Should ball groups violate TOS?

Turtle_Bot · March 12

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

News flash for ball group players, PuGs and small scales were doing exactly what is being said here to do, adapting, building and speccing via trial and error with sets such as Azureblight.
And yet what did we see when the PuGs and small scales took this advice and did this? Ball group players, instead of taking their own advice, went and made multiple threads to manipulate ZOS into completely deleting Azureblight from PvP. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And ball group players wonder why they currently have such a bad reputation among the general player base.

It is important to remember that loud people making threads on forums about whatever issue never represents the entire playerbase. I play in ballgroups and thought the Azureblight nerf was a mistake as it removed valid counterplay from the game. This change is likely one of the reasons that we are seeing so many threads about ballgroups as of late.

There are ways to address the dominance of 12-man ballgroups without hurting the viability of organized group play, but saying that people violate TOS for using the tools given to them by the game is not one of them.

I agree that Ball Groups don't violate ToS, I just find the hypocrisy of many (not all) of the comments that defend ball groups (especially current ball groups) talking about learn to play, or skill issue, or get good, etc etc, very tedious, especially when those same commenters are always the first to call for something they don't like to be removed from the game.

WaywardArgonian · March 12

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

That's kind of the point of ballgroup though. You play as a unit and discard any selfishness for the betterment of the team. Each ballgroup player is weaker when they're alone because of it, but as a unit, we're formidable. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is just a different style of play. We shouldn't be forced to play someone else's way just to suit their needs and desires.

You know, almost like it is a team game...

I did not say there was anything wrong with group play; I challenged your claim that HoT stacking is not the main source of ballgroup survivability when it clearly is.

CrazyKitty · March 12

I can totally relate to the OP's point, although not entirely. Ball groups are not, according to the letter of the law, exploiting.

But, ZOS has neglected balance and performance issues in Cyrodiil for so long that ZOS has created a situation where coordinated groups can stack so many heals and shields that they are indestructible, just as though they were exploiting. It's hard to look at a group of 12 players having 12 instances of vigor, 12 instances of radiating regen and 12 instances of two different shields on all 12 group members as anything other than exploiting at this point.

To date, even though this issue has been discussed ad infinitum for more than several years on this forum, ZOS has yet to comment on the problem. So it's not exploiting in a ToS violating way, but it absolutely is exploiting a broken system that ZOS refuses to fix/balance. They haven't even admitted their neglect let alone the impacts on Cyrodiil their neglect has had on performance and the joy sucking ball groups exploiting the system ZOS allows to exist.

There is no debating that reducing shield and heal stacking to only one instance of each HoT and shield per player at any given time would greatly reduce server load and improve performance. So why hasn't ZOS even tried a fix that is so obvious and begged for over years?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

WaywardArgonian · March 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I agree that Ball Groups don't violate ToS, I just find the hypocrisy of many (not all) of the comments that defend ball groups (especially current ball groups) talking about learn to play, or skill issue, or get good, etc etc, very tedious, especially when those same commenters are always the first to call for something they don't like to be removed from the game.

It is the issue of online discourse in general where each opinion tends toward the extreme. A lot of threads discussing ballgroups or specific sets that may counter them are posted when someone's already committed to a certain emotion (this thread being a great example), so the reaction is often going to be as emotional. "We violate TOS? Well why don't you learn how to play!"

I just thought it was worth pointing out that I do know a lot of players active in ballgroups and other forms of organized PVP who recognize that 12-man compositions are too dominant/easy to play, and who are actively trying to come up with ways to balance this without completely removing the rewards for skilled and organized play.

Joy_Division · March 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

News flash for ball group players, PuGs and small scales were doing exactly what is being said here to do, adapting, building and speccing via trial and error with sets such as Azureblight.
And yet what did we see when the PuGs and small scales took this advice and did this? Ball group players, instead of taking their own advice, went and made multiple threads to manipulate ZOS into completely deleting Azureblight from PvP. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And ball group players wonder why they currently have such a bad reputation among the general player base.

It is important to remember that loud people making threads on forums about whatever issue never represents the entire playerbase. I play in ballgroups and thought the Azureblight nerf was a mistake as it removed valid counterplay from the game. This change is likely one of the reasons that we are seeing so many threads about ballgroups as of late.

There are ways to address the dominance of 12-man ballgroups without hurting the viability of organized group play, but saying that people violate TOS for using the tools given to them by the game is not one of them.

I agree that Ball Groups don't violate ToS, I just find the hypocrisy of many (not all) of the comments that defend ball groups (especially current ball groups) talking about learn to play, or skill issue, or get good, etc etc, very tedious, especially when those same commenters are always the first to call for something they don't like to be removed from the game.

Yes, but the hypocrisy runs both ways.

So as a ball group player, it is asked that they intentionally use bad sets, bad skills, not coordinate, withdrawal from every uneven fight, never provoke fights because if they do they are a cancer, skilless hacks, miserable people, cheaters, exploiters, who personally ruin PvP for everyone else. The amount of hate collectively and casually thrown at them is incredible. We won;t even talk about the whispers they get every night. That is abusive.

