Group Finder: Players skipping and intentionally breaking quests.

Barovia87

OP's frustration is valid in that a.) in my nearly 11 years in ESO I've certainly been frustrated with groups not allowing me to even skim the context of the quest I'm doing in the Dungeon, and b.) I've witnessed first hand how especially maddening that effect is for new players to contend with.

And, sure - find a Guild and only do Dungeons with like-minded people is a solution. But finding those like-minded people isn't always as easy or straight-forward as many more established players like to pretend, especially when you're just starting out. And the PuG Dungeon Finder is presented at level 10 to everyone as the de facto way to start engaging with that content. So "go digging through Guilds and start applying" is circuitous and unintuitive at best. I've heard from multiple people just starting out in ESO that getting directed to PuGs, and then being rushed through Dungeons by rude players put them off Dungeons for years/ever.

I made my peace years ago with the fact that people are selfish and impatient, and despite being a community-driven game, like to act like their fun is the only fun that matters. They simply don't wanna wait 2 whole extra minutes to allow people to read, and by gum: they aren't going to let you. I just roll my eyes now and go with it when people insist on doing Dungeons at a dead run. It's rude unless you've specifically set up a speed run &/or checked that everyone is on board, and it doesn't actually take that much extra time to be polite and accommodating to people on quests, new players, et cetera. I always try to pay attention and hang back for those people. But there's no way to stop people being impatient jerks in PuGs. I just look up quest dialogue if I'm curious at this point, and accept ignorance for the rest.

I think the only realistic way to deal with this is to expand the Companion system to allow people to do Dungeons with multiple Companions slotted. Realistically: I think Companion AI would need improvement alongside such a change to make it genuinely feasible for the average player. But then everyone has access to a way to take it at their own pace and avoid the negative aspects of the community when they so choose.

frogthroat

Barovia87 wrote: »

I made my peace years ago with the fact that people are selfish and impatient, and despite being a community-driven game, like to act like their fun is the only fun that matters. They simply don't wanna wait 2 whole extra minutes to allow people to read, and by gum: they aren't going to let you. I just roll my eyes now and go with it when people insist on doing Dungeons at a dead run. It's rude unless you've specifically set up a speed run &/or checked that everyone is on board, and it doesn't actually take that much extra time to be polite and accommodating to people on quests, new players, et cetera.

From the other perspective, this could read:
I made my peace years ago with the fact that people are selfish and do not respect other people's time, and despite being a community-driven game, like to act like their fun is the only fun that matters. They simply don't wanna get the random dungeon over with fast so they can do another one for the xp and the transmutes, and by gum: they aren't going to let you either. I just roll my eyes now and go with it when people insist on doing role playing in Dungeons. It's rude unless you've specifically set up a role playing/questing run &/or checked that everyone is on board waiting for you to read a lorebook cover to cover, and it does actually take too much extra time to be accommodating to people doing quests the slowest possible way when you do 20 RNDs in a row.

5 minutes extra time per dungeon means 100 extra minutes for 20 characters.

Neither way is the one and only correct way. Both have the time and place. In random dungeons all bets are off. That's why group finder exists.

I usually try to accommodate those who do a quest (if it is one of the base game dungeons that have not been fixed yet) and in general I do wait that the group is somewhat there before pulling anything. Sometimes I stop and chat at the end of the dungeon, especially if it is a new player. Sometimes I don't. What people need to understand is that when saying "your fun is not the only thing that matters" it also includes you yourself. Just like you have expectations of other people, you need to respect their time, too.

And although I am accommodating, I don't want to do forced role playing. Which has happened. With the previous dungeons, I was farming them as a tank. Did the dungeons like 70 times as a tank, just for the weapon at the end. On one run in Bedlam Veil noticed there was ready check popping up just before a trash pull. Ignored, because... a trash pull in normal difficulty? I think I noticed another one, but I didn't really pay attention. I just wanted to get the last weapons so my farming is over. And I am the tank so why is someone else initiating that anyway? Continued normally, just wanting to get the loot. But just before the second boss I got kicked. What? I checked the chat that I had closed in the beginning of the dungeon.

The guy initiating the check was the group leader. They were a group and I was the pug since they were missing a tank. And they wanted to do the quest, take their time. And most importantly wanted to do some weird RP where the leader initiates the attack on every. single. trash. pull. And since I ran it normally, as in, tank pulls when everyone is there, that wasn't good enough role playing.

That, I have to say, was one of the most disrespectful things I have encountered in this game. I can accommodate you so I don't break your quest, sure, no problem. But forcing me to RP against my will or get kicked? Yeah no.

