Should ball groups violate TOS?

forum_gpt · March 6

Oh, absolutely, let's ban players for... playing the game well? If ball groups were truly an 'exploit,' ZOS would have banned them ages ago. Instead, they've adjusted mechanics multiple times without outright removing the playstyle. Weird how that works. Maybe, just maybe, the issue isn't 'exploits' but rather some people not adapting? Balance patches exist. Counters exist. Crying for bans doesn’t make you better at PvP.

ZOS_Kevin · March 6

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

spartaxoxo · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

I am glad to see this issue is being addressed in the next PvP Q&A. It's nice to see that not only the TOS question being answered, but also the more legitimate concerns are getting answered as well.

There are many reasons I don't PvP and Ball groups is one of them! And I know I have seen so much frustration about this being expressed by people who do PvP. So, it's nice to hear that this is being addressed in the next Q&A.

CatoUnchained · March 6

crappyjazz1964 wrote: »

I know it's frustrating to fight them. So I joined one. There is so much work and coordination that goes into them, it's really quite beautiful.

I used to run with one of the sweatiest ball groups I think of all time and there was nothing beautiful about it. It wasn't even very fun, and that was when there were decent counters to ball groups still so there was some challenge to it, unlike now. It wasn't near as fun as solo play and 1vX'ing or running in a small group of friends with essentially uncoordinated builds.

React · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

While I do think it should be obvious to anybody that coordinated group play doesn't violate the TOS, I do want to point out this is the very first time I have ever seen a zenimax employee even acknowledge ball groups, which I think has been the number one complaint for the majority of the PVP community going on years now.

I'll withhold what I'd really like to say regarding ballgroups until the Q&A you're referencing drops. But I must also point out that it's not just that we don't have the "tools to disrupt them", but that the combat team has actively removed them or prevented them from functioning. Azureblight for example was one of the few things that was more effective against a ballgroup than when being utilized by one, and it was made into a PVE only set after several complaint threads from players within those groups.

An even more egregious example might be snake in the stars. This set was introduced after numerous threads complaining about the stacking of same morph HOTs, something responsible for a huge amount of the over-the-top survivability of these groups. In theory, this is the perfect set to counter this behavior - but for some reason the set has a global cooldown instead of a per target cooldown, resulting in it being completely worthless against these groups.

The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all.

I hope the Q&A has some real insight to offer into these concerns. It'll be supremely frustrating if it doesn't, given that we now know zenimax is aware of these behaviors and the community's concerns regarding them.

CatoUnchained · March 6

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

While I do think it should be obvious to anybody that coordinated group play doesn't violate the TOS, I do want to point out this is the very first time I have ever seen a zenimax employee even acknowledge ball groups, which I think has been the number one complaint for the majority of the PVP community going on years now.

I'll withhold what I'd really like to say regarding ballgroups until the Q&A you're referencing drops. But I must also point out that it's not just that we don't have the "tools to disrupt them", but that the combat team has actively removed them or prevented them from functioning. Azureblight for example was one of the few things that was more effective against a ballgroup than when being utilized by one, and it was made into a PVE only set after several complaint threads from players within those groups.

An even more egregious example might be snake in the stars. This set was introduced after numerous threads complaining about the stacking of same morph HOTs, something responsible for a huge amount of the over-the-top survivability of these groups. In theory, this is the perfect set to counter this behavior - but for some reason the set has a global cooldown instead of a per target cooldown, resulting in it being completely worthless against these groups.

The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all.

I hope the Q&A has some real insight to offer into these concerns. It'll be supremely frustrating if it doesn't, given that we now know zenimax is aware of these behaviors and the community's concerns regarding them.

Oh, and the biggest oversight by ZOS to date, around any set ever IMO, is ZOS' failure to reign in RoA. That set is pure toxic by design and they haven't done anything about it.

I'm also concerned that there will actually be a PvP Q&A. We never got the promised QA after U35 or the PvP QA session discussed after the new BG release just recently.

RaidingTraiding · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If you want to help players fight a coordinated group you can start by getting rid of rush of agony, so they don't get yo yoed into insta death every time you try to engage them.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 6

I think the issue is not that Ball Groups are violating TOS or not.

The issue is that balance wise "Ball Group" play-style was actually NEVER addressed, hence it is so far out into space when it comes to effort vs effectives that it indeed looks like cheating, while it is not.

