El_Borracho wrote: »

Group finder is not made for:

Quests
Reading every lorebook
Side bosses
DLC Hard Modes
Trial Hard Modes
Prog runs

Sorry, but that's the truth. While you could find some groups that would let you do these things, nobody should expect group finder to help you do these things. Its not rude, or mean, or intentional, or game breaking, or whatever. Group finder is a tool to get random people together to hopefully complete a dungeon or trial. It is not a guarantee that either will be accomplished.

I would totally disagree with you about the Group Finder.
You can put in the description that you need to do the quest for a certain dungeon and get the lore out of that dungeon. That's what the description box is for. The sad thing is people are apparently literate enough to read the title, but no literate enough to read the description given for a listing.

C_Inside wrote: »

What I really want to know is why do questers/casual players even care about the quests in these group dungeons? They're all the same. You talk to a generic NPC that has problem that can ONLY be fixed by killing the last boss. There is no deviation from this format. You can't betray the quest giver and side with the boss. You don't get different outcomes based on what prior zone stories you've done. You can't be evil and kill everyone. You can't use diplomacy and just talk your way out of combat. The only option you have is kill all the enemies/bosses. Every single dungeon is like this.

The quests for Lep Seclusa and Exiled Redoubt are exactly the same as the one in FG1. It's just the skin that's different.

So why do you care? You've already done every single dungeon quest as soon as you finish the one for FG1. Just grab the quest, spam through the pointless dialogue, and get the NPC to dispense his skill point at the end.

There are certain base game dungeons that you have to wait for the NPC to wander in and ramble at certain points of the dungeon. If you don't interact with the NPC, it bugs the quest and can't be finished. DLC dungeons are different. This is why ZOS needs to go back and eliminate those requirements in base game dungeons so all you have to do is complete the dungeon.

Dragonnord wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Barovia87 wrote: »

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation...

Their expectation is completely out of reality. That's why they don't get what they expect.

If they expect that a player that already did Direfrost Keep 600 times will wait for someone to quest/roleplay in the dungeon, their expectations are out-of-this-world wrong.

Also, there is no sign in the dungeon entrance that forces players or tells players how the dungeon has to be run.

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.

Want to roleplay and quest? Go with players that want to roleplay and quest. Don't go with players that don't want to roleplay and quest.
 

If you want to speed run, then go with players that want to speed run. Setup a GF and list it as doing dungeon speed runs.
Speed runners do "force" others in a random group to do the dungeon their way unless they drop group, which is an expectation that is completely out of reality as you put it.
It's an MMO, dungeons are group events, not selfish solo activities. If you don't care about anybody else in your group, then don't queue for any group activities. It also says a lot about the individual that doesn't care about the rest of the group they're in.

First, as I already stated, I'm not a speed runner.

Second, everything you said goes the other way too, you know.
 

Not everything, and that's the point people are making.

Nobody's arguing that a single person should be able to hold up the whole group because they want to listen to every word of dialouge and RP walk their way through the whole dungeon. A person who wants a slow experience like that should 100% make a group finder group and not expect randoms to slow down to that extent.

However, "I should be able to pick up the quest, spam E through the dialogue, and get my skill point" is a reasonable expectation people should have.

Unfortunately for those people, one single speedrunner can pull everyone to them at each boss, making sure that the tank has no resources to block and that the whole group is stun-locked constantly. A single speedrunner can force the rest of the group to do it their way.

I do like how these threads always devole into the strawman versions of "I need to get through the whole dungeon in 2 minutes because my house is currently on fire" or "I need to make sure my character wanders through at the slowest possible speeds because I have to analyze the wood grain textures of this random table" and there's no inbetween. I can assure you that there are people - probably most of the ones using the dungeon finder to get quests - who are just spamming E through the dialogue and have no idea what the story is (I have seen people on this forum suggest that ESO should add Falkreath as a zone and the story could be a Reachman invasion, not knowing that literally that exact thing is the story of the Falkreath dungeon) but you still just need a few seconds at the beginning to pick the quest up and then blast through a few extra things in some of the basegame dungeons. And even getting a 1-3 minute delay over the course of the whole dungeon is evidently too much to ask?

