse streak combo, no shade maneuvering, some classes missing stun etc.


As for duels, well tbh on nb all you really have to do is play patiently and wait for the other person to run out of sustain lol. I tried plar and I think it pretty strong in duels, it’s just people aren’t using the right stuff yet.


That being said not having to deal with procs and cross heals made 3/4 man fun.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

That part I will disagree with. It’s definitely less mechanically challenging. There’s not a lot of combos you can work with. There’s not as many tools available that allow you to really outplay the other person. Can’t play around off balance , can’t play around sorc curse streak combo, no shade maneuvering, some classes missing stun etc.

I feel like resource management is way more challenging than it is on live, you can't overextend or engage a group solo while not near LoS, and bash canceling is actually pretty significant. I honestly like it and feel like certain elements of Vengeance are way more skill based than normal Cyrodiil.

There's also no "free" damage in Vengeance. If you want to do good damage you have to press skills, you can't get status effect procs, set procs, and enchantment procs. In normal Cyrodiil someone can randomly light attack you and have 5 or more instances of damage hit you. At this point players aren't even directly responsible for the amount of damage they do.

I agree that combos are a little limited right now, but there's definitely a lot of opportunities to outplay someone. As for off balance, that's not a very fun or skill based mechanic and it should stay gone. All off balance does is encourage people to hold down their block button until they are no longer off balanced, and at this point that can be easily sustained. It's especially annoying on nightblade since server positioning is so bad that sometimes you're flanking or being flanked when it doesn't appear you are on your screen. The concept of an off GCD stun is nice, but I think it should instead be a skill like Crushing Weapon where you activate it and then your next heavy attack in x seconds will stun. That would at least give more power to the player and eliminate the worst parts of off balance.

Stamicka wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

That part I will disagree with. It’s definitely less mechanically challenging. There’s not a lot of combos you can work with. There’s not as many tools available that allow you to really outplay the other person. Can’t play around off balance , can’t play around sorc curse streak combo, no shade maneuvering, some classes missing stun etc.

I feel like resource management is way more challenging than it is on live, you can't overextend or engage a group solo while not near LoS, and bash canceling is actually pretty significant. I honestly like it and feel like certain elements of Vengeance are way more skill based than normal Cyrodiil.

There's also no "free" damage in Vengeance. If you want to do good damage you have to press skills, you can't get status effect procs, set procs, and enchantment procs. In normal Cyrodiil someone can randomly light attack you and have 5 or more instances of damage hit you. At this point players aren't even directly responsible for the amount of damage they do.

I agree that combos are a little limited right now, but there's definitely a lot of opportunities to outplay someone. As for off balance, that's not a very fun or skill based mechanic and it should stay gone. All off balance does is encourage people to hold down their block button until they are no longer off balanced, and at this point that can be easily sustained. It's especially annoying on nightblade since server positioning is so bad that sometimes you're flanking or being flanked when it doesn't appear you are on your screen. The concept of an off GCD stun is nice, but I think it should instead be a skill like Crushing Weapon where you activate it and then your next heavy attack in x seconds will stun. That would at least give more power to the player and eliminate the worst parts of off balance.

Resource management is harder but not in a good way. Not in a fun way. Pretty much every class but nightblade runs out of their MAIN resource far too easily. It slows down the game. Thats your opinion on off-balance but don't forget it was around longer than it was on concealed. Lots of people used it back when it was a CP. Undeniably learning to utilize off balance right is part of what sets good night blades apart from others. Otherwise, it's just incap bow rinse and repeat.

I don't want proc sets back, I don't want ele sus spam, I want for skill options that allow for more skill expression. Campaign has grown on me a bit, but I still think the combat is too simplistic and variety is too low for long term pvp. BUT I SEE THE POTENTIAL.

freespirit wrote: »

I would love to try the new Campaign but already at late afternoon my time, all Alliances are locked and the DC queue is at 108!!



PC-EU. Just how many people per Alliance are allowed? Anyone know?

I've yet to see an official figure on what the pop cap is. This has been asked many many times but no figured have been made public. I'm assuming there is some internal resason (maybe manipulation from players?) that ZoS doesn't want to throw those numbers out there.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

another update

campaign sucks, nb is the only class worth playing

Pretty rough fighting them with no detect pots or camo hunter. Just have to hope they're not very good.

I have crashed 5x and counting in the new vengeance servers. 3x on Monday alone. Normally my crashes per week are 1 or less

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zerger DK chain pull spam isn't Rushing Agony bad, but it's definitely a "haha screw you for leaving the zerg" anti-skill mechanic that punishes soloing and rewards brainless spam gameplay. Sure I can still run in circles around rocks or towers and they can't pull me but in something like a keep battle, it's like, why did I bother showing up.

Indeed, the meta for most of the keep fights is simply to stack DKs (or Portal Wardens) and pull enemy singles into your own zerg to get single-targeted down.

Riveting gameplay.