Soloers, small scalers, and PUGs do not subject themselves to these sorts of conditions and laugh when they provoke fights and delete casuals or outnumbered players. There is this double standard where they are allowed to exploit ZOS's terrible mechanics and try their best to kill ball group players (or anyone else), but if ball group players do they same thing, it's "Shame!" That is the underlying implication of these threads that complain about ball groups.

I do agree that ball group players are often tendentious in trying to defend how they play, and I call them out on it to such an extent that these ball group players sometimes just assume I don't run in an organized group (when in fact I have since 2014). Quite frankly, they probably would be better off just keeping silent rather than try to defend Rush of Agony or claim that heal stacking isn't a big deal. These are absolutely terrible mechanics.

But if them saying "git gud" isn't a very helpful answer, neither is the implied counter of "intentionally play bad" or you're "griefing."

***

This whole debate is frustrating because it is obvious to all of us there are measures ZOS could easily do to try and restore some of the balance that has swung way to far in favor of organized groups. Yet they have not for years. As I have run in organized groups since 2014, I would argue that what can we can do with 12 is more than what we could do with 24 back in say 2016. Easily. The amount of collective power, defense, health, shielding, healing, mobility, etc., is so broken, it makes the game genuinely unfun to play. This is true down to the individual level, so it's crazy what 12 solid organized players can do in coms with group buffing sets that did not exist back in 2016.

It is inconceivable to me that the devs would just allow a set like Rush of Agony that violates its own core mechanics to exist for years and years, being blissfully ignorant that this set is now the core "tactic" of every single organized group. Or that people on this forum would post screenshots of players literally with a dozen HoTs on them and be totally cool with that. Years and years. So after all this time, we're finally going to get this "Vengeance" campaign to test? Instead of developing an entirely new untested campaign that doesn't even follow ESO's established rules, how about at least trying to make the current game appealing as it once was?

Turtle_Bot · March 13

Joy_Division wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

News flash for ball group players, PuGs and small scales were doing exactly what is being said here to do, adapting, building and speccing via trial and error with sets such as Azureblight.
And yet what did we see when the PuGs and small scales took this advice and did this? Ball group players, instead of taking their own advice, went and made multiple threads to manipulate ZOS into completely deleting Azureblight from PvP. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And ball group players wonder why they currently have such a bad reputation among the general player base.

It is important to remember that loud people making threads on forums about whatever issue never represents the entire playerbase. I play in ballgroups and thought the Azureblight nerf was a mistake as it removed valid counterplay from the game. This change is likely one of the reasons that we are seeing so many threads about ballgroups as of late.

There are ways to address the dominance of 12-man ballgroups without hurting the viability of organized group play, but saying that people violate TOS for using the tools given to them by the game is not one of them.

I agree that Ball Groups don't violate ToS, I just find the hypocrisy of many (not all) of the comments that defend ball groups (especially current ball groups) talking about learn to play, or skill issue, or get good, etc etc, very tedious, especially when those same commenters are always the first to call for something they don't like to be removed from the game.

Yes, but the hypocrisy runs both ways.

So as a ball group player, it is asked that they intentionally use bad sets, bad skills, not coordinate, withdrawal from every uneven fight, never provoke fights because if they do they are a cancer, skilless hacks, miserable people, cheaters, exploiters, who personally ruin PvP for everyone else. The amount of hate collectively and casually thrown at them is incredible. We won;t even talk about the whispers they get every night. That is abusive.

Soloers, small scalers, and PUGs do not subject themselves to these sorts of conditions and laugh when they provoke fights and delete casuals or outnumbered players. There is this double standard where they are allowed to exploit ZOS's terrible mechanics and try their best to kill ball group players (or anyone else), but if ball group players do they same thing, it's "Shame!" That is the underlying implication of these threads that complain about ball groups.

I do agree that ball group players are often tendentious in trying to defend how they play, and I call them out on it to such an extent that these ball group players sometimes just assume I don't run in an organized group (when in fact I have since 2014). Quite frankly, they probably would be better off just keeping silent rather than try to defend Rush of Agony or claim that heal stacking isn't a big deal. These are absolutely terrible mechanics.

But if them saying "git gud" isn't a very helpful answer, neither is the implied counter of "intentionally play bad" or you're "griefing."

***

This whole debate is frustrating because it is obvious to all of us there are measures ZOS could easily do to try and restore some of the balance that has swung way to far in favor of organized groups. Yet they have not for years. As I have run in organized groups since 2014, I would argue that what can we can do with 12 is more than what we could do with 24 back in say 2016. Easily. The amount of collective power, defense, health, shielding, healing, mobility, etc., is so broken, it makes the game genuinely unfun to play. This is true down to the individual level, so it's crazy what 12 solid organized players can do in coms with group buffing sets that did not exist back in 2016.

It is inconceivable to me that the devs would just allow a set like Rush of Agony that violates its own core mechanics to exist for years and years, being blissfully ignorant that this set is now the core "tactic" of every single organized group. Or that people on this forum would post screenshots of players literally with a dozen HoTs on them and be totally cool with that. Years and years. So after all this time, we're finally going to get this "Vengeance" campaign to test? Instead of developing an entirely new untested campaign that doesn't even follow ESO's established rules, how about at least trying to make the current game appealing as it once was?

It's not about ball groups must "intentionally play bad or you're griefing", at least for my comment/perspective.