Barovia87

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation in a video game. Speed-running at a dead run is not. People trying to read their quests isn't your major time loss factor in a PuG - it's the fact that you're choosing to run 20 PuGs in a day. That's on you. That's a long-winded and tiresome false equivalency, @frogthroat . But continue pretending they're the same thing, I guess.

Melivar

While this can be frustrating for sure *shakes fist at Volenfall quest* when you join a random group it is pretty much all bets are off. I have had some minor success with the group finder getting quests done on new leveling characters but it is by no means perfect. Guild assists are much more efficient but not always an option when you don't play at peak times.

I know people think this is something Zos should address but in a way they have even if you don't like it. Almost all if not all dungeons now pull you to the bosses so that you don't miss out on dungeon completion bonus credit.

This wasn't always the case so instead of putting additional blocks in to force groups to wait for everyone, they did infact make it easier for speed runners not to make people miss out on the last boss loot and random dungeon completion.

frogthroat

Barovia87 wrote: »

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation in a video game. Speed-running at a dead run is not. People trying to read their quests isn't your major time loss factor in a PuG - it's the fact that you're choosing to run 20 PuGs in a day. That's on you. That's a long-winded and tiresome false equivalency, @frogthroat . But continue pretending they're the same thing, I guess.

That is a baseline expectation if and only if there is only one correct way to play the game. But this is an MMO. You are not the only player.

Also, only the first couple of paragraphs are strictly relevant. The rest was explaining I do something in the middle, fast but consider other - up to a point. And a personal anecdote about a particularly bad experience that is the other side of the coin of this debate.

Both sides have their arguments, and there are tools to customise your experience to your liking.

But a random dungeon with random people is not that place. If you expect that a random group lets you take all the time you need, you're going to have a bad time. Likewise, if you expect to speedrun 20 RNDs in a row with randoms, you're going to have a bad time.

Best, I find, is to accept that a random run is random.

Dragonnord

Barovia87 wrote: »

People having the time to read/listen to the quests they're on is a baseline expectation...

Their expectation is completely out of reality. That's why they don't get what they expect.

If they expect that a player that already did Direfrost Keep 600 times will wait for someone to quest/roleplay in the dungeon, their expectations are out-of-this-world wrong.

Also, there is no sign in the dungeon entrance that forces players or tells players how the dungeon has to be run.

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.

Want to roleplay and quest? Go with players that want to roleplay and quest. Don't go with players that don't want to roleplay and quest.
 

SilverBride

I don't know how it is on other platforms, but I've had very good results on PCNA by announcing that I am doing the quest at the start of the run. I can't remember more than a couple of times that the group didn't slow down enough for me to complete the objectives, and I always complete them as quick as I can so I don't hold up everyone else.

But the bottom line, as many have stated, is if we join a pug we get what we get. If we want a specific type of run we need to form a group with friends, or guildies, or other like minded players.

Thysbe

Dragonnord wrote: »

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.
 

But thats exactly what you speed runners do - forcing your way of playing on others.

Dragonnord

Thysbe wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.
 

But thats exactly what you speed runners do - forcing your way of playing on others.

Really? Don't you see things go both ways? Then questers and role players are forcing speed runners to go slow.

And don't tell me: "But they should go slow". No, they should go how they want.
 

Thysbe

Dragonnord wrote: »

And don't tell me: "But they should go slow". No, they should go how they want.
 

Nah - no point of preaching about common decency on deaf ears. Kickvote or leave if vote is not accepted. If I want a skillpoint any minute further invested in that dungeon is a pure waste of my time.

tsaescishoeshiner

They're not intentionally breaking your quest, they're just not interested in helping. That's a big difference, but it's still annoying.

Newer dungeon quests haven't had such specific requirements that are easy to miss, and auto-update based on dungeon progress (from what I've noticed). It would be nice if it were further added to older dungeons.

El_Borracho

Group finder is not made for:

Quests
Reading every lorebook
Side bosses
DLC Hard Modes
Trial Hard Modes
Prog runs

Sorry, but that's the truth. While you could find some groups that would let you do these things, nobody should expect group finder to help you do these things. Its not rude, or mean, or intentional, or game breaking, or whatever. Group finder is a tool to get random people together to hopefully complete a dungeon or trial. It is not a guarantee that either will be accomplished.

frogthroat

El_Borracho wrote: »

Group finder is not made for:

That's odd. I can define the purpose of the run in pretty detailed way. I can even choose "Story" as the playstyle.



edit: I do understand this is not a guarantee all who join follow the purpose in the description. But then we go by likelihoods. You are more likely to find other players whose goals align with yours this way, and then the odd one out is easily kicked if needed.

