Should ball groups violate TOS?

Avran_Sylt · March 16

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

Avran_Sylt · March 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

I can totally relate to the OP's point, although not entirely. Ball groups are not, according to the letter of the law, exploiting.

But, ZOS has neglected balance and performance issues in Cyrodiil for so long that ZOS has created a situation where coordinated groups can stack so many heals and shields that they are indestructible, just as though they were exploiting. It's hard to look at a group of 12 players having 12 instances of vigor, 12 instances of radiating regen and 12 instances of two different shields on all 12 group members as anything other than exploiting at this point.

To date, even though this issue has been discussed ad infinitum for more than several years on this forum, ZOS has yet to comment on the problem. So it's not exploiting in a ToS violating way, but it absolutely is exploiting a broken system that ZOS refuses to fix/balance. They haven't even admitted their neglect let alone the impacts on Cyrodiil their neglect has had on performance and the joy sucking ball groups exploiting the system ZOS allows to exist.

There is no debating that reducing shield and heal stacking to only one instance of each HoT and shield per player at any given time would greatly reduce server load and improve performance. So why hasn't ZOS even tried a fix that is so obvious and begged for over years?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

This is my question as well. Why isn't there any focus on fixing the few sets and issues causing such imbalance in Cyrodiil instead of starting over from scratch with a very dumbed down template version of cyrodiil?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

iirc the vengeance tests are about server performance, not about game balance.

This doesn't excuse not addressing things like Rush, snowtreaders and heal/shield stacking mechanics that have enabled current ball group imbalance for such a long time, but something does need to be done about performance in cyrodiil in general (that has gotten much worse this patch) as well as addressing game balance.

Well I think they are certainly actively working on it. Strangely enough, there was a tri-faction battle for alessia tonight that had pretty much the majority of each faction fighting in the area (thank goodness that the groups decided to fight and not cut off resources for the most part until after it was over). And while the performance was absolute trash (and I have noticed oddities (possibly related to removal of queuing ability casts)... There didn't seem to be much zone chatting (at least the AD side) about disconnects. So maybe that PTB vengeance test helped a bit with the diagnostics they received? (Or just a lack of DDOS attacks, dunno)

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · March 16

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

The problem is an average player can join a group and become nearly unkillable and do 2-3x the damage they would normally do solo. Basically you become Emperor by joining a 12 player group in Cyrodiil and arguably stronger.

Stridig · March 16

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

The problem is an average player can join a group and become nearly unkillable and do 2-3x the damage they would normally do solo. Basically you become Emperor by joining a 12 player group in Cyrodiil and arguably stronger.

Uhhh..... That's the point. Group play is literally the point. Also, coordinated group play is nowhere near as easy and full of no skill people as those who don't play in them say they are. Is stuff broken? Yes. Hopefully they can fix broken things and balance the game better. But I assure you, when they do, good players in coordinated groups will still win fights.

Stamicka · March 16

Stridig wrote: »

Also, coordinated group play is nowhere near as easy and full of no skill people as those who don't play in them say they are. Is stuff broken? Yes. Hopefully they can fix broken things and balance the game better. But I assure you, when they do, good players in coordinated groups will still win fights.

What part is requiring skill though? The healing and shields make sure that you don't have to worry much when you take damage. Rush of Agony pulls everyone in the radius in one spot, so it just takes an ult and someone with whirling blades and VD to get 10+ kills.

Basically, follow crown, ult when told, press your HoTs at least every 10 seconds... there's nothing high skill there.

I also think that most of the people who are currently ballgrouping are selected for in a way. I don't know of many good players that would group with 11 other people. At this point, a 12 man in Cyrodiil is probably over one tenth of the alliance total population. Ballgroups frequently outnumber people while they look for the singular large fight on the map since population caps are low.

I don't think many good players would find that fun. They tend to like being challenged and outnumbered, not the other way around. Good players also wouldn't need 12 people to accomplish what a ballgroup does. A group of 6 would be plenty strong enough.

BXR_Lonestar · March 17

@WaywardArgonian

HoTs do much more than just neutralizing potshots and random siege. Like I said before, the prevalence of Echoing Vigor and, to a lesser extent, Radiating Regen, translates into GvG scenarios. GvGs are all about exchanging burst damage; there is no siege in sight, and there are no random potshots apart from light/heavy attacks for ult gen. Yet in these scenarios too, it is Vigor that does the most healing by a comfortable margin.

What world are you playing in where you get to fight GvG without random players on the opposing alliance not interfering with the fight? I can count on one hand the amount of times we've actually gotten to take on another group without ANY outside interference (Random players, seige, or both). Especially in my server where my alliance is generally outnumbered by multiple bars, we are ALWAYS outnumbered, and we are always fighting more than just one group. Either its a huge pack of 20-30+ randoms, or its a ballgroup supported by another 15+ randoms, or its multiple ballgroups that we're trying to outmaneuver. We never get to just maneuver without someone trying to take shots at us - bombs, seige, random groups thinking they want to try to be a hero. GvG combat with no interference almost never happens.

