End Ganking Properly

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Martial Heavy Attacks and abilities still stun while flanking an enemy in stealth, a modifer that can be maintained by entering stealth, then using invisibility to suppress detection regardless of distance.
2H heavy attacks don't break you out of stealth while it's charging up (I assume DW don't either)
Vandorallen's Set has a significantly high proc that synergizes with Anthelmir's and seemingly will trigger on the same Heavy Attack.
Snipe doesn't break you out of stealth until the projectile hits, and given the channel time allows you to exit stealth nearly the same time as another attack (like point blank snipe into Incap)

dark_hunterxmg · March 15

Banner Bearer should not allow the user to sneak or stealth when active. It's a big flag on top of your character...

Oblivion_Protocol · March 18

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Banner Bearer should not allow the user to sneak or stealth when active. It's a big flag on top of your character...

And your weapons glow like lightsabers when Grim Focus is slotted. And certain skins and morphs light you up like a Christmas tree and include giant accessories. If we start injecting realism into this game, it falls apart immediately.

As for the original point, ganking has been bad for a while now. It was never difficult to survive a gank. The problem was what came after, as good NBs could continue to fight you after, while bad ones tried to run and hide.

Rungar · March 18

You cant end ganking but you can separate new players from old ones. Account based highest alliance rank and three campaigns novice, adept and master cyrodill campaigns. players can then graduate upward but not backward so if your new most of the gankers will be in a different campaign than you.

this is actually critical for new players since a good first experience goes a long way to staying with the game. As bane would say to batman..your success has defeated you.

Oblivion_Protocol · March 18

Rungar wrote: »

You cant end ganking but you can separate new players from old ones. Account based highest alliance rank and three campaigns novice, adept and master cyrodill campaigns. players can then graduate upward but not backward so if your new most of the gankers will be in a different campaign than you.

this is actually critical for new players since a good first experience goes a long way to staying with the game. As bane would say to batman..your success has defeated you.

There are multiple problems with your suggestion to separate the campaigns based on Alliance rank.

Not the least among the issues is the supposition that Alliance rank somehow equals skill. That’s like thinking a CP 2100 player is going to be a PvP god. I could zerg surf and boost my Alliance rank into the stratosphere. I could join a nightcap crew and gain Alliance rank without ever engaging in PvP once. Under your suggestion, a play can get to a Master campaign while still having Novice-level PvP skill.

The second issue is smurfing, aka, high level players making new accounts to fight lower level players. It happens in literally every competitive game mode I can think of. Hell, you don’t even need to make a new account to see how this practice affects ESO PvP. Just join the ‘Under 50’ campaign and see how many newbies get beaten into the dirt regularly.

The third problem is that your system would make it so that playing with friends is more difficult. If you’re new to ESO, and your friend is a Grand Warlord ranked PvP player, you won’t see them for a long time. And let’s not talk about what this would do to PvP guilds.

This brings me to the biggest issue, which is the combination of all three problems:

Scenario - Veteran PvP player A has friend B who wants to join them. B is new to ESO and relegated to the Novice campaign while A and their guild are in the Master campaign. A does one of two things:

1. Hops on an alt account and groups with B to help demolish new players and boost AB’s Alliance rank faster.
2. Sends B a bunch of high level gear that B didn’t earn, and tells B to slap on a meta build for an advantage over new players who barely know Axes and Maces.

Either way, it creates a system that promotes fast tracking to higher tiers through unfair advantages. And I didn’t even get into the possibility of selling “Alliance rank leveling carries”, the same way we currently have dungeon, arena, and trial carries.

Rungar · March 19

thats not the case at all. The under 50 dont work because anyone can make a new character and the account based highest alliance rank is the best chance because the players success will promote them away from new players. As i said its an upward strategy so you can always join the highest but cant go backwards.

the point is to keep veteran players away from new players so they can at least initially have some good pvp matches with similar players and learn the game. As they progress they are more and more exposed to more veteran players. its not a skill issue but one of familiarity with the game.

itll never be perfect but it will work in most cases. There will always be those who will hop every barrier to grief. They cant be eliminated but they can be minimized. A new player would be not have to deal with ball groups and endless ganking for the most part. Mostly they will encounter new players like themselves and have better outcomes in general versus what exists now which is pretty much nothing.

How many people are going through the trouble of alt accounts, and eso is not like other games... The gear wont help as much as in other games. i feel like your reaching there and that wouldnt be the norm.

BXR_Lonestar · March 19

@Avran_Sylt

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler

This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

Avran_Sylt · March 19

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt
show previous quotes

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler
This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

I’ve illuminated some additional methods of means to stack damage directly out of stealth that might protect those players.