ESO_player123

frogthroat wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Group finder is not made for:

That's odd. I can define the purpose of the run in pretty detailed way. I can even choose "Story" as the playstyle.

I think the poster meant Random Group Finder (the one used for daily XP), not the one you screenshotted.

frogthroat

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I think the poster meant Random Group Finder (the one used for daily XP), not the one you screenshotted.

That would actually make more sense. Maybe he mixed up the two.

And in such case, I completely agree with him. Dungeon finder is definitely not for all that he listed. Even random veteran dungeon is not suitable for HM. It can happen, but you can't expect that.

said no one ever

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know how it is on other platforms, but I've had very good results on PCNA by announcing that I am doing the quest at the start of the run. I can't remember more than a couple of times that the group didn't slow down enough for me to complete the objectives, and I always complete them as quick as I can so I don't hold up everyone else.

But the bottom line, as many have stated, is if we join a pug we get what we get. If we want a specific type of run we need to form a group with friends, or guildies, or other like minded players.

Yah it's true enough. If you say i have quest please lets do all the bosses, ie rat whisperer inclusive, people generally take a minute to burn iit down. Tempest island is it's own reality though i guess.

DeadlySerious

Selenes web and Vollenfell are another examples of the dungeons that the dungeon quest can not be completed if the group runs ahead and kills the first mob and keeps speed running. The NPC you need to talk to in order to start the quest is not available if the first mob is killed before the quest can be picked up.

As others have pointed out, they just need to make the quests and each quest node auto complete if people run ahead before we can complete the necessitated NPC conversation.

ESO_player123

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Selenes web and Vollenfell are another examples of the dungeons that the dungeon quest can not be completed if the group runs ahead and kills the first mob and keeps speed running. The NPC you need to talk to in order to start the quest is not available if the first mob is killed before the quest can be picked up.

As others have pointed out, they just need to make the quests and each quest node auto complete if people run ahead before we can complete the necessitated NPC conversation.

The current workaround for the dungeons where you cannot grab the quest because someone pulled the first trash pack already is to port to the dungeon solo, grab the quest, and then go with the group. Not ideal, but works like a charm.

CalamityCat

Thysbe wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Really? Don't you see things go both ways? Then questers and role players are forcing speed runners to go slow.

And don't tell me: "But they should go slow". No, they should go how they want.
 

How exactly are you being forced to go slower by other players? The fastest member of a group will pull the other three regardless of what speed they're going. Whoever gets to the boss first will set the speed.

The only thing a group can do with a speed runner is vote kick. I've rarely seen that, mostly others get fed up and quit the group.

I think the real question here is why do speed runners keep trying to do fast runs with random groups, when they can form groups or join guilds to do exactly this?

Dragonnord

CalamityCat wrote: »

How exactly are you being forced to go slower by other players? The fastest member of a group will pull the other three regardless of what speed they're going. Whoever gets to the boss first will set the speed.

Replace "forcing" with "demanding". Who are questers and role players to demand, and get angry, and post all type of threads in these forums, if speed runners want to speed run dungeons?

CalamityCat wrote: »

I think the real question here is why do speed runners keep trying to do fast runs with random groups, when they can form groups or join guilds to do exactly this?

Same goes the other way, why do questers and role players keep trying to quest and role play with random groups, when they can form groups or join guilds to do exactly this?
 

DenverRalphy

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

They're not intentionally breaking your quest, they're just not interested in helping. That's a big difference, but it's still annoying.

<snip>

If they're aware someone needs to complete the quest, then it becomes intentional.

CalamityCat

Dragonnord wrote: »

Replace "forcing" with "demanding". Who are questers and role players to demand, and get angry, and post all type of threads in these forums, if speed runners want to speed run dungeons?

Having a different opinion is normal and acceptable to me, I don't see the problem there. Players are allowed to be frustrated if someone disrupts their attempt at completing a quest. Just as some can get upset that a player is slower than they are. But neither side is "right" or better than the other.

A random group of players creates a situation where you really need to co-operate and accept that others might not be like you are. I go with the majority and help whoever asks if they're polite. Some runs are slower, some are fast and super efficient.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Same goes the other way, why do questers and role players keep trying to quest and role play with random groups, when they can form groups or join guilds to do exactly this?
 

If it's okay for you to be speed running with randoms, it's equally acceptable for others to do quests with randoms. Quests are an integral part of dungeons and character training, so why shouldn't those players join random groups to do that? Newer players don't always have guilds and friends. Even when they do, no one playstyle has the monopoly on random groups

Amottica

Munkfist wrote: »

The simplest solution is finding like-minded people, either via zone or guild. Most people using the dungeon finder are going for a daily random normal for the experience alone.