My point is more about the whole attitude by an increasing number of ball group players/commenters of: "We know we are abusing mechanics/sets that ZOS refuses to fix/address and are all but killing the game but we don't care, and everyone else can just go eat dirt." that was on full display in the comment I was originally replying to.

Yes, it is up to ZOS to address these imbalances in such a way that would bring things back to a more appropriate level (see first ~4 years or so of ESO), while not completely deleting the playstyle, and to do so expediently, but it would also help a lot if the ones commenting (either side) would not constantly gaslight and derail the conversation, especially whenever actually constructive ideas are put forward.

Once again, my comment was not aimed at you, Joy, or Wayward, as I have read your posts on this thread (and other threads) and for the most part agree with what you 2 are saying and find your comments helpful/constructive. It was simply pointing out the hypocritical attitude of the original commenter I replied to, and the similar commenters that have popped up over the past year or so with increasing frequency.

Aliniel · March 13

Recently, I reported 3 players for being AFK in BGs and evading the automatic kick mechanism. One of those players I met in another BG right after the first. So, I reported him again.

Few days later, ZOS came back to me saying this doesn't violate ToS nor CoC. People intentionally and with full awareness being AFK, refusing to play, just walking around, and dying on purpose, not casting any spells... does not violate ToS/CoC.

Honestly, based on my experience with ZOS support, banning ball groups is a lost cause.

Rittings · March 13

Ball groups are PVP Parasites. And I don't say that flipantly to flame or insult - but they act the same way as a parasite would. They've attached themselves to Cyrodiil, and usually a specific location within it, and then they feed off the flaws and mechanics of the environment.

One thing I've learned in this game, is that if people can find a way to get a big advantage, they'll take it - no matter the cost of fun.

MaleAmazon · March 13

Stacking medium armor on characters violates TOS as well! Damn those players killing me with their maxed out weapon damage! IMO people should be forced to diversify armor pieces, also one should have to be dyed black and one needs to be of Akaviri design.

On a more serious note...

I wish they would enforce TOS, but for other stuff. IMO PvP and team environments should have something of a policed code of conduct in online games, same as in non-e-sports, also known as 'sports'. Teabagging should be a bannable offense (yes, seriously), and stuff like harassing people in chat obviously. Deliberately repeatedly targeting questers PvP zones, probably. Sometimes things are just hard to prove though, and I have seen way more toxic environments.

Other than that, ESO just has a design that fundamentally caters to ball groups and to some extent toxic behaviour. It just does. Whenever you have buffs that work in an area, skills that synergize etc, that´s just how it works. When you put in rewards and solo quests in a PvP area, things happen.

I mean, ball groups = "IRL armies", you know. Might as well say it violates the laws of war to support tanks with infantry.

BXR_Lonestar · March 13

crappyjazz1964 wrote: »

People complained in another thread that people were playing at night while they were sleeping and that wasn't fair. You can't take this stuff seriously.

This is actually somewhat legitimate though when you break it down. The crux of the complaint is that Cyrodil is a PVP activity, and people who come in late at night when nobody is playing are not really engaging in PVP because it is rare that they encounter any other players or any significant resistance. So they're doing what amounts to a PVE activity. And because they are largely unchallenged, they earn huge points for their alliance such that the winner of the campaign is not necessarily the alliance that was best at PVP as much as it is based on who has the most people on at all times of the day/night.

It's kind of ridiculous that the "winner" of a 30 day campaign is not the alliance that performed the best in terms of the primary activity (PVP), but who simply has more players to play at odd hours when other players aren't active.

Arrow312 · March 13

Balls win days nightcappers win campaign. I remember a time on X EU where we had a non EU group which played during our night time and PvDoor everything when they left the morning "shift" holded the keeps while all others allis was gated. This switched until primetime but just for a few hours.

Remeber it is just a game go into cyro and have fun no matter if you play solo, as zerg, as BG.

BXR_Lonestar · March 13

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

That's kind of the point of ballgroup though. You play as a unit and discard any selfishness for the betterment of the team. Each ballgroup player is weaker when they're alone because of it, but as a unit, we're formidable. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is just a different style of play. We shouldn't be forced to play someone else's way just to suit their needs and desires.

You know, almost like it is a team game...

I did not say there was anything wrong with group play; I challenged your claim that HoT stacking is not the main source of ballgroup survivability when it clearly is.

Its really not though. It is a useful tool, but it is not "THE MAIN" source of survivability. At the mesh point, all those HOT stacks don't do squat in the face of getting ulti-dumped. That is where the healers are really doing their work and earning their roster spot. The HOT stacks are handy for when we're absorbing potshots while maneuvering, and that is pretty much it. It allows us to focus less on burst healing while moving so we can focus on maneuvering, finding a pull, evading someone elses pull, etc.. HOT stacks will easily be overwhelmed by seige damage and burst damage from well timed combos if that is all we were relying on, and as a healer I can tell you that HOTS represent a relatively small amount of heals that I'm throwing out there.

If anything, the main reason why ballgroups have such good survivability is the fact that most ball groups run, at minimum, 3 healers (some run as many as 6), and we're fighting in formation, which makes it really easy to throw out a bunch of strong burst heals at critical points in the fight to completely negate any incoming damage that you can dump on us. Basically, we're survivable because healers are doing their job. If this is an issue, then I think there is a philosophical question to be posed, namely "Do you believe healers have a role in PVP?"