Again, one quester can ask if others will wait and people are allowed to say no. But one speedrunner doesn't have to ask in order to break the quest for three people who did want to take that extra 20 seconds to get their skill points. So yes, it should go both ways and it doesn't.

Dragonnord wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Barovia87 wrote: »

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation...

Their expectation is completely out of reality. That's why they don't get what they expect.

If they expect that a player that already did Direfrost Keep 600 times will wait for someone to quest/roleplay in the dungeon, their expectations are out-of-this-world wrong.

Also, there is no sign in the dungeon entrance that forces players or tells players how the dungeon has to be run.

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.

Want to roleplay and quest? Go with players that want to roleplay and quest. Don't go with players that don't want to roleplay and quest.
 

If you want to speed run, then go with players that want to speed run. Setup a GF and list it as doing dungeon speed runs.
Speed runners do "force" others in a random group to do the dungeon their way unless they drop group, which is an expectation that is completely out of reality as you put it.
It's an MMO, dungeons are group events, not selfish solo activities. If you don't care about anybody else in your group, then don't queue for any group activities. It also says a lot about the individual that doesn't care about the rest of the group they're in.

First, as I already stated, I'm not a speed runner.

Second, everything you said goes the other way too, you know.
 

Not everything, and that's the point people are making.

Nobody's arguing that a single person should be able to hold up the whole group because they want to listen to every word of dialouge and RP walk their way through the whole dungeon. A person who wants a slow experience like that should 100% make a group finder group and not expect randoms to slow down to that extent.

However, "I should be able to pick up the quest, spam E through the dialogue, and get my skill point" is a reasonable expectation people should have.

Unfortunately for those people, one single speedrunner can pull everyone to them at each boss, making sure that the tank has no resources to block and that the whole group is stun-locked constantly. A single speedrunner can force the rest of the group to do it their way.

I do like how these threads always devole into the strawman versions of "I need to get through the whole dungeon in 2 minutes because my house is currently on fire" or "I need to make sure my character wanders through at the slowest possible speeds because I have to analyze the wood grain textures of this random table" and there's no inbetween. I can assure you that there are people - probably most of the ones using the dungeon finder to get quests - who are just spamming E through the dialogue and have no idea what the story is (I have seen people on this forum suggest that ESO should add Falkreath as a zone and the story could be a Reachman invasion, not knowing that literally that exact thing is the story of the Falkreath dungeon) but you still just need a few seconds at the beginning to pick the quest up and then blast through a few extra things in some of the basegame dungeons. And even getting a 1-3 minute delay over the course of the whole dungeon is evidently too much to ask?

Again, one quester can ask if others will wait and people are allowed to say no. But one speedrunner doesn't have to ask in order to break the quest for three people who did want to take that extra 20 seconds to get their skill points. So yes, it should go both ways and it doesn't.

I will respond what I responded on my very first post:

Don't want things to go random? Don't go with randoms.

Go with friends, guild mates, group formed in zone chat, group formed in Discord, create a customized group with the Group Tool, etc.

It's very easy to see how you are misconstrued as a speedrunner though - every time people talk about the systematic issues with the dungeon finder, you only respond "just use group finder!"

Yes. That's an option. As is making a group of friends or guildmates (which is what I do, since I hate pugging).

But the point of the argument is: why is it not an expectation for people who want a speedrun to use the group finder to do speedruns? Every other way to do dungeons (quest, RP, looting everything, picking your nose while blindfolded), people say "you can't expect that in a random group, so use the group finder." But speedrunners don't have to clear their plans with the rest of the group to get what they want, they can just dictate that they're doing a speedrun and nobody gets a choice.

