New PVP server test has no lag with these zergs!! Woot

Turtle_Bot · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Let's not celebrate the performance until we see it handle NA prime time.

When I was on PC EU yesterday, there were multiple 3-way zerg battles (each at alessia, arrius and glade) that made 2015 PvP look small scale in comparison and performance was still way better than it usually is with existing tiny pop-caps.

Performance was also infinitely better than whenever a ball group logs into regular Cyrodiil. Further evidence that the specific way ball groups specifically play (and not just "zerg numbers" like many ball group players keep claiming) is a big (and direct) contributor to the lag that we see in regular PvP.

I also want to note, the combat bug has all but vanished in these tests. I can, literally within seconds of no longer directly participating in a massive 250+ player ZvZvZ battle, be out of combat and able to mount again and go somewhere else, even if that battle is still going on right next to me. This is something I thought I would never see with how long that stupid combat bug has been around.

Turtle_Bot · March 25

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Elrond87 wrote: »

didn't get stuck in combat

I know! If only one part of this test ends up being implemented, I hope it's whatever apparently "fixed" the stuck-in-combat bug.

This, so much this!

Literally within seconds of no longer directly participating (i.e. attacking/being attack by enemies or healing allies) in the massive zerg battles, I am able to mount up and go somewhere else, even if that same massive battle is still raging right next to me.

Yudo · March 25

Well the fps does still tank during the large encounters but it is nowhere near the levels of not being able to do anything so that is great. Would be interesting to get an update from them on findings afterwards.

Acknowledging this is just a performance tests, the experience has been dumbed down to larger-group-wins and build diversity is non existent. Not getting blown up by surprise is rather refreshing though, who would have thought its more fun without Rush.

The queue during peak makes it impossible to participate.

WaywardArgonian · March 25

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Performance was also infinitely better than whenever a ball group logs into regular Cyrodiil. Further evidence that the specific way ball groups specifically play (and not just "zerg numbers" like many ball group players keep claiming) is a big (and direct) contributor to the lag that we see in regular PvP.

This is not really accurate. The reason for the performance increase can't be solely pinned on there not being ballgroups, but rather that the amount of calculations needing to be made is reduced severely. No CP, no resistances, no passives, no severe fluctuations in weapon damage, no conditional proc sets, no volendrung, no HoTs, no DoTs, no sets, only a handful of 'one-and-done' skills.

Ballgroups do add that additional layer of performance stress in regular Cyro but that is because they add a relatively large amount of calculations for their group size. But make no mistake, had they just magically removed ballgroups and let these Vengeance zergs fight each other with regular sets and skills, the server would have crashed every fight.

Joy_Division · March 25

Think we are going to get spoiled by being able to mount basically on demand.

Also think we will quickly tire that vengeance is pretty much just a numbers game with these templates.

For a week though, it's worth it if ZOS can learn a thing or two.

Udrath · March 25

My only gripe with the testing is they should have given us like 99999 magicka recovery so we could spam more abilities.

xylena_lazarow · March 25

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also think we will quickly tire that vengeance is pretty much just a numbers game with these templates.

I was bored in an hour. It's fun to figure out the class at first, then you're Zerger #648912 and you either like that or you don't. Individual skill pretty much doesn't matter in large scale, why go full sweatlord when it's just as good to spam Resto heavies and an AoE heal. Range/melee balance is even worse than on live. The performance did hold up, it's great to see a lot of casuals getting into it, but the shallow gameplay will lose some players.

Dueling was surprisingly fun. Hope to add Vengeance ruleset to overworld dueling.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 25

Personally it feels like these tests have nothing to do with Cyrodiil performance and are just early tests for ZOS's other MMO in development, but maybe I'm jaded after the years of inaction :P

xylena_lazarow · March 25

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Personally it feels like these tests have nothing to do with Cyrodiil performance and are just early tests for ZOS's other MMO in development, but maybe I'm jaded after the years of inaction :P

There's no way they fully redesigned 126 class skills just for one week...