And I will also reiterate once again that literally EVERYONE can enjoy the benefits of HOT stacking so long as you use the group versions of skills (Radiating regen and echoing vigor mainly, but there are other skills that work as well and scribed skills). You are just not getting benefits from being in a group and having coordinated buffs/sets. And I could even be lying there, because I'm pretty sure buffs from SPC effect everyone healed, not just those in group.

Arrow312 · March 13

"And I will also reiterate once again that literally EVERYONE can enjoy the benefits of HOT stacking so long as you use the group versions of skills (Radiating regen and echoing vigor mainly, but there are other skills that work as well and scribed skills). You are just not getting benefits from being in a group and having coordinated buffs/sets. And I could even be lying there, because I'm pretty sure buffs from SPC effect everyone healed, not just those in group. "

We had the same discussion in german forum and showed the same point. Ppl dont want it and want to play selfish on the other hand they complain about ppl who do so.

For me a BG is the same like a HM trial team.

Some sets and skills may broken like RoA or scribing shield but even when you remove it from PvP BG will always be better then a bunch of randoms wihtout healing and coordinated damage.

WaywardArgonian · March 13

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its really not though. It is a useful tool, but it is not "THE MAIN" source of survivability. At the mesh point, all those HOT stacks don't do squat in the face of getting ulti-dumped. That is where the healers are really doing their work and earning their roster spot. The HOT stacks are handy for when we're absorbing potshots while maneuvering, and that is pretty much it. It allows us to focus less on burst healing while moving so we can focus on maneuvering, finding a pull, evading someone elses pull, etc.. HOT stacks will easily be overwhelmed by seige damage and burst damage from well timed combos if that is all we were relying on, and as a healer I can tell you that HOTS represent a relatively small amount of heals that I'm throwing out there.

If anything, the main reason why ballgroups have such good survivability is the fact that most ball groups run, at minimum, 3 healers (some run as many as 6), and we're fighting in formation, which makes it really easy to throw out a bunch of strong burst heals at critical points in the fight to completely negate any incoming damage that you can dump on us. Basically, we're survivable because healers are doing their job. If this is an issue, then I think there is a philosophical question to be posed, namely "Do you believe healers have a role in PVP?"

And I will also reiterate once again that literally EVERYONE can enjoy the benefits of HOT stacking so long as you use the group versions of skills (Radiating regen and echoing vigor mainly, but there are other skills that work as well and scribed skills). You are just not getting benefits from being in a group and having coordinated buffs/sets. And I could even be lying there, because I'm pretty sure buffs from SPC effect everyone healed, not just those in group.

Have you ever had access to logs? Because I am also a healer who has played in every group composition imaginable, including ballgroups. And if I log my group's performance and look into the data, Echoing Vigor is nearly always the number 1 source for healing done by a considerable margin, often followed by Radiating Regeneration. This applies not just to me, but to every player in the group.

To say HoTs represent a relatively small amount of the heals that a healer throws out is just outright and demonstrably false. There are some exceptions to the rule of Vigor being the top healing source: Nightblades who run Soul Siphon and Templars who run Ritual of Rebirth can often get a lot of HPS out of those skills, but in general, if the majority of your healing done comes from burst heals, this is an indication that HoT uptimes across the board are not good.

It is of course necessary for healers to burst through damage spikes, but even in these situations you cannot underestimate the buffer that stacked Vigors and Regens give you, significantly raising the ceiling on the amount of burst damage your group can tank through. Even in GvG fights, where all you do is heal through damage spikes with no sieges or random potshots in sight, Echoing Vigor tends to do the biggest amount of actual healing (so no overheals) of any skill percentage-wise.

LPapirius · March 13

"This whole debate is frustrating because it is obvious to all of us there are measures ZOS could easily do to try and restore some of the balance that has swung way to far in favor of organized groups. Yet they have not for years. As I have run in organized groups since 2014, I would argue that what can we can do with 12 is more than what we could do with 24 back in say 2016. Easily. The amount of collective power, defense, health, shielding, healing, mobility, etc., is so broken, it makes the game genuinely unfun to play. This is true down to the individual level, so it's crazy what 12 solid organized players can do in coms with group buffing sets that did not exist back in 2016.

It is inconceivable to me that the devs would just allow a set like Rush of Agony that violates its own core mechanics to exist for years and years, being blissfully ignorant that this set is now the core "tactic" of every single organized group. Or that people on this forum would post screenshots of players literally with a dozen HoTs on them and be totally cool with that. Years and years. So after all this time, we're finally going to get this "Vengeance" campaign to test? Instead of developing an entirely new untested campaign that doesn't even follow ESO's established rules, how about at least trying to make the current game appealing as it once was?["

As usual Joy_Division's commentary is spot on.

To me "vengeance" campaign feels more like taking out ZOS' failure to fix performance issues out on the PvP community rather than actually trying to fix the performance issues ZOS created and implemented in the first place. It's punishing the PvP players instead of fixing self created problems.