I mean for real. Since the game got released back in 2014, this play-style was only receiving indirect and sometimes even direct buffs, while every other class or play-style got gutted a couple of times & then a couple of times more. What is also weird that a lot of players do have actually pretty good ideas on to how address "Ball Group" problem while not reducing effectiveness of anything else. ZOS is not doing this, and like I have mentioned - after 10+ years of "preferential treatment" it is hard not to think that ZOS regards Ball Groups as their PvP target audience, hence they are not nerfing them.

I mean, there has to be a logical reason, and this is the only thing that comes to my mind.

Orbital78 · March 6

sans-culottes wrote: »

Good post. The multiboxing comparison is unfair. While these can be annoying for other players, they take coordination, etc. Having said that, it’d be nice to have some tools to counter ball groups more effectively.

Whenever they add a tool to combat large groups like this, they just end up using it.

Unless they are breaking ToS/EULA, I don't see how it could be against the rules. I hate running into ball groups as a solo player, you can use your brain as to when you are being farmed. The only real answer is coordinating yourselves or getting really good at coordinating bombings.

Erissime · March 6

My only issue about "coordinated playstyle" is how absurdly powerful it is vs also groups, but of random people, gathering for a fun night out in Cyrodiil. Yeah, them zergs, as so hautily everyone calls them, but which are ultimately the base of Cyrodiil "groups". Even actual friends gathering together for a bit of pvp fun don't blow a candle vs a ballgroup. And it stands to reason that a healer, a tank, some basic coordination ( like synergies) are a must within groups. This does not mean that everyone has the patience to voice-chat every stranger out there so they can: 3-2-1 NOW ---> dump a load of synergies and ultimates and everything a ballgroup has instantly on a person or a group of randoms. What is more absurd about this whole playstyle is the absolute boredom it brings, simply because they are "immortal" and nobody likes having to do again and again the same thing. Never you mind how they only run around, never standing their ground for an actual fight. So except ego, I really see no particular beauty about this playstyle. Either to be a part of, or fight against. It is not challenging, is downright boring. And being a part of, feels equally boring and repetitive, with the add up stress of timetables and voicechats. How is that fun?
After having met plenty of said ballgroupers solo though it makes sense people afraid of actual pvp to create such absurdities, only and only for the sake of staying alive and killing - together. Cause their majority don't blow a candle on their own to an actual pvper. And another reason they are so absurd, is their incapability of moving the map. They literally offer nothing to their respective alliances, for they usually take one thing and run inside there annoying everyone present rather than taking keeps, posts, objectives. And the worse I've seen? Trolling. Many pick a scroll and "farm" players with it until they loose it, also in the detriment of their respective alliances. How is that ok? Half the times a ball picks a scroll usually ends up lost - please consider this and the fair-playness of it all. It is not about "coordinated playstyle" but about fair-play and player behaviour. So I still consider ZOS's best bet (in stead of taking every random's word - like myself) is to literally log into Cyrodiil and play themselves, or setup a team for this specific reason, in each alliance, and send them in Cyrodiil, under-cover if need be, nobody needs to know they are from ZOS - and see the fair-playness of it all first hand.

And to not sound an absolute troll myself, for the sake of underlining the difference between "coordinated playstyle" and "player behaviour" I will only say that I have reached the point in which I admire the ballgroups which mind their own business and take a scroll to their alliance after picking it up! Those do feel like truly willing to help their alliances, and not just selfishly running around for their own benefit. Be it ap, or even "fame" (I know it sounds absurd but it's amazing what people will do just to be remembered, even in a game!).

Soarora · March 6

Cyrodiil is an active warzone, why wouldn’t there be ball groups? The alliances aren’t gonna send people out on their own, they’re gonna send coordinated squads. Is it fun to fight against a ball group? No. But if any one kind of group should be in Cyrodiil… it’s ball groups.

tomofhyrule · March 6

CatoUnchained wrote: »

I'm also concerned that there will actually be a PvP Q&A. We never got the promised QA after U35 or the PvP QA session discussed after the new BG release just recently.

No, we didn't get the U35 one - they changed that to a dev post on combat ideology - but saying we didn't get the PvP Q&A is a blatantly false statement.