Rohamad_Ali · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Personally it feels like these tests have nothing to do with Cyrodiil performance and are just early tests for ZOS's other MMO in development, but maybe I'm jaded after the years of inaction :P

There's no way they fully redesigned 126 class skills just for one week...

^ This.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Personally it feels like these tests have nothing to do with Cyrodiil performance and are just early tests for ZOS's other MMO in development, but maybe I'm jaded after the years of inaction :P

There's no way they fully redesigned 126 class skills just for one week...

I didn't say 'just for 1 week' I'm sure the data will be useful in MMO2

But also I don't really consider these skills to be particularly high effort 'full redesigns' they are basically just copies of each other with some slight variety based on the original skills if it took more than a day per class of effort I would be quite shocked.

Tcholl · March 25

For someone who was not very excited about this test, I have to admit that it was a lot of fun to play the campaign yesterday.

Hope this helps our beloved PvP.

Navaac223 · March 25

I do get that this is just a test and it has nothing to do with balance BUT I think zos should have put more effort into making sure each class it at least playable. So far I've tested necro, warden and necro and the differences between necro and other classes is even worse than in normal pvp : it has no sustain, no usable stun, skulls still never land and the burst heal is just terrible compared to other classes. Even the damage sucks : same damage as nb's spammable with skulls (except they never hit the target) but skulls and the decent dot on skeletal arcanist are the only usable damaging abilities. Compare that with nb's executes, teleporting strike, 2 great ults and average spammable.

So why does it matter ? It's just a test after all. To me it's really just another sign that zos doesn't care : it wouldn't have taken a lot of time to make sure every class has sustain (they could have given expunge some ressource return when you use it for example) or good heals. That's really bad considering they're already seen as incompetent when it comes to pvp, or even high level pve, so having good balance would not only have made this test more enjoyable for players but it would most importantly show that there are people who understand pvp at zos. It would probably have been seen by pvp players as a sign that the next updates are going to be good balance patches. Maybe even featuring a nerf to hardened ward and a buff to necro/arc/stamplar ? Instead, the lack of effort put into balance here is announcing another year of questionnable changes and "buff but actually nerf" to necro D;

Finally, am I the only one who has noticed that lag is slowly coming back ? This afternoon I went in cyro to test out nb and maybe even get some 1vX footage on vengeance and I noticed some abilities were taking a long time to fire.
At 4s, I'm spamming the key for cloak but it takes a second to fire, same at 15s
At 22s, there's a series of abilities not firing or firing like 3 secs too late
At the end, even though, after many hours of pvp, I have enough muscle memory to break free and instantly cast my burst heal, somehow everything takes a while and I can't even heal before getting killed.

https://youtu.be/66laH2dXhrQ

Aside from that, the servers seem fine, though I'd like to have more players per campaign since I don't really want to spend 30 minutes in a queue to have the priviledge of participating in zerg V zerg, the highest form of pvp...

YandereGirlfriend · March 25

It was genuinely very cool to see so many players in one place at the same time and without the server grinding to a standstill or incurring huge input lag. That and the banished "Stuck In Combat" bug are definitely the best aspects of the test.

Cons are similar to what others have said: the actual moment-to-moment gameplay is quite boring as an individual player makes precisely zero difference to the outcome of fights. Some people like low-effort zerging but I left after about 45 minutes because Vengeance combat is basically just one zerg train eating up a smaller zerg train in an endless Ouroboros.

Also, target caps on damage abilities are total rubbish. If there is a single rule that is hard-capping the expression of individual player skill then that is it. As long as there is a target cap in place fighting is entirely a deterministic numbers game where the largest zerg will always win. And that is fun for... about 30 minutes. Then it's time to do something else.

blktauna · March 25

Today on Vengence on PCNA the lag is horrific and I am stuttering all over.

Quackery · March 25

I've never been this miserable playing pvp since I started playing the game. It's just miserable, not having any fun at all.