And with respect to HOT stacks improving survivability at the Mesh Point, I'm not arguing that every single source of heal doesn't help - they do. Every source of healing is obviously going to help survivability, but having all the burst heals on point at the mesh point is by far more important to survivability than the HOTS are because even the HOT Stacks get overwhelmed relatively easily in that burst damage phase. Is that a difficult thing to do? Well yes, which is why playing in a BG isn't easy, and when our healers are not on point, we can tell. When they're on point, we can tell. I can't tell you how we survive in those big burst damage instances without giving away group strategy, but I can tell you that even if our HOT stacking isn't built up - say we get ambushed as we're trying to get organized after running between keeps - we're still able to survive those hits based on our burst heals and other skills.

And lastly, as I pointed out, HOT stacking is available to everyone, so I'm not sure why this is such a big issue.

LadyGP · March 17

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

What are your thoughts on when the wall of AD zerg pushes from Roe all the way up and gates DC?

Is that fun for DC? Ball groups are usually what can push the zerg back down to their region.

Ball groups are annoying only because people never switch up how they tackle them. They all stack in a blob and chase them around in a straight line. No one switches up skills/sets to try to counter. Instead of complaining about ball groups (or zergs, or anything TBH) switch up the tactics. It's no different then boss fights in trials. You've got a different enemy with different setups. You can do the same thing for every situation.

Lastly - maybe one day pugs will learn to not chase and run in a straight line directly to a choke point... It's been 6 years... maybe year 7 is when it hits.

WaywardArgonian · March 17

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

What world are you playing in where you get to fight GvG without random players on the opposing alliance not interfering with the fight? I can count on one hand the amount of times we've actually gotten to take on another group without ANY outside interference (Random players, seige, or both).

In the world of PC/EU. It is simple. You message the other guild 'hey, want to GvG?', you meet at a specific location off the beaten path, and you fight each other for 30-60 minutes. When you kill 4-5 of the other group, you let them rez, and you go again. After about 20 fights, you say 'gg' and go fight zergs again. It is a common occurrence in many ballgroup runs and helps everyone practice their skills and timing.

I can't tell you how we survive in those big burst damage instances without giving away group strategy, but I can tell you that even if our HOT stacking isn't built up - say we get ambushed as we're trying to get organized after running between keeps - we're still able to survive those hits based on our burst heals and other skills.

You hold block, 1-2 players pop a defensive ultimate and/or Negate and you all walk out of the damage point while block-casting burst heals. It isn't rocket science, I play in ballgroups too.

As for the rest of your post: try ganking someone with 12 Vigor stacks on them and see how their healthbar literally doesn't move. That is the power of HoT stacking and it is the basis of every ballgroup. A basis on which you build to achieve more damage and survivability, sure, but without it, ballgroups would be infinitely weaker.

HatchetHaro · March 17

The way I see it, ball groups are a symptom of a combat design problem.

Yes, organized play is part of the game and should offer advantages over just pugging it, but if taking this organized play to its very reasonable limit (I.E. making a ball group) creates such a wide chasm in performance (a handful of unkillable people winning against zergs of 1vXers), we start to have discussions about absurdities like "making ball groups illegal".

It is a combat design problem to have such a wide gap in play, plain and simple. This is why I'm actually both excited for and dreading the upcoming Vengeance campaign; I'm excited for its potential to level the playing field between ball groups and pugs, to play without such a wide gap in stats and rely more on personal skill and group strategy to gain the upper hand in battle, and at the same time I am dreading how ZOS is deliberately only doing it for testing performance and nothing more.

LadyGP · March 17

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

What world are you playing in where you get to fight GvG without random players on the opposing alliance not interfering with the fight? I can count on one hand the amount of times we've actually gotten to take on another group without ANY outside interference (Random players, seige, or both).

In the world of PC/EU. It is simple. You message the other guild 'hey, want to GvG?', you meet at a specific location off the beaten path, and you fight each other for 30-60 minutes. When you kill 4-5 of the other group, you let them rez, and you go again. After about 20 fights, you say 'gg' and go fight zergs again. It is a common occurrence in many ballgroup runs and helps everyone practice their skills and timing.

I can't tell you how we survive in those big burst damage instances without giving away group strategy, but I can tell you that even if our HOT stacking isn't built up - say we get ambushed as we're trying to get organized after running between keeps - we're still able to survive those hits based on our burst heals and other skills.

You hold block, 1-2 players pop a defensive ultimate and/or Negate and you all walk out of the damage point while block-casting burst heals. It isn't rocket science, I play in ballgroups too.

As for the rest of your post: try ganking someone with 12 Vigor stacks on them and see how their healthbar literally doesn't move. That is the power of HoT stacking and it is the basis of every ballgroup. A basis on which you build to achieve more damage and survivability, sure, but without it, ballgroups would be infinitely weaker.