So again, you said in your last post:

Dragonnord wrote: »

Second, everything you said goes the other way too, you know.

which is patently wrong if someone is a speedrunner since they can force everyone to do what they want. So why can a speedrunner dictate a run as a speedrun 100% of the time, and every other way (including "hey, ZOS put skill points in dungeons so give me 30 secs to grab the quest real quick") is considered a weird you-can't-do-this-without-a-signed-and-notarized-contract-from-three-other-people thing?

Again, I'm not arguing how to get these quests (or whatever else) done. That's not the topic. I'm arguing that one speedrunner has the power to overrule the rest of the group and force a speedrun while others have to hope people are considerate, so please respond to that argument instead.

Dragonnord wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Barovia87 wrote: »

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation...

Their expectation is completely out of reality. That's why they don't get what they expect.

If they expect that a player that already did Direfrost Keep 600 times will wait for someone to quest/roleplay in the dungeon, their expectations are out-of-this-world wrong.

Also, there is no sign in the dungeon entrance that forces players or tells players how the dungeon has to be run.

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.

Want to roleplay and quest? Go with players that want to roleplay and quest. Don't go with players that don't want to roleplay and quest.
 

If you want to speed run, then go with players that want to speed run. Setup a GF and list it as doing dungeon speed runs.
Speed runners do "force" others in a random group to do the dungeon their way unless they drop group, which is an expectation that is completely out of reality as you put it.
It's an MMO, dungeons are group events, not selfish solo activities. If you don't care about anybody else in your group, then don't queue for any group activities. It also says a lot about the individual that doesn't care about the rest of the group they're in.

First, as I already stated, I'm not a speed runner.

Second, everything you said goes the other way too, you know.
 

Not everything, and that's the point people are making.

Nobody's arguing that a single person should be able to hold up the whole group because they want to listen to every word of dialouge and RP walk their way through the whole dungeon. A person who wants a slow experience like that should 100% make a group finder group and not expect randoms to slow down to that extent.

However, "I should be able to pick up the quest, spam E through the dialogue, and get my skill point" is a reasonable expectation people should have.

Unfortunately for those people, one single speedrunner can pull everyone to them at each boss, making sure that the tank has no resources to block and that the whole group is stun-locked constantly. A single speedrunner can force the rest of the group to do it their way.

I do like how these threads always devole into the strawman versions of "I need to get through the whole dungeon in 2 minutes because my house is currently on fire" or "I need to make sure my character wanders through at the slowest possible speeds because I have to analyze the wood grain textures of this random table" and there's no inbetween. I can assure you that there are people - probably most of the ones using the dungeon finder to get quests - who are just spamming E through the dialogue and have no idea what the story is (I have seen people on this forum suggest that ESO should add Falkreath as a zone and the story could be a Reachman invasion, not knowing that literally that exact thing is the story of the Falkreath dungeon) but you still just need a few seconds at the beginning to pick the quest up and then blast through a few extra things in some of the basegame dungeons. And even getting a 1-3 minute delay over the course of the whole dungeon is evidently too much to ask?

Again, one quester can ask if others will wait and people are allowed to say no. But one speedrunner doesn't have to ask in order to break the quest for three people who did want to take that extra 20 seconds to get their skill points. So yes, it should go both ways and it doesn't.

I will respond what I responded on my very first post:

Don't want things to go random? Don't go with randoms.

Go with friends, guild mates, group formed in zone chat, group formed in Discord, create a customized group with the Group Tool, etc.

It's very easy to see how you are misconstrued as a speedrunner though - every time people talk about the systematic issues with the dungeon finder, you only respond "just use group finder!"

Yes. That's an option. As is making a group of friends or guildmates (which is what I do, since I hate pugging).

But the point of the argument is: why is it not an expectation for people who want a speedrun to use the group finder to do speedruns? Every other way to do dungeons (quest, RP, looting everything, picking your nose while blindfolded), people say "you can't expect that in a random group, so use the group finder." But speedrunners don't have to clear their plans with the rest of the group to get what they want, they can just dictate that they're doing a speedrun and nobody gets a choice.