Kikazaru · March 25

The performance is way better, but with the limited set of tools and build options, it boils down to who has the bigger zerg in the end usually. I got bored after a while.

SeaGtGruff · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Personally it feels like these tests have nothing to do with Cyrodiil performance and are just early tests for ZOS's other MMO in development, but maybe I'm jaded after the years of inaction :P

There's no way they fully redesigned 126 class skills just for one week...

But it wasn't "just for one week." The "redesigned" class skills were also used in the PTS test earlier this year. And aside from the fact that we really have no idea how difficult or easy, or lengthy or quick, it was to redesign the class skills, this test, and all of the time and effort that has gone into putting it together and that's going into monitoring it and analyzing the results, is in my opinion hard and conclusive evidence of something that a lot of PvP players have been repeatedly denying for a very long time-- that ZOS actually does care about PvP in general and about Cyrodiil AvA PvP in particular, and is actively working on identifying issues and coming up with solutions.

MincMincMinc · March 26

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

No lag but also this is the worst pvp experience I have ever played.

Combat is slow, sluggish, and has no room for skill expression. Just a numbers game.

Says you, I had an amazing time. A good sorc can still outplay 3-4 players which is asking alot considering they still have sets and weapons disabled. You add back in those systems and you could easily build to fight 10+ people again.

The big zerg battles are EXACTLY what the first few years of cyrodil was like. Which if I remember correctly Alch you joined sometime around summerset. Smallscale and 1vX back in the old days had to do more with farms and openworld ganking.

Alchimiste1 · March 26

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

No lag but also this is the worst pvp experience I have ever played.

Combat is slow, sluggish, and has no room for skill expression. Just a numbers game.

Says you, I had an amazing time. A good sorc can still outplay 3-4 players which is asking alot considering they still have sets and weapons disabled. You add back in those systems and you could easily build to fight 10+ people again.

The big zerg battles are EXACTLY what the first few years of cyrodil was like. Which if I remember correctly Alch you joined sometime around summerset. Smallscale and 1vX back in the old days had to do more with farms and openworld ganking.

I think you misunderstand. I was doing well, probably better than the vast majority of players. Doesn't change the fact that its too bare bones, and doesn't leave much to skill expression.

I bought the game in 2015, started pvping in early 2016

MorallyBipolar · March 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Let's not celebrate the performance until we see it handle NA prime time.

Exactly.

Last night NA prime time was not especially good performance wise. Still had rubberbanding, skill delays, issues with bar swapping among other issues. This version of Cyodiil was fun for a few hours and the novelty has already worn off. It's too basic without any customization of builds. No skill gap by design. The floor and the ceiling are the same thing with this version of Cyrodiil.

MorallyBipolar · March 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

All I kno is ARC, Plar and Sorc are fun right now in the test. I haven’t tried NB or Necro yet. But I will soon. DK is complete trash in this test. Just my personal opinion. And I’m a huge DK fan.

I've tried DK, NB, and Warden. DK felt good in smaller fights, but in larger ones I felt like a big slow target dummy. NB felt overrated, no range. Warden was a bit weird but solid, fast and tanky, fast birds. The individual meta heavily favors ranged weapons and classes with a ranged kit, even more than live, there's seemingly zero payoff for melee weapons or taking the risk to get into melee range in the first place. Offensive Resto might be cracked.

Yep. Stamina is only good for running and dodge rolling now. No other reason to even have a stamina bar this way for the most part.

MorallyBipolar · March 26

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

I would love to try the new Campaign but already at late afternoon my time, all Alliances are locked and the DC queue is at 108!!

PC-EU. Just how many people per Alliance are allowed? Anyone know?

Early indications from this morning was that pop cap is >=200/faction. At least, AD hit 200 at one fight. I would guess that this aligns with at least double the normal popcap.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reminds me of Beta.

But the balance on these skills is terrible.