Diundriel · March 13

it is a mmo and ofc team play is allowed they even want you to coordinate otherwise you wouldnt have all these buff sets in the game.

the real issue cyrodil has is the player count besides its often bad performance... if you had lets say 900 players total / 300 or more on each side, you would often and quite fast run in too many players even for most ball groups besides having more action spread out over the map.

BXR_Lonestar · March 14

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its really not though. It is a useful tool, but it is not "THE MAIN" source of survivability. At the mesh point, all those HOT stacks don't do squat in the face of getting ulti-dumped. That is where the healers are really doing their work and earning their roster spot. The HOT stacks are handy for when we're absorbing potshots while maneuvering, and that is pretty much it. It allows us to focus less on burst healing while moving so we can focus on maneuvering, finding a pull, evading someone elses pull, etc.. HOT stacks will easily be overwhelmed by seige damage and burst damage from well timed combos if that is all we were relying on, and as a healer I can tell you that HOTS represent a relatively small amount of heals that I'm throwing out there.

If anything, the main reason why ballgroups have such good survivability is the fact that most ball groups run, at minimum, 3 healers (some run as many as 6), and we're fighting in formation, which makes it really easy to throw out a bunch of strong burst heals at critical points in the fight to completely negate any incoming damage that you can dump on us. Basically, we're survivable because healers are doing their job. If this is an issue, then I think there is a philosophical question to be posed, namely "Do you believe healers have a role in PVP?"

And I will also reiterate once again that literally EVERYONE can enjoy the benefits of HOT stacking so long as you use the group versions of skills (Radiating regen and echoing vigor mainly, but there are other skills that work as well and scribed skills). You are just not getting benefits from being in a group and having coordinated buffs/sets. And I could even be lying there, because I'm pretty sure buffs from SPC effect everyone healed, not just those in group.

Have you ever had access to logs? Because I am also a healer who has played in every group composition imaginable, including ballgroups. And if I log my group's performance and look into the data, Echoing Vigor is nearly always the number 1 source for healing done by a considerable margin, often followed by Radiating Regeneration. This applies not just to me, but to every player in the group.

To say HoTs represent a relatively small amount of the heals that a healer throws out is just outright and demonstrably false. There are some exceptions to the rule of Vigor being the top healing source: Nightblades who run Soul Siphon and Templars who run Ritual of Rebirth can often get a lot of HPS out of those skills, but in general, if the majority of your healing done comes from burst heals, this is an indication that HoT uptimes across the board are not good.

It is of course necessary for healers to burst through damage spikes, but even in these situations you cannot underestimate the buffer that stacked Vigors and Regens give you, significantly raising the ceiling on the amount of burst damage your group can tank through. Even in GvG fights, where all you do is heal through damage spikes with no sieges or random potshots in sight, Echoing Vigor tends to do the biggest amount of actual healing (so no overheals) of any skill percentage-wise.

I don't have access to logs because I play on console, so I have to play by feel. Nonetheless, I don't think that devalue's my opinion any.

Our uptime on HOTS is actually very good, but we've dropped resto backbar in favor of an ice staff or s/b, so people are either running just echoing vigor or echoing vigor + scribed heal. But even if all of what you say is true I can tell you that there is a very good reason for those heals adding up to being the most dominant source of healing - and why that could still be of minimal impact. When the ballgroup is moving around and mobile, we absorb a LOT of potshots - people trying to build ulti on us, people trying to draw us into an engagement, people trying to hit us with seige, etc. These are not even encounters where we're fighting, we're just on the very edge of the battle and we're maneuvering to try to get people grouped up for a hit. Yes, we're taking damage, but most of the time it is not burst damage significant enough to warrant breaking sprint to hit the group with a burst heal - in which case, your HOT stacks are just serving the function of keeping your health up so you don't have to suddenly stop and burst heal before engaging with someone. Much of this damage isn't even going to be a serious threat to you or your teammates.

That doesn't mean that these heals actually make that big of a difference when you reach the meshpoint, which is where you are going to live or die as a ballgroup (so long as we stay mobile and out of reach of other ballgroups doing burst damage, we're not going to die). The HOT stacks allow you to shrug off damage while we're maneuvering, but if we do a pull and ONLY rely on our HOTS, we're going to die on the vast majority of our pulls. What allows us to survive is the directed burst heals. I know this for a fact because I literally stand there right outside of the negate zone, and in spite of the HOT stacking, I watch my teammates health rise and fall with my spamming of my burst heals, and if it drops too quickly, with my heal ultimate. That would only be the case if the HOT stacking was overwhelmed with burst damage such that massive amounts of burst heal is necessary to keep people upright.

Your damage window at the mesh point is only a few seconds, so you really only spend a small window hitting your burst heals. Much of your time in in a ballgroup is spent maneuvering looking for that next hit. So yes, I can see how HOT stacking would still add up to be the dominant heal still, while also being a smaller contributor to survivability at the meshpoint. BOTH points can actually be true.

And as I pointed out again: random pugs can also enjoy the benefits of heal stacking if they so choose. They just aren't going to get the benefits of synergy sets, most of which require you to be grouped. Most of them don't know what they're doing though. Most aren't playing in an organized groups. And then they get killed by players who do know what they are doing. That's pretty much how it happens in nearly every PVP game out there. And I really don't see a problem with it. There was a time that I was on the other end of things too. Hell, there are times i am STILL on the other end of things. Its just part of the learning curve and part of the nature of PVP.