Agree with this - we message/get messaged to GvG all the time. We actually don't get a lot of interference and often times will get randoms sitting on rocks or /ownthrone watching us while we GvG - it's pretty funny.

As for avoiding DMG... it's just knowing when the big dmg is coming, when to use barriers/healing ults, etc. Situational awareness is 9/10 of what makes ball groups good vs not good. If you got someone just spamming heals/barriers and nothing is going on and now they are gassed when you need it.. you're SOL.

Good point on the vigors - add shields to the mix and it's really difficult to cut through that.

As a ballgrouper - I'd like to see ZoS make some changes to the amount of shields that can be stacked on a player at a time and maybe some small tweaks to heal stacking (you pugs/solos get heal stacking too you just don't realize it).

Make it so ball groups can still be a thing but make it so it's harder for ball groups to stay alive. Make it so we have to be more deliberate with when we use ultis and heals etc. I think there is a middle ground for making people happy who dislike ball groups while also allowing ball groups to still be a thing.

(I see a lot of people here who complain about ball groups but are also the same people in zone chat who beg for a ball group to come clear out another ball group from a keep FWIW).

Vulsahdaal · March 17

LadyGP wrote: »

Ball groups are annoying only because people never switch up how they tackle them. They all stack in a blob and chase them around in a straight line. No one switches up skills/sets to try to counter. Instead of complaining about ball groups (or zergs, or anything TBH) switch up the tactics. It's no different then boss fights in trials. You've got a different enemy with different setups. You can do the same thing for every situation.

If only we could do the same thing for every situation.

Its most definitely different from a boss fight in a trial. With a trial boss, you know where and when it will appear. You can plan ahead of time and be equipped with what you need. But even if it were an unfamiliar boss, after a wipe you can slot different skills/sets that may work better.

This can not happen in Cyro. I actually have a set of skills I use for fighting ball groups only. They are useless in any other fighting. Every time I enter Cyro I have to make that choice which skills to slot ahead of time because once in, I will be stuck in combat (even if the 'combat' took place 20 minutes ago on the other side of the map) and basically Ill have to keep the same skills slotted until I log out.

So if youre wondering why we dont switch setups for a ball group, this is most likely the reason.

Stridig · March 17

Stamicka wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Also, coordinated group play is nowhere near as easy and full of no skill people as those who don't play in them say they are. Is stuff broken? Yes. Hopefully they can fix broken things and balance the game better. But I assure you, when they do, good players in coordinated groups will still win fights.

What part is requiring skill though? The healing and shields make sure that you don't have to worry much when you take damage. Rush of Agony pulls everyone in the radius in one spot, so it just takes an ult and someone with whirling blades and VD to get 10+ kills.

Basically, follow crown, ult when told, press your HoTs at least every 10 seconds... there's nothing high skill there.

I also think that most of the people who are currently ballgrouping are selected for in a way. I don't know of many good players that would group with 11 other people. At this point, a 12 man in Cyrodiil is probably over one tenth of the alliance total population. Ballgroups frequently outnumber people while they look for the singular large fight on the map since population caps are low.

I don't think many good players would find that fun. They tend to like being challenged and outnumbered, not the other way around. Good players also wouldn't need 12 people to accomplish what a ballgroup does. A group of 6 would be plenty strong enough.

I draw two conclusions after reading your reply

1) You've never played in a "ball group" so you have no clue what you're talking about

Or

2) You have played in a "ball group" that constantly got wrecked because you only pushed one button every ten seconds or so

JustLovely · March 17

CrazyKitty wrote: »

I can totally relate to the OP's point, although not entirely. Ball groups are not, according to the letter of the law, exploiting.

But, ZOS has neglected balance and performance issues in Cyrodiil for so long that ZOS has created a situation where coordinated groups can stack so many heals and shields that they are indestructible, just as though they were exploiting. It's hard to look at a group of 12 players having 12 instances of vigor, 12 instances of radiating regen and 12 instances of two different shields on all 12 group members as anything other than exploiting at this point.

To date, even though this issue has been discussed ad infinitum for more than several years on this forum, ZOS has yet to comment on the problem. So it's not exploiting in a ToS violating way, but it absolutely is exploiting a broken system that ZOS refuses to fix/balance. They haven't even admitted their neglect let alone the impacts on Cyrodiil their neglect has had on performance and the joy sucking ball groups exploiting the system ZOS allows to exist.

There is no debating that reducing shield and heal stacking to only one instance of each HoT and shield per player at any given time would greatly reduce server load and improve performance. So why hasn't ZOS even tried a fix that is so obvious and begged for over years?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I couldn't agree more. Awesome post! ....too bad ZOS just ignores these repeated pleas and legitimate questions.

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

LadyGP · March 17

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Ball groups are annoying only because people never switch up how they tackle them. They all stack in a blob and chase them around in a straight line. No one switches up skills/sets to try to counter. Instead of complaining about ball groups (or zergs, or anything TBH) switch up the tactics. It's no different then boss fights in trials. You've got a different enemy with different setups. You can do the same thing for every situation.