So again, you said in your last post:

Dragonnord wrote: »

Second, everything you said goes the other way too, you know.

which is patently wrong if someone is a speedrunner since they can force everyone to do what they want. So why can a speedrunner dictate a run as a speedrun 100% of the time, and every other way (including "hey, ZOS put skill points in dungeons so give me 30 secs to grab the quest real quick") is considered a weird you-can't-do-this-without-a-signed-and-notarized-contract-from-three-other-people thing?

Again, I'm not arguing how to get these quests (or whatever else) done. That's not the topic. I'm arguing that one speedrunner has the power to overrule the rest of the group and force a speedrun while others have to hope people are considerate, so please respond to that argument instead.

So now it's "Why speed runners can dictate what to do inside a dungeon and questers can't?"

Open a new thread for that please.

By the way, that is exactly what you, me, questers, anyone, can't control.

Speed runners will continue to speed run, so anyone that doesn't want to deal with possible speed runners, I already said what they can do.

Well, let's check the OP:

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure this comes up often enough, but I am extremely annoyed by this last group. I have a new character who needs all the quest clears and qued for tempest island.. I say "quest" in chat and 2 still run past ignoring the beach objective, run to the first boss and pull me in breaking the quest. At this point clearly intentional behavior.

Why has this not been addressed? I stick through the rest of the dungeons I waste my time, I quit out I get que penalized wasting my time.. I am punished purely for the actions of others. I feel like there should be a way to report this behavior, since often enough people flat out ignore people who are either under-leveled or state they need the quest in chat. 10 years on and ZOS has never addressed it, so I'm not holding my breath for them fixing dungeons that can be quest broken by skipping.

It seems that "Why speed runners can dictate what to do inside a dungeon" is the topic of this thread. So yes, the topic is about speedrunners being able to break quests because they ignore others. Not "How can I get my quest?" So I do believe that this is the right topic for my argument.

So again: I'm arguing that one speedrunner has the power to overrule the rest of the group and force a speedrun while others have to hope people are considerate, which is a true statement. The solution would be for ZOS to either fix the basegame dungeon quests to allow you to just get the skill point even if you miss an NPC dialogue halfway through since you were pulled forward (which some of them have), or to prevent bosses or mobs from spawning or aggroing if someone was on the quest so that they can't be pulled until the person on the quest is there (which we have in Blessed Crucible since you can't aggro the giant until someone talks to him).
Or, you know, for everyone to be considerate of others, but that's not something we can hope for.

Just say "quest" at the group chat, then 90% people care about that.
But yea, rare careless player still exist.

If Group Finder were a reliable option, the Random Daily option wouldn't exist. Unfortunately the Random Daily rewards intended to entice players to help out struggling players just resulted in players only there to farm RND's for transmutes and XP. Hence the speedrunners.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

However, "I should be able to pick up the quest, spam E through the dialogue, and get my skill point" is a reasonable expectation people should have.

"Ought" and "is" are different things. Of course that is a reasonable expectation. And most players, me included, respect that. But in a huge pool of random players, you will have different kinds of players. You either need to accept that random is random, or work around it. Like many have said in this thread, there are tools to deal with this.

There are things players do that annoy other players. For example I don't like it when the group leader disbands the group at the end, even when we have a chat going on with other players. Just leave the group if you are not interested, no need to disband.

But that happens. And if I really need to continue the chit chat, I can contact the players via whisper. It's just an extra hassle, but there are tools for that.

Ph1p wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

I just wish to remind everyone that OP used the group finder and twp speed runners violated the conditions set forth in the group finder. FOR THAT ZOS should have some consequences for those two speed runners

Did OP actually say that? The thread is titled "Group Finder" but that could also mean the random "Dungeon Finder". Meanwhile, they did explicitly say that they "queued" for Tempest Island and wrote about having a quest in chat, which to me hints more at an RND group.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't want to imply that any behavior is fair game in an RND group. But there's a huge difference between ruining a custom group clearly marked as "Story" or "Quest" and speed-running through a random dungeon.

yes that specific instance was with the "Dungeon Finder: specific Dungeon". If i had run the other finder i would have had the ability to remove the offending members. not that i haven't seen similar behaviors in there as well.

however people rarely use that finder for normals, i have run entire dungeons solo before i had even one join before.. this is because of how the Dungeon finder provides rewards.