WaywardArgonian · March 15

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I don't have access to logs because I play on console, so I have to play by feel. Nonetheless, I don't think that devalue's my opinion any.

Our uptime on HOTS is actually very good, but we've dropped resto backbar in favor of an ice staff or s/b, so people are either running just echoing vigor or echoing vigor + scribed heal. But even if all of what you say is true I can tell you that there is a very good reason for those heals adding up to being the most dominant source of healing - and why that could still be of minimal impact. When the ballgroup is moving around and mobile, we absorb a LOT of potshots - people trying to build ulti on us, people trying to draw us into an engagement, people trying to hit us with seige, etc. These are not even encounters where we're fighting, we're just on the very edge of the battle and we're maneuvering to try to get people grouped up for a hit. Yes, we're taking damage, but most of the time it is not burst damage significant enough to warrant breaking sprint to hit the group with a burst heal - in which case, your HOT stacks are just serving the function of keeping your health up so you don't have to suddenly stop and burst heal before engaging with someone. Much of this damage isn't even going to be a serious threat to you or your teammates.

That doesn't mean that these heals actually make that big of a difference when you reach the meshpoint, which is where you are going to live or die as a ballgroup (so long as we stay mobile and out of reach of other ballgroups doing burst damage, we're not going to die). The HOT stacks allow you to shrug off damage while we're maneuvering, but if we do a pull and ONLY rely on our HOTS, we're going to die on the vast majority of our pulls. What allows us to survive is the directed burst heals. I know this for a fact because I literally stand there right outside of the negate zone, and in spite of the HOT stacking, I watch my teammates health rise and fall with my spamming of my burst heals, and if it drops too quickly, with my heal ultimate. That would only be the case if the HOT stacking was overwhelmed with burst damage such that massive amounts of burst heal is necessary to keep people upright.

Your damage window at the mesh point is only a few seconds, so you really only spend a small window hitting your burst heals. Much of your time in in a ballgroup is spent maneuvering looking for that next hit. So yes, I can see how HOT stacking would still add up to be the dominant heal still, while also being a smaller contributor to survivability at the meshpoint. BOTH points can actually be true.

And as I pointed out again: random pugs can also enjoy the benefits of heal stacking if they so choose. They just aren't going to get the benefits of synergy sets, most of which require you to be grouped. Most of them don't know what they're doing though. Most aren't playing in an organized groups. And then they get killed by players who do know what they are doing. That's pretty much how it happens in nearly every PVP game out there. And I really don't see a problem with it. There was a time that I was on the other end of things too. Hell, there are times i am STILL on the other end of things. Its just part of the learning curve and part of the nature of PVP.

Look, I'm not trying to big league you because you play on console and have no access to PC-only tools through no fault of your own, but from that perspective I just want to tell you that you are severely underestimating the impact that HoTs have on the survivability of any group that runs them. Ballgroups are just the best example of it because players in those groups tend to have much higher uptimes than people playing in pugs, which maximizes the impact that HoT-stacking has.

HoTs do much more than just neutralizing potshots and random siege. Like I said before, the prevalence of Echoing Vigor and, to a lesser extent, Radiating Regen, translates into GvG scenarios. GvGs are all about exchanging burst damage; there is no siege in sight, and there are no random potshots apart from light/heavy attacks for ult gen. Yet in these scenarios too, it is Vigor that does the most healing by a comfortable margin.

What you say is true that, if you ONLY rely on HoTs, you would not survive high damage bursts. But what is also true is that if you only rely on burst heals, you won't make it through many of those same moments either because there is no buffer to cover the intervals in which there are no or fewer burst heals being cast. Such intervals may occur because some healers may be on their other bar reapplying buffs, stunned, or otherwise unable to keep casting infinite burst heals. Even in an ideal scenarios, where your healers are all casting burst heals into the damage point, without HoTs it might be mathematically impossible for them to outheal the incoming damage. HoTs raise that ceiling by a huge amount.

As I said before, the effect of the HoT buffer cannot be underestimated. When you turn on healing numbers so that they are displayed on yourself, focus on the amount of healing you are getting in just a few seconds when you have many Vigors active on you. Vigors can hit for like 2-3k per tick, times 12, well you get the idea. This is also why I brought up uptimes before, because the better a group is at keeping these heals ticking on every team mate, the smaller the amount of burst heal damage you need to get through even the most high-pressure situations. The amount of burst damage a group needs to bring to the table to topple a group covered in HoTs is much, much higher. You can even see this in the field when you have HoTs active, a random ganker tries to pick one of you off, and your healthbar barely moves even with no burst heals in the mix. While the effect is not quite as strong when you factor in a whole group doing damage, the same principle still applies, that you are essentially a damage sponge with so many HoTs on you and will need a smaller amount of burst heals to make it through.

Icy_Waffles · March 15

So wait… you think I should be punished for teaming up with others, coordinating, and working together… in a MMORPG? Yikes.

The_Meathead · March 15

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

So wait… you think I should be punished for teaming up with others, coordinating, and working together… in a MMORPG? Yikes.

Nobody sensible thinks this.