If only we could do the same thing for every situation.

Its most definitely different from a boss fight in a trial. With a trial boss, you know where and when it will appear. You can plan ahead of time and be equipped with what you need. But even if it were an unfamiliar boss, after a wipe you can slot different skills/sets that may work better.

This can not happen in Cyro. I actually have a set of skills I use for fighting ball groups only. They are useless in any other fighting. Every time I enter Cyro I have to make that choice which skills to slot ahead of time because once in, I will be stuck in combat (even if the 'combat' took place 20 minutes ago on the other side of the map) and basically Ill have to keep the same skills slotted until I log out.

So if youre wondering why we dont switch setups for a ball group, this is most likely the reason.

It's not really different than a trial. Once you learn the overall movement styles of ball groups you can basically predict exactly where they are going to go during a fight based on what the field looks like. It's gotten to the point where our raid lead will make mistake when making a call.. but because we all know what/where he is going to go next.. no one goes to where he called (including him because he didn't realize he made an incorrect call).

Sure... you're not going to be able to say at 1 minute 55 seconds ball group X will be hitting glade. But once they hit glade... you pretty much know exactly where/how the fight will go.

As for the sticky combat bug.. sure that is valid - although 20 minutes is wild. The most mine has been is a minute or two. You can always jump in the rive and let the fishs have snack.. or go to cheesemonger. Yeah, this isn't ideal and as Kevin has said they are already working on the fix for this but if you really wanted to fight a ball group there are ways to do it.

Just being honest here and mean zero disrespect towards anyone in this thread - people just like to complain about ball groups but the vast majority don't put in a lick of effort to fight them. You're not going to take an (stream team members) build and beat down a ball group with it - sorry.

JustLovely · March 17

Stridig wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Also, coordinated group play is nowhere near as easy and full of no skill people as those who don't play in them say they are. Is stuff broken? Yes. Hopefully they can fix broken things and balance the game better. But I assure you, when they do, good players in coordinated groups will still win fights.

What part is requiring skill though? The healing and shields make sure that you don't have to worry much when you take damage. Rush of Agony pulls everyone in the radius in one spot, so it just takes an ult and someone with whirling blades and VD to get 10+ kills.

Basically, follow crown, ult when told, press your HoTs at least every 10 seconds... there's nothing high skill there.

I also think that most of the people who are currently ballgrouping are selected for in a way. I don't know of many good players that would group with 11 other people. At this point, a 12 man in Cyrodiil is probably over one tenth of the alliance total population. Ballgroups frequently outnumber people while they look for the singular large fight on the map since population caps are low.

I don't think many good players would find that fun. They tend to like being challenged and outnumbered, not the other way around. Good players also wouldn't need 12 people to accomplish what a ballgroup does. A group of 6 would be plenty strong enough.

I draw two conclusions after reading your reply

1) You've never played in a "ball group" so you have no clue what you're talking about

Or

2) You have played in a "ball group" that constantly got wrecked because you only pushed one button every ten seconds or so

I see Stamicka in Cyrodiil on a regular basis, and their post is an accurate description of what's happening.

WaywardArgonian · March 17

Stamicka wrote: »

What part is requiring skill though?

I can go over all the different aspects of ballgroup play that are skill-based if you are truly interested to know, but for now I will say the following:

I agree to an extent that 12-man group play is too easy, but that is provided that at least a good chunk of those players are actually skilled and are able to carry that group with heals and damage in scenarios where they are fighting a faction stack or another ballgroup.

There are still large skill differences between individual ballgroup players though. Excelling at your given role in a ballgroup does require you to be a skilled player. When there is a new player in the group who is not as experienced at PVP, we do notice that they initially suffer a lot, dying easier, taking more damage, having lower numbers on just about everything, etc. It takes practice and skill to overcome that, and not every player is able to. Believe me, when you replace someone who excels in their class/role with someone who is merely okay, you can really notice the difference. If you replace just 2-3 key players in a group with second-choice replacements, you will notice your group dies easier, loses fights they'd normally win and can play a lot less aggressive. Some ballgroups will even outright cancel runs if a certain player is absent.

This proves that there is skill to it - a skillset that may sometimes be different from other forms of PVP for sure, but a skillset nonetheless. It's a skillset you can hone and get better at. If there was no skill involved, you could just replace a ballgroup player with someone playing a similar role in a casual guild and yield similar results. This does not work in practice.

I do think that, if someone only plays in 12-man ballgroups, they are limiting their exposure to what PVP has to offer and are likely to hit a skill ceiling. I always encourage players in our groups to play smallscale, solo, battlegrounds and/or join casual groups just to grow more familiar with their own skills, gear, class and role.

One thing we should acknowledge is that the current threshold to start a 12-man group and be somewhat successful is too low. It's pretty easy to build enough stats to kill a zerg these days. You will still eat dirt when fighting against other ballgroups or even smallscales, but those sorts of 'expose' moments will rarely be noticed by the Cyrodiil population at large. I'd be all for a few adjustments to make group content more challenging, but to say it takes no skill is a misconception.