Why use Group finder for a random dungeon when you get rewards for using the "Dungeon" version? when i do undaunted dailies i just que random and hope its the undaunted, i get more Transmute crystals even if i dont get the undaunted daily.

all of this means the best way to get members for normal dungeons is using the Dungeon finder, but that people doing this are there to go as fast as possible more times than not, and there are no checks for those running quests to prevent the quests from breaking meaning only the Honor system applies. It makes your choice to either wait an absurd amount of time for Group finder to even be looked at, Running solo with a companion (not always possible in some dungeons), ask your guild or friends list hoping people are on.. or you can relatively quickly get people in the Dungeon finder.

Ultimately i have better luck with the Veteran selection of Dungeon finder doing quests than normals.. you still get rush obsessed but FAFO hits harder and i have seen groups fall apart because one member was rushing and pulling groups he couldn't handle and neither could the rest of the team.

its a problem, because one person being one way can unilaterally ruin the experience for 3 others, who have no say in the matter and often no recourse other than to try and remove the problematic individual.. the quester cannot break the dungeon for the speed runners, only slightly delay it. the speed runner can break the quest for the quester, no matter what the quester does to try and prevent it if the runner is determined enough. Its a one way relationship, and with so many people here victim blaming the person with the quest? seriously?

EDIT: why not have the skill point be awarded on killing the final boss of the dungoen rather than quest completion? for people in the situation i was in, i have no problem speedrunning but am there for the skillpoint, making sure clearing the dungoen rather than the quest would satisfy that condition would be better to me.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Its a one way relationship, and with so many people here victim blaming the person with the quest? seriously?

No one is victim blaming anyone because there is no victim in this situation. The only blame being given is aimed at the random pug group members for having a different way to play.

I have seen players being helpful and offering a lot of suggestions and solutions, and have even offered to help by running through this dungeon for the quest, which I will still do. Just let me know if you are interested.

Ph1p wrote: »

Did OP actually say that? The thread is titled "Group Finder" but that could also mean the random "Dungeon Finder".

People use Dungeon Finder (for random groups), Group Finder (for custom groups) and Random Group Finder (doesn't actually exist) interchangeably. From the context it reads like op means Dungeon Finder for random and/or specific normal dungeon.

edit: for example this: "I say "quest" in chat" - if the group is made in the actual Group Finder, why do you need to say quest in the chat? You should have set the purpose of the run as Story and written in the description that quest is the objective. Therefore, no, op was not using Group Finder, but Dungeon Finder.

It's not intentional people just want their dungeons done fast, and killing all the lamiyas at the beach is a long as time. I had many of my quest bug out due to going too fast, it can happen it's whatever just next time ill do it with friends not a huge deal.
It's not that someone wants to mess with you, people just want to rush for their 10 transmutes/daily exp and move on.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure this comes up often enough, but I am extremely annoyed by this last group. I have a new character who needs all the quest clears and qued for tempest island.. I say "quest" in chat and 2 still run past ignoring the beach objective, run to the first boss and pull me in breaking the quest. At this point clearly intentional behavior.

Why has this not been addressed? I stick through the rest of the dungeons I waste my time, I quit out I get que penalized wasting my time.. I am punished purely for the actions of others. I feel like there should be a way to report this behavior, since often enough people flat out ignore people who are either under-leveled or state they need the quest in chat. 10 years on and ZOS has never addressed it, so I'm not holding my breath for them fixing dungeons that can be quest broken by skipping.

Did you just says "Quest" with no context or did you speak up like and adult and ask "Hey I'm doing the Quest on this alt, do you mind if we don't run through?" If you just said quest and nobody say or understood the one word context I don't blame them. If you asked if you could do the quest and they disregarded you'll have to try again with another group.

I've run many toons since BETA and have never been told no when I ask the group to do the dungeon quest on an alt in chat.