Grouping and especially highly communicative and coordinated grouping should and will always offer massive benefits of timing, targeting, and even synergistic gearing/abilities for those who can make the schedule and effort. Groups will always have the advantage, as they should by nature.

It's the synergistic gearing/abilities part that's out of control and needs to be reined in by ZoS. The absurd strength of stacked HoTs and Shields (especially since Scribing arrived), Rush of Agony, Snow Treaders, and more have elevated a coordinated group of 12 players to something that's far too great.

It's equally absurd to expect players not to do the utmost possible and use these methods let alone report them for doing so(!!), and it's on ZOS to establish more reasonable limitations.

DO SOMETHING, ZOS.

Avran_Sylt · March 15

They're absurdly strong and cancerous to PvP health, but not against terms of service.

IMO, ZoS needs to actually present a set or ability that is actually effective against ball groups, but one that's actually balanced around positioning and not sheer brute-force damage output (which I find incredibly unbalanced).

Maybe a set that increases the range of single-target pull abilities by 30m with a 30s cooldown, a scribing ultimate that lets you mark a location, and the next time you bash an enemy within a time-frame, you're both teleported to that location, etc.

Stuff that lets you pick apart a strong ball, and that a ball can only use to target individuals at a time against weaker balls/zergs.

reazea · March 15

CrazyKitty wrote: »

I can totally relate to the OP's point, although not entirely. Ball groups are not, according to the letter of the law, exploiting.

But, ZOS has neglected balance and performance issues in Cyrodiil for so long that ZOS has created a situation where coordinated groups can stack so many heals and shields that they are indestructible, just as though they were exploiting. It's hard to look at a group of 12 players having 12 instances of vigor, 12 instances of radiating regen and 12 instances of two different shields on all 12 group members as anything other than exploiting at this point.

To date, even though this issue has been discussed ad infinitum for more than several years on this forum, ZOS has yet to comment on the problem. So it's not exploiting in a ToS violating way, but it absolutely is exploiting a broken system that ZOS refuses to fix/balance. They haven't even admitted their neglect let alone the impacts on Cyrodiil their neglect has had on performance and the joy sucking ball groups exploiting the system ZOS allows to exist.

There is no debating that reducing shield and heal stacking to only one instance of each HoT and shield per player at any given time would greatly reduce server load and improve performance. So why hasn't ZOS even tried a fix that is so obvious and begged for over years?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

This is my question as well. Why isn't there any focus on fixing the few sets and issues causing such imbalance in Cyrodiil instead of starting over from scratch with a very dumbed down template version of cyrodiil?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Stridig · March 15

Which sets are the issue? I'm curious to know what people think the problems are.

Joy_Division · March 15

Stridig wrote: »

Which sets are the issue? I'm curious to know what people think the problems are.

It's more a design philosophy from ZOS about making sets that give very powerful effects with little effort (Rallying Cry) or flat out break any previous balancing standard they set (Rush of Agony) and the inconsistency in their application of what gets nerfed and what doesn't (Azureblight).

But beyond that ZOS has totally lost control of the powercreep into PvP when it comes to heals/defense whereby a coordinated group of 12 players can pretty much farm a faction of players on the third floor of a tri-keep.

The problem is that ZOS does not communicate with us on this issue and as apparent from the BG stream they had a few months ago, they devs are unfamiliar with how competitive PvP is played. So their balance patches do not address the core issues of the game.

kargen27 · March 15

Been a few years since I've been in an organized PvP guild but still want to toss out a couple of thoughts. When I was in a PvP guild every member of every group had very specific set-ups and things they were suppose to do. We often had more than one group each with its own goal.
Sometimes a group would go deep into enemy territory or just search out the enemy with the goal of mostly pestering them into a fight. If we could get them at a resource, a wall or bridge that was great but keeps were also good. The point of the group was to survive and keep the enemy occupied chasing us around. If we could while doing that lure them into a choke point and drop a good number of them even better.
While that group was keeping the enemy occupied another group or two would begin flipping the map. The make-up for those groups was much different than the one being a distraction. All were well organized. Everybody knew exactly where they were going to drop siege and healers knew which side of the line they would be healing. People were assigned to front and back flags and others assigned to clear the enemy. We knew who would drop what they were doing and start rezzing if that was needed. If we expected heavy siege and oils inside the doors we all knew which way we would break once inside and where we would gather up for the next phase. It was all really coordinated even between groups using Discord.

So when you see a ball group just running around in a tower or keep not taking the objective that doesn't mean they are not playing the objective of controlling the map. Sometimes they are just having fun and going for kills but sometimes they are there so others can be successful somewhere else on the map. It can get really frustrating a ball group but it gets much better if you refuse to follow them into choke points. That alone makes the fight much better when going against them.

I also ran with a guild that was mostly from Australia. At that time my schedule was such that I was on late at night and they were some of the few around. Sometimes there would be little or no opposition in a campaign when we were on but that didn't mean we were avoiding a fight. There just wasn't people on when we could play. That is going to happen and there isn't much that can be done about it. You can't tell people with different schedules they can't participate or shouldn't take the map. Isn't their fault nor problem that others are not online when they are.

shadyjane62 · March 16

I used to love PVP. Now there are ball groups. End of story.