JustLovely · March 17

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

What part is requiring skill though?

I can go over all the different aspects of ballgroup play that are skill-based if you are truly interested to know, but for now I will say the following:

I agree to an extent that 12-man group play is too easy, but that is provided that at least a good chunk of those players are actually skilled and are able to carry that group with heals and damage in scenarios where they are fighting a faction stack or another ballgroup.

There are still large skill differences between individual ballgroup players though. Excelling at your given role in a ballgroup does require you to be a skilled player. When there is a new player in the group who is not as experienced at PVP, we do notice that they initially suffer a lot, dying easier, taking more damage, having lower numbers on just about everything, etc. It takes practice and skill to overcome that, and not every player is able to. Believe me, when you replace someone who excels in their class/role with someone who is merely okay, you can really notice the difference. If you replace just 2-3 key players in a group with second-choice replacements, you will notice your group dies easier, loses fights they'd normally win and can play a lot less aggressive. Some ballgroups will even outright cancel runs if a certain player is absent.

This proves that there is skill to it - a skillset that may sometimes be different from other forms of PVP for sure, but a skillset nonetheless. It's a skillset you can hone and get better at. If there was no skill involved, you could just replace a ballgroup player with someone playing a similar role in a casual guild and yield similar results. This does not work in practice.

I do think that, if someone only plays in 12-man ballgroups, they are limiting their exposure to what PVP has to offer and are likely to hit a skill ceiling. I always encourage players in our groups to play smallscale, solo, battlegrounds and/or join casual groups just to grow more familiar with their own skills, gear, class and role.

One thing we should acknowledge is that the current threshold to start a 12-man group and be somewhat successful is too low. It's pretty easy to build enough stats to kill a zerg these days. You will still eat dirt when fighting against other ballgroups or even smallscales, but those sorts of 'expose' moments will rarely be noticed by the Cyrodiil population at large. I'd be all for a few adjustments to make group content more challenging, but to say it takes no skill is a misconception.

Please explain why ball groups need to, or at least choose to run RoA. I haven't seen a ball group that doesn't run the set since its introduction.

Stamicka · March 17

Stridig wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Also, coordinated group play is nowhere near as easy and full of no skill people as those who don't play in them say they are. Is stuff broken? Yes. Hopefully they can fix broken things and balance the game better. But I assure you, when they do, good players in coordinated groups will still win fights.

What part is requiring skill though? The healing and shields make sure that you don't have to worry much when you take damage. Rush of Agony pulls everyone in the radius in one spot, so it just takes an ult and someone with whirling blades and VD to get 10+ kills.

Basically, follow crown, ult when told, press your HoTs at least every 10 seconds... there's nothing high skill there.

I also think that most of the people who are currently ballgrouping are selected for in a way. I don't know of many good players that would group with 11 other people. At this point, a 12 man in Cyrodiil is probably over one tenth of the alliance total population. Ballgroups frequently outnumber people while they look for the singular large fight on the map since population caps are low.

I don't think many good players would find that fun. They tend to like being challenged and outnumbered, not the other way around. Good players also wouldn't need 12 people to accomplish what a ballgroup does. A group of 6 would be plenty strong enough.

I draw two conclusions after reading your reply

1) You've never played in a "ball group" so you have no clue what you're talking about

Or

2) You have played in a "ball group" that constantly got wrecked because you only pushed one button every ten seconds or so

Which part is wrong? They do heal stack, they do use rush of agony and VD, they do follow crown and use coordinated ults. I also watch a lot of these groups outnumber others which is inevitable with the current population of Cyrodiil. Ball groups lost their purpose once Cyrodiil could no longer hold 900+ people and 24 man groups.

I don't play in 12 man groups, but I've used coordinated sets and crossheals as a 4 man. Even with 4 people it was very clear to me how strong cross healing is. I also had like 1500 more weapon damage than I would normally have due to set/class coordination. My crit resist was ridiculously high and I had 30% AOE damage mitigation so I felt extremely tanky too.

I don't delude myself into thinking that playing that way takes a lot of skill. It's broken and it's poorly designed. If cross healing and set coordination is strong in a 4 or 5 man group, then I can tell you for a fact that it's insanely broken with 12 people, even overkill.

ArctosCethlenn · March 17

JustLovely wrote: »

Please explain why ball groups need to, or at least choose to run RoA. I haven't seen a ball group that doesn't run the set since its introduction.

Balls choose to run agony for the same reason people aren't out there running hunding's rage and twin sisters. It's the best initiation set available, yeah everyone knows its overtuned.

Ball builds are comped and min-maxxed just like a 1vx build or any other build, pve or pvp.

LadyGP · March 17

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Please explain why ball groups need to, or at least choose to run RoA. I haven't seen a ball group that doesn't run the set since its introduction.