While some groups will wait for quests, some don't even see the chat until the final "tyfg".

It's unfortunately one of the consequences to PuG.

Pretty much this. As I have said before, when asking for a random group of people to do a dungeon with one will get a random group of people with different interests. That includes people who are speed running through the dungeonto get their random or an undaunted pledge.

As @Munkfist suggested, the best approach is to form the group with a specific goal in mind. Guild members are the best group to ask as they tend to be more understanding. Regardless of where one is asking they do have to be clear about their goals and expectations.

@Nestor is also correct that pug behavior and that there is not much Zenimax can do that they have not already (gave us the mens to form and even help find people that meet what we want).

SaffronCitrusflower

Dragonnord wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.
 

But thats exactly what you speed runners do - forcing your way of playing on others.

Really? Don't you see things go both ways? Then questers and role players are forcing speed runners to go slow.

And don't tell me: "But they should go slow". No, they should go how they want.
 

When a low level toon respectfully requests they have the dungeon quest and to hold up so they can pick it up and do the necessary npc dialogue along the way, what's your problem with that exactly?

SwimsWithMemes

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Play as you want, don't force, demand nor tell others how they have to play their games.
 

But thats exactly what you speed runners do - forcing your way of playing on others.

Really? Don't you see things go both ways? Then questers and role players are forcing speed runners to go slow.

And don't tell me: "But they should go slow". No, they should go how they want.
 

When a low level toon respectfully requests they have the dungeon quest and to hold up so they can pick it up and do the necessary npc dialogue along the way, what's your problem with that exactly?

I think it's more than the speedy players may not be interested in reading the chat, or made read it long after they've actually blitzed through the first set of mobs. Some may not care, but some may just never notice.

Dragonnord

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

When a low level toon respectfully requests they have the dungeon quest and to hold up so they can pick it up and do the necessary npc dialogue along the way, what's your problem with that exactly?

First, who said I'm a speed runner? I just like things fair.

What about "I did the dungeon 900 times and don't want to be here not even 1 extra minute than needed".

What's so difficult to understand? Why people keep pushing, forcing and demanding others to do what they (questers) want?

Why do anyone have to provide a reason? Speed runners just DO NOT WANT. Period.

No one has to give a reason and no one has the right to demand anything.

Questers don't have friends? Come on! It takes one minute to join a guild. In fact you can join 5 guilds in a few minutes.

Or, you can just create a customized group in the group tool to quest in the dungeon. Simple. Instead of telling other players (speed runners in this case) what they have to do.

Dragonnord

Also, some quests take a looooooooooooooooooooooot of time, since listening to or reading the dialogues take time.

You can ask the NPC a lot of questions, and each of those questions take to NPC answers that continue with more lines of dialogue and more answers, and more questions for you to ask that take to more dialogue and more answers from the NPC.

Then you can talk to the NPC several times during the dungeon. Then, after killing a boss, NPC usually stops to talk to you again, and you again can ask them several questions that take to extra dialogue with extra answers, and again options for extra questions. Then on another boss the NPC stops again, and so on.

Then at the end, NPC stops again with several questions for you to ask again, with extra conversation and extra answers, and of course more extra questions for you to ask, all that before players can complete the quest.

Also, sometimes you just don't talkt to one NPC, but the main NPC and also other NPCs that are there and you can talk to them too.

So talking to quest NPCs and extra NPCs inside dungeons, hearing, reading and asking them stuff, can take a loooooooooooooooot of time.

No one has the right to force or demand anyone to be 15, 20 or more minutes inside a dungeon if they don't want.
 

M0ntie

This one would be easy for ZoS to fix. Just make the door out of the area not open until the beach was cleared. Also make the NPC spawn happen much faster.

C_Inside

What I really want to know is why do questers/casual players even care about the quests in these group dungeons? They're all the same. You talk to a generic NPC that has problem that can ONLY be fixed by killing the last boss. There is no deviation from this format. You can't betray the quest giver and side with the boss. You don't get different outcomes based on what prior zone stories you've done. You can't be evil and kill everyone. You can't use diplomacy and just talk your way out of combat. The only option you have is kill all the enemies/bosses. Every single dungeon is like this.

The quests for Lep Seclusa and Exiled Redoubt are exactly the same as the one in FG1. It's just the skin that's different.

So why do you care? You've already done every single dungeon quest as soon as you finish the one for FG1. Just grab the quest, spam through the pointless dialogue, and get the NPC to dispense his skill point at the end.

Thysbe

C_Inside wrote: »

What I really want to know is why do questers/casual players even care about the quests in.

You get a Skillpoint for them - thats the main reason. One of the quickest sources besides public dungeons and overland. Most don´t care about the quest itself.