DarkWitcher2511 · March 19

Why do they nerf the NB every time? So sorc is a great balanced class? Why cut down on gameplay variety? Why cut ganking? It's just a style of play like any other. Well remove ganking as a style of play, let's all play tanks and fight in pvp for 10 minutes until someone is low on resources and dies. Very exciting pvp will be( ganker is already very thin. I agree for bombers that unnecessary but solo ganking should be for it is as much a part of the game as any kind of role-playing wagering. There is a great balance you can kill someone one and leave, but if caught you are dead, in open pvp ganker dies immediately. If someone is always complaining about ganking it's his problem that he can not think of a build or use elixirs for detection

Avran_Sylt · March 19

DarkWitcher2511 wrote: »

Why do they nerf the NB every time? So sorc is a great balanced class? Why cut down on gameplay variety? Why cut ganking? It's just a style of play like any other. Well remove ganking as a style of play, let's all play tanks and fight in pvp for 10 minutes until someone is low on resources and dies. Very exciting pvp will be( ganker is already very thin. I agree for bombers that unnecessary but solo ganking should be for it is as much a part of the game as any kind of role-playing wagering. There is a great balance you can kill someone one and leave, but if caught you are dead, in open pvp ganker dies immediately. If someone is always complaining about ganking it's his problem that he can not think of a build or use elixirs for detection

It’s very simple, and seen in the design of the Vengence campaign test:

Everyone playing 1v1 should be able to stalemate, at minimum several GCD’s to kill someone within standard abilities, and optimal play is numbers and coordinated burst on a single target at a time.

The ultimate gameplay loop becoming; form a ball group, and coordinate the person on the opposing ball group you’re going to simultaneously CC and burst down within a second. Essentially picking each other apart one at a time.

So far as I can tell this is what they want moving forward.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 19

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

show previous quotes

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler
This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

I’ve illuminated some additional methods of means to stack damage directly out of stealth that might protect those players.

No, there is no issue with a ganker killing a good player. Use it as a learning experience.

I rarely get ganked - so rarely in fact that I basically never deposit my Tel Var in IC. If a ganker has a good enough combo and is aware enough to kill me at the right time, then good on them. I look at when I got ganked, what they killed me with, and what I could have done to survive.

Dying from a gank is almost always the target's fault - it means you weren't buffed, do not have enough defense on your build, or were not careful enough. Often it's a mix between those. Learn from it.

Avran_Sylt · March 19

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

show previous quotes

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler
This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

I’ve illuminated some additional methods of means to stack damage directly out of stealth that might protect those players.

No, there is no issue with a ganker killing a good player. Use it as a learning experience.

I rarely get ganked - so rarely in fact that I basically never deposit my Tel Var in IC. If a ganker has a good enough combo and is aware enough to kill me at the right time, then good on them. I look at when I got ganked, what they killed me with, and what I could have done to survive.

Dying from a gank is almost always the target's fault - it means you weren't buffed, do not have enough defense on your build, or were not careful enough. Often it's a mix between those. Learn from it.

I mean I agree with you, but wouldn't a formal handshake before fighting be much more honorable?

BXR_Lonestar · March 20

@Avran_Sylt

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

Not at all. That is something within their control to prevent and avoid, and they just didn't. This is going to happen to everyone at some point, just like getting caught up in a bomb is something that is going to happen to everyone at some point. It's just part of the game.

And ganking/bombing is a legitimate playing style. Its more difficult than you think it is (if you think it is easy, just try it - it requires exceptional patience and a good eye for reading the map). And even those that are good at it fail constantly, so their success rate is really low.

I'm not trying to bait anyone, but if you are getting ganked/blown up constantly, that is something that is entirely within YOUR power to control, making it an L2P issue.

BXR_Lonestar · March 20

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

show previous quotes

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler
This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

I’ve illuminated some additional methods of means to stack damage directly out of stealth that might protect those players.

No, there is no issue with a ganker killing a good player. Use it as a learning experience.

I rarely get ganked - so rarely in fact that I basically never deposit my Tel Var in IC. If a ganker has a good enough combo and is aware enough to kill me at the right time, then good on them. I look at when I got ganked, what they killed me with, and what I could have done to survive.

Dying from a gank is almost always the target's fault - it means you weren't buffed, do not have enough defense on your build, or were not careful enough. Often it's a mix between those. Learn from it.

This guy gets it.

Bottom line is the LT button is OP. Learn to use it in PVP.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 20

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

show previous quotes

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

Given it seems ZoS's stance that ganking is bad against chunky targets, they should make sure to end all forms of gank damage stacking potential to ensure only the bads get ganked, while the goods can always keep their HP topped up within GCD windows.

Spoiler
This already happens. Good players keep their buffs up, even when standing around, soft stack to avoid blowing up the group, and hold LT which mitigates a massive amount of damage, even from a ganker attacking from stealth. Most people who aren't bombers or gankers themselves run 30k+ hp (usually an indication that you also have a fair amount of heavy armor), meaning you are not a prime gank target either. Anyone who is getting ganked at this point is either just bad or they're a decent player that got caught unawares or flat footed, or was afk.

And don’t you see a problem with good players getting caught off guard-flat footed getting ganked?

I’ve illuminated some additional methods of means to stack damage directly out of stealth that might protect those players.

No, there is no issue with a ganker killing a good player. Use it as a learning experience.

I rarely get ganked - so rarely in fact that I basically never deposit my Tel Var in IC. If a ganker has a good enough combo and is aware enough to kill me at the right time, then good on them. I look at when I got ganked, what they killed me with, and what I could have done to survive.

Dying from a gank is almost always the target's fault - it means you weren't buffed, do not have enough defense on your build, or were not careful enough. Often it's a mix between those. Learn from it.

I mean I agree with you, but wouldn't a formal handshake before fighting be much more honorable?

It's an open world PvP game with 0 standardization. If you want honor, go to Stormhaven to duel or find a group the same size as yours to organize a GvG. Expecting any amount of "honor" in a game with uneven numbers of combatants, a vast spectrum of builds and skill levels, and a built in stealth mechanic is ludicrous.