Balls choose to run agony for the same reason people aren't out there running hunding's rage and twin sisters. It's the best initiation set available, yeah everyone knows its overtuned.

Ball builds are comped and min-maxxed just like a 1vx build or any other build, pve or pvp.

Some of the scribing pulls work really well too tbh. They can reduce RoA and we will just switch to something else.

Avran_Sylt · March 17

LadyGP wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

What are your thoughts on when the wall of AD zerg pushes from Roe all the way up and gates DC?

Is that fun for DC? Ball groups are usually what can push the zerg back down to their region.

Ball groups are annoying only because people never switch up how they tackle them. They all stack in a blob and chase them around in a straight line. No one switches up skills/sets to try to counter. Instead of complaining about ball groups (or zergs, or anything TBH) switch up the tactics. It's no different then boss fights in trials. You've got a different enemy with different setups. You can do the same thing for every situation.

Lastly - maybe one day pugs will learn to not chase and run in a straight line directly to a choke point... It's been 6 years... maybe year 7 is when it hits.

Huh?

The bloke I was responding to isn't a ball-group player. They're part of the small 2-5man resource trolls that cutoff and flag keeps where no one else is/no other groups are there to oppose them.

As far as being gated, the question is if the combat itself was fun. And knowing AD, while DC would have been gated, it's likely that there would still have been a lot of give and take during combat and not something like running a train around Fare keep.

Ruschell · March 17

Ballgroups shouldn't exist, at least the way they're being used today in PVP, in my opinion, they really hurt the PVP experience, besides causing several connection problems and crashes when we're in the same area as them, the vast majority use set sploits and stacked healing. Currently, there's nothing you can do against a ballgroup.
That said, there is no fair play in a ballgroup, reason for a ban? Maybe not, as long as ZOS doesn't solve the problem with sets that pull through the wall and even if you block, abilities that stack multiple heals, PVP will not change, and we will have to deal with it...

WaywardArgonian · March 17

JustLovely wrote: »

Please explain why ball groups need to, or at least choose to run RoA. I haven't seen a ball group that doesn't run the set since its introduction.

Because it's the most efficient way to pull enemy players into one place.

LadyGP · March 17

kaioruschellub17_ESO wrote: »

Ballgroups shouldn't exist, at least the way they're being used today in PVP, in my opinion, they really hurt the PVP experience, besides causing several connection problems and crashes when we're in the same area as them, the vast majority use set sploits and stacked healing. Currently, there's nothing you can do against a ballgroup.
That said, there is no fair play in a ballgroup, reason for a ban? Maybe not, as long as ZOS doesn't solve the problem with sets that pull through the wall and even if you block, abilities that stack multiple heals, PVP will not change, and we will have to deal with it...

PvE groups can get the same heals...

Amottica · March 18

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

Seriously?

So, a skilled group that does well creates a worse experience for the "average PvP player." We do not complain when we lose a fight to an equal or larger group. We move on while figuring out how we could have succeeded against that group. As I explained to a guild in a different game, there is always someone better, which means there is always something to learn and room to improve.

That is PvP. Get used to it. Otherwise, there is PvE. Organize and rise to the challenge because we are not the problem!

Arrow312 · March 18

JustLovely wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

What part is requiring skill though?

I can go over all the different aspects of ballgroup play that are skill-based if you are truly interested to know, but for now I will say the following:

I agree to an extent that 12-man group play is too easy, but that is provided that at least a good chunk of those players are actually skilled and are able to carry that group with heals and damage in scenarios where they are fighting a faction stack or another ballgroup.

There are still large skill differences between individual ballgroup players though. Excelling at your given role in a ballgroup does require you to be a skilled player. When there is a new player in the group who is not as experienced at PVP, we do notice that they initially suffer a lot, dying easier, taking more damage, having lower numbers on just about everything, etc. It takes practice and skill to overcome that, and not every player is able to. Believe me, when you replace someone who excels in their class/role with someone who is merely okay, you can really notice the difference. If you replace just 2-3 key players in a group with second-choice replacements, you will notice your group dies easier, loses fights they'd normally win and can play a lot less aggressive. Some ballgroups will even outright cancel runs if a certain player is absent.

This proves that there is skill to it - a skillset that may sometimes be different from other forms of PVP for sure, but a skillset nonetheless. It's a skillset you can hone and get better at. If there was no skill involved, you could just replace a ballgroup player with someone playing a similar role in a casual guild and yield similar results. This does not work in practice.

I do think that, if someone only plays in 12-man ballgroups, they are limiting their exposure to what PVP has to offer and are likely to hit a skill ceiling. I always encourage players in our groups to play smallscale, solo, battlegrounds and/or join casual groups just to grow more familiar with their own skills, gear, class and role.