Just wanted to reiterate that the focus here is not on balance, but overall game performance. This is just a test and not a full on game mode, so balance was not the core concern. So we appreciate anyone playing without the balance element in mind for this test.

It is extremely difficult to separate ZOS's stated disregard for any balance consideration with the request for feedback on how the combat feels/is "fun" (direct quote, emphasis mine; "and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?").
Consider that the feedback thread specifically asks "What you think of the simplified abilities?"
Any response to address this mandates commentary on ZOS's abject and admitted failure to do reasonable balancing.
Unbalanced combat, with poorly thought out abilities is not fun, and the simplified abilities in their current unbalanced state are bad. ZOS's continuance to insist that this criticism is invalid is pants-on-head.

SaffronCitrusflower · March 27

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

I would love to try the new Campaign but already at late afternoon my time, all Alliances are locked and the DC queue is at 108!!

PC-EU. Just how many people per Alliance are allowed? Anyone know?

Early indications from this morning was that pop cap is >=200/faction. At least, AD hit 200 at one fight. I would guess that this aligns with at least double the normal popcap.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reminds me of Beta.

But the balance on these skills is terrible.

Just wanted to reiterate that the focus here is not on balance, but overall game performance. This is just a test and not a full on game mode, so balance was not the core concern. So we appreciate anyone playing without the balance element in mind for this test.

It is extremely difficult to separate ZOS's stated disregard for any balance consideration with the request for feedback on how the combat feels/is "fun" (direct quote, emphasis mine; "and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?").
Consider that the feedback thread specifically asks "What you think of the simplified abilities?"
Any response to address this mandates commentary on ZOS's abject and admitted failure to do reasonable balancing.
Unbalanced combat, with poorly thought out abilities is not fun, and the simplified abilities in their current unbalanced state are bad. ZOS's continuance to insist that this criticism is invalid is pants-on-head.

Alchimiste1 · March 27

@MincVinyl alright so update. vengeance is way more fun in a 3/4 man than solo lol

xylena_lazarow · March 27

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Yep. Stamina is only good for running and dodge rolling now. No other reason to even have a stamina bar this way for the most part.

I've seen a lot more block casting than I have in a while, just because there's so little downside to jamming on the block button when you have nothing else to do with your stam bar. Not something that should be encouraged imo.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@MincVinyl alright so update. vengeance is way more fun in a 3/4 man than solo lol

Do you see more potential for 3-4 smallscale on Vengeance than on live? Smaller fights seemed potentially fun but it was hard to find any, and the slow mounts made it painful to ride out to back line resources. Ran with my group of 3 the other day but we got bored pretty fast, we can't use our speed to our advantage anywhere near like we can on live.

WaywardArgonian · March 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Do you see more potential for 3-4 smallscale on Vengeance than on live? Smaller fights seemed potentially fun but it was hard to find any, and the slow mounts made it painful to ride out to back line resources. Ran with my group of 3 the other day but we got bored pretty fast, we can't use our speed to our advantage anywhere near like we can on live.

Smallscaling is not viable in the current Vengeance environment imo, especially when compared to the regular Cyro ruleset. There is a hard cap on how many people you can take on regardless of skill difference, and the odds that you eventually run into overwhelming numbers of enemies are high given there are huge zergs pretty much all over the map. The best you can do with a smallscale at the moment is orbit around your own zerg so that they can absorb the pressure for you, but at that point it sort of stops being actual smallscaling because you still rely on other players.

Ballgrouping is still possible btw, just a lot slower and less powerful than usual.

Xarc · March 27

This campaign is extremely balanced even if it is not the first objective.

Perhaps there are some lessons to learn from these tests.

WaywardArgonian · March 27

Xarc wrote: »

This campaign is extremely balanced even if it is not the first objective.

Balanced in what way?

Xarc · March 27

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

This campaign is extremely balanced even if it is not the first objective.

Balanced in what way?

class balance I mean

no build, no gear, no bonus, no passives
veangeance skills are great