Icy_Waffles · March 16

The_Meathead wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

So wait… you think I should be punished for teaming up with others, coordinating, and working together… in a MMORPG? Yikes.

Nobody sensible thinks this.

Grouping and especially highly communicative and coordinated grouping should and will always offer massive benefits of timing, targeting, and even synergistic gearing/abilities for those who can make the schedule and effort. Groups will always have the advantage, as they should by nature.

It's the synergistic gearing/abilities part that's out of control and needs to be reined in by ZoS. The absurd strength of stacked HoTs and Shields (especially since Scribing arrived), Rush of Agony, Snow Treaders, and more have elevated a coordinated group of 12 players to something that's far too great.

It's equally absurd to expect players not to do the utmost possible and use these methods let alone report them for doing so(!!), and it's on ZOS to establish more reasonable limitations.

DO SOMETHING, ZOS.

I’m very sensible, I just disagree with you.
Try to get some friends and work together as pvp is designed. You think it’s any different from pve like a coordinated vet trial group?

The_Meathead · March 16

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

So wait… you think I should be punished for teaming up with others, coordinating, and working together… in a MMORPG? Yikes.

Nobody sensible thinks this.

Grouping and especially highly communicative and coordinated grouping should and will always offer massive benefits of timing, targeting, and even synergistic gearing/abilities for those who can make the schedule and effort. Groups will always have the advantage, as they should by nature.

It's the synergistic gearing/abilities part that's out of control and needs to be reined in by ZoS. The absurd strength of stacked HoTs and Shields (especially since Scribing arrived), Rush of Agony, Snow Treaders, and more have elevated a coordinated group of 12 players to something that's far too great.

It's equally absurd to expect players not to do the utmost possible and use these methods let alone report them for doing so(!!), and it's on ZOS to establish more reasonable limitations.

DO SOMETHING, ZOS.

I’m very sensible, I just disagree with you.
Try to get some friends and work together as pvp is designed. You think it’s any different from pve like a coordinated vet trial group?

I meant that nobody sensible thinks that anyone should be punished for (as you said) "teaming up with others, coordinating, and working together."

Nobody sensible does, it's just people frustrated by the absurdity of Ball Groups' strength that are voicing that here out of desperation. They likely don't *really* think Ball groupers are violating the ToS either, deep down inside.

My post was saying that it's ridiculous to report them (it is), but it's absolutely time for ZOS to step in and limit the crazy levels BGs attain with sets/items, abilities, scribing, and current synergy. It's so out of hand that players are wondering if it somehow breaks rules (it doesn't) and reaching for any option they can grab to dial it in.

You and I are agreeing. Grouping is fine/important/massively beneficial, and reporting it is stupid/incorrect. Very true.

Stacking mechanics and tools for Ball Groups are insanely out of hand, and need to be reined in. Also, very true.

It's on ZOS to fix that, and it has been for quite a while.

Turtle_Bot · March 16

reazea wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

I can totally relate to the OP's point, although not entirely. Ball groups are not, according to the letter of the law, exploiting.

But, ZOS has neglected balance and performance issues in Cyrodiil for so long that ZOS has created a situation where coordinated groups can stack so many heals and shields that they are indestructible, just as though they were exploiting. It's hard to look at a group of 12 players having 12 instances of vigor, 12 instances of radiating regen and 12 instances of two different shields on all 12 group members as anything other than exploiting at this point.

To date, even though this issue has been discussed ad infinitum for more than several years on this forum, ZOS has yet to comment on the problem. So it's not exploiting in a ToS violating way, but it absolutely is exploiting a broken system that ZOS refuses to fix/balance. They haven't even admitted their neglect let alone the impacts on Cyrodiil their neglect has had on performance and the joy sucking ball groups exploiting the system ZOS allows to exist.

There is no debating that reducing shield and heal stacking to only one instance of each HoT and shield per player at any given time would greatly reduce server load and improve performance. So why hasn't ZOS even tried a fix that is so obvious and begged for over years?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

This is my question as well. Why isn't there any focus on fixing the few sets and issues causing such imbalance in Cyrodiil instead of starting over from scratch with a very dumbed down template version of cyrodiil?

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

iirc the vengeance tests are about server performance, not about game balance.

This doesn't excuse not addressing things like Rush, snowtreaders and heal/shield stacking mechanics that have enabled current ball group imbalance for such a long time, but something does need to be done about performance in cyrodiil in general (that has gotten much worse this patch) as well as addressing game balance.

Amottica · March 16

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

Large organized groups, which seem to be what we call ball groups, do play the objectives. The group I play with, typically 4-6 players and sometimes as many as 8, captures and defends the keeps and resources. We do not always play with the horde since it is occasionally logical for a well-organized group to take another objective or location that needs defending.

In other words, sometimes we relieve the pressure on the location most players are trying to take or defend, which ultimately helps the horde.

We have also taken scrolls for the silly reason of bringing them back to a keep in our alliance, which makes our alliance stronger and other alliances weaker. That is not an AP farm but a logical and tactical mission.

And I find this cut and run statement interesting. Maybe that is when we leave the massive group of people and take another resource to harm the enemy or defend another location that is important to keep. That is hardly cut and run.

We are a competent group because we are very organized, have strong leadership, and are all on comms. This gives us a huge advantage over most groups of equal size and even larger.