One thing we should acknowledge is that the current threshold to start a 12-man group and be somewhat successful is too low. It's pretty easy to build enough stats to kill a zerg these days. You will still eat dirt when fighting against other ballgroups or even smallscales, but those sorts of 'expose' moments will rarely be noticed by the Cyrodiil population at large. I'd be all for a few adjustments to make group content more challenging, but to say it takes no skill is a misconception.

Please explain why ball groups need to, or at least choose to run RoA. I haven't seen a ball group that doesn't run the set since its introduction.

Easy because with RoA you dont need a special place like a tower or rocks or something else where you can stack players.

Pixiepumpkin · March 18

Amottica wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

Seriously?

So, a skilled group that does well creates a worse experience for the "average PvP player." We do not complain when we lose a fight to an equal or larger group. We move on while figuring out how we could have succeeded against that group. As I explained to a guild in a different game, there is always someone better, which means there is always something to learn and room to improve.

That is PvP. Get used to it. Otherwise, there is PvE. Organize and rise to the challenge because we are not the problem!

But it's not a groups "skill" that is the issue, is gaming the system. At the end of the day everyone has to win at some point, this is game design 101. PVP in ESO is often if not the norm HEAVILY biased towards a premade group be it in cyrodiil or battlegrounds (I am sure you are aware that PVP guilds queue as a premade into solo queues inside of battlegrounds).

A player can only take so much 1 shotting, getting beaten to a pulp, losing, etc etc before they give up. Some of us realize its due to a rigged system (literally), others do not but the end result is the same. Less people engaging in that type of content.

ESO first and foremost is a product designed to make money. YA customer should never quit in frustration and find their entertainment elsewhere as this is where they will spend their limited amount of money. ESO PvP is niche for a reason, but it does not have to be. Maintaining the mindset that its ok for groups to steamroll other groups adnauseum will never allow PVP in ESO to become anything other than an exercise in frustration and a loss in player base.

Arrow312 · March 18

For me as a former BG Player (take a break before RoE Meta) this set is a complete game changer for every BG. Before RoA you have to pull the enemies into tower , between Rocks or somewhere else to stack them and dont let them go. now you can set your combo everywhere on the battlefield you dont have to stack ppl. You can run into the grp form the side and pull them together without any purple toilett flushing AoE. Pull, CC, Death it never was so easy.

Tbf this statement doesnt mean everyone can put this set on and 12 randoms players will be the new avengers. But if you play in a BG before this set makes things a lot easier because you can dump everywhere you want.

Without this set BG will also be a problem but i think one you can handle, because you know what they do.

LadyGP · March 18

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.

You lure casuals and solos to your groups and stomp on them by flagging areas away from the horde. Sure, it makes your horde need to deal with less, but usually means there's less unorganized casual fodder to help pad kills for the casuals of your horde, so they do less PvP while you hoard these players mostly to yourself and ultimately result in less horde-fighting overall.

You pretty much play PvDoor and PvE against underequipped players until an equally coordinated group or the zerg comes to kill you because you screwed up their spawn-lines and can't get back into the fight quickly again all the while dunking on those boneheaded enough to try and help their faction unorganized.

Tactics or not, you're basically just making the PvP experience worse for the average PvP player. Good for your team, but help prevent wide-scale battles overall. In Real Life: amazing. In a game: annoying.

I respect the skill and coordination, but dear lord you're annoying whenever things get hectic and fun, it's like whenever there's a large battle going on there's some killjoys that seem to say "no, you don't get to spawn". Though, I suppose there is Battlegrounds to sate those that want constant fighting.

I also do love ESO's brilliant idea that the losing faction needs to lose harder with Keep/Scroll/Emperor factionwide stat bonuses. Let's mechanically punish failure ontop of the failure itself!

Seriously?

So, a skilled group that does well creates a worse experience for the "average PvP player." We do not complain when we lose a fight to an equal or larger group. We move on while figuring out how we could have succeeded against that group. As I explained to a guild in a different game, there is always someone better, which means there is always something to learn and room to improve.

That is PvP. Get used to it. Otherwise, there is PvE. Organize and rise to the challenge because we are not the problem!

But it's not a groups "skill" that is the issue, is gaming the system. At the end of the day everyone has to win at some point, this is game design 101. PVP in ESO is often if not the norm HEAVILY biased towards a premade group be it in cyrodiil or battlegrounds (I am sure you are aware that PVP guilds queue as a premade into solo queues inside of battlegrounds).

A player can only take so much 1 shotting, getting beaten to a pulp, losing, etc etc before they give up. Some of us realize its due to a rigged system (literally), others do not but the end result is the same. Less people engaging in that type of content.

ESO first and foremost is a product designed to make money. YA customer should never quit in frustration and find their entertainment elsewhere as this is where they will spend their limited amount of money. ESO PvP is niche for a reason, but it does not have to be. Maintaining the mindset that its ok for groups to steamroll other groups adnauseum will never allow PVP in ESO to become anything other than an exercise in frustration and a loss in player base.

Fundamentaly disagree with almost everything you said here - aside from ESO is a product.

Gaming 101 isn't that everyone has to win at some point. Some of the most succesful games out there are near impossible to beat - that is why the top mods downloaded for them are ones that make it easier. I have a healthy amount of games in my catalogue that I haven't been able to beat yet and still enjoy them. One could argue that the "everyone has to win at some point" mindset is what started the dumbing down of ESO and contributed to the current stage of the game from a combat perspective (that is a whole different conversation that I'm not trying to have).

I struggle to think of any game out there that isn't "biased towards a premade group". It's just a fact that a core group of people who have played the game for many years together, know each others tendancies, are in sync with one another, spend hours post raid looking at logs seeing how they can improve, theory craft till their brain melts, etc, will almost ALWAYS beat a group of pugs/zerglings that just throw on some gear and run around cyro throwing minimal amount of damnage on people. Simply from a incoming vs outgoing dps/heals perspective... the math almost never maths to where that zergling is going to wipe the core group. That doesn't me it's flawed game design - it's just the nature of humans. Those that put in the time/effort are often rewarded in some form - no different in video games.

To your point about being one shot and giving up - I'd say that kind of comes back to the player and their mindset. Are they the kind of person that gets challanged and likes to overcome it or are they the kind of person that hits a brick wall and desides to just turn around (give up?). Not saying there is anything wrong with either kind of person just asking the question. I think it's unrealistic to expect someone to come into Cyro and just be good right out of the gate without putting nay time/effort into it. If a player gets frustrated and gives up because they lost a battle.. well that isn't ZoS fault.. that says more about that person in general. Could the barrier to entry be improved - sure - then lets have that conversation. But simply complaining about ball groups because a pug/zergling gets frustrated isn't the way to go about it.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

Pixiepumpkin · March 18

LadyGP wrote:

Gaming 101 isn't that everyone has to win at some point. Some of the most succesful games out there are near impossible to beat - that is why the top mods downloaded for them are ones that make it easier. I have a healthy amount of games in my catalogue that I haven't been able to beat yet and still enjoy them. One could argue that the "everyone has to win at some point" mindset is what started the dumbing down of ESO and contributed to the current stage of the game from a combat perspective (that is a whole different conversation that I'm not trying to have).

Players needing to "win/be rewarded" is literally, I mean LITERALLY part of game design education. Taught in the first semester. Its 101 and it's deeply rooted in psychology.

LadyGP wrote:

I struggle to think of any game out there that isn't "biased towards a premade group". It's just a fact that a core group of people who have played the game for many years together, know each others tendancies, are in sync with one another, spend hours post raid looking at logs seeing how they can improve, theory craft till their brain melts, etc, will almost ALWAYS beat a group of pugs/zerglings that just throw on some gear and run around cyro throwing minimal amount of damnage on people. Simply from a incoming vs outgoing dps/heals perspective... the math almost never maths to where that zergling is going to wipe the core group. That doesn't me it's flawed game design - it's just the nature of humans. Those that put in the time/effort are often rewarded in some form - no different in video games.

WoW battlegrounds are large enough in player size and varied enough you rarely see full premades. Defintely not back to back. I rarely saw full premades in SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer Online (RIP).

The point is, premades SHOULD NOT face against pugs. And its all for the reasons you assert, its inherently an unfair advantage over pugs.

Now premade vs premade, where your group A that has played together for years against unprepared group B, sure have fun all day long. But premade vs pug ALWAYS ends up in seal clubbing. And that, is not fun for the clubbed group.

You are presenting an inherent bias towards your friends, your premade, how you play. For effective suggestions that help gameplay and improve a game one must approach the topic from an unbiased perspective.

LadyGP wrote:

To your point about being one shot and giving up - I'd say that kind of comes back to the player and their mindset. Are they the kind of person that gets challanged and likes to overcome it or are they the kind of person that hits a brick wall and desides to just turn around (give up?). Not saying there is anything wrong with either kind of person just asking the question.

My statment is made from a psychological perspective. Sure, I think many people like a challenge and work to overcome in, but there is also a limit to a persons patience. If the same bomber is killing your entire group, over and over for literally weeks or months on end in battlegrounds (I dont do cyrodiil) at some point you realize there is little you are going to do to take them down in an effective mannor. The onus here falls on ZOS for ensuring gameplay is fair and balanced, if that is not done, then the player has one of two options. A. Continue being a free punching bag and handing out free AP to the premade team or B. Stop engaging and find something fun and productive, becaue losing over and over and over and over is not only not productive, its not fun.

LadyGP wrote:

I think it's unrealistic to expect someone to come into Cyro and just be good right out of the gate without putting nay time/effort into it. If a player gets frustrated and gives up because they lost a battle.. well that isn't ZoS fault.. that says more about that person in general. Could the barrier to entry be improved - sure - then lets have that conversation. But simply complaining about ball groups because a pug/zergling gets frustrated isn't the way to go about it.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

Actually, the balance of the game and its systems relies solely on ZOS, its not the players making design decisions, coding, making art, or paying for internet.