Here it is: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/674000/battlegrounds-misc-pvp-questions-community-q-a/p1
That's actually part 2 of a 3-part PvP Q&A, where part 1 specifically dealt with the upcoming Vengeance campaign test (the Q&A is here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672867/cyrodiil-champions-live-test-community-q-a/p1 , and they also had an impromptu Twitch livestream discussing the same here: ) Part 2 deals with BGs and general PvP, and Part 3 will deal with Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

So yes, considering that the "PvP Q&A" became a 3-part thing focusing on various aspects of PvP and the first two of those have releases, I do think the chances of getting the third part are very likely. And if you're looking for the BG Q&A specifically, that's the 'part 2' one that was posted literally 6 days ago and is still stickied on top of this forum.

spartaxoxo · March 6

CatoUnchained wrote: »

I'm also concerned that there will actually be a PvP Q&A. We never got the promised QA after U35 or the PvP QA session discussed after the new BG release just recently.

They replaced the U35 Q&A with a developer deep dive, which they told us they were doing prior to replacing it.

ETA: Here's the statement when they released its replacement.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi everyone. We know everyone has been asking about the Q&A related to combat. After internal conversations with the team, we have decided to shift from a Q&A. Instead, we've gone through the questions many have been asking and taken those back to the combat team to address the core themes we saw asked across the community. With that, the combat team has drafted an ESO Combat Vision statement, designed to give the community a clearer picture around the goals the combat team has always strived for and will continue to strive for. You can find the statement here for the forum discussion link. While we know the Q&A was initially proposed, we hope the statement helps to clarify some questions around the vision for ESO combat. Thanks for your patience around this topic.

We did get the PvP Q&A session after BGs.

Part 1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672867/cyrodiil-champions-live-test-community-q-a/p

Part 2
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/674000/battlegrounds-misc-pvp-questions-community-q-a/p1

Edit

Also according to this there's a couple more Q&As to come.

This next one covers questions and answers about Battlegrounds as well as a few miscellaneous PvP-related topics. We do still have a Cyrodiil & Imperial City and PvP Combat & Itemization sets in progress.

DrGIggles80 · March 6

So increase server size so we have even bigger zergs but kill ball groups so no one can combat the zergs effectively. Got it.

Asdara · March 6

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

I read the OP's post as claiming that the insane heal and shield stacking in groups could be and probably should be considered an exploit of the inherent systems ZOS put in place for groups. This is fine for PvE situations, but it is killing PvP. Ball groups as they are today and for the last year plus are indestructible. There is no way to defend against them and thus far ZOS has refused to address the issue in any capacity (despite daily posts on this forum about the problem) beyond reducing group size to half what it should be for PvP guild raids.

exactly my point, thank you

Erissime · March 6

DragonRacer wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

Guess the highly-coordinated and synergizing vet trial HM trifecta runners are the OP's next target? It's the same concept, right, just PvE rather than PvP?

My thoughts exactly. Ballgroups feel like pvers trying to enforce THAT playstyle on pvp. Is it against TOS? No. Is it fair? so-so. I mean if it's out there, why not do it, right? Is it fun? - well I wrote about that above, so I'll just stick to a simple "no". People play for fun, not to have a second job with schedules and rules and all the rest of it.

ajkb78 · March 6

No.

I dislike ball groups as much as anyone else but this is a completely nonsense argument in every respect.

Ball groups should be dealt with by ZoS implementing item set or gameplay changes that reduce their effectiveness. But if they're using item sets and skills provided by the game as per the set's implementation then that's "play however you want", which is another of the game's core tenets.

How exactly do you imagine this could be enforced? Would players need a tape measure to make sure there weren't too many of them close enough together to accidentally count as a ball group? Ludicrous. And given how toxic some elements of the PVP community can be I can't imagine a rule more likely to encourage Karening and bad-faith reporting of players.

I've been reading these forums for many years but this is without a doubt one of the worst suggestions I've ever read here.

Erissime · March 6

Yeah I will say it again briefly, for it appears nobody really points out the true issue of ballgroups: player behaviour and fair-play! That is the issue with these groups, and not their respective playstyle. Perhaps a new thread should be started with ways to tackle that ( though it is really hard to find solutions to something like this) - especially since they do not break any obvious rules.

MedicInTheWild · March 6

My biggest complaint is the ability to spawn kill on trans shrine, not saying make it invincible but cooldown so they cant just run through and spawn kill over and over while "farming" a keep that is unlit.

Ballgroups will never cease to exist I do agree that sometimes when grouped certain abilities become overpowered but while solo they suck, henceforth while so many have suggested % reduction of skills when groups per person grouped.........

Octagneh · March 6

Ballgroup - noun - In a Zenimax game it is where 12 people are having fun and 288 people are not.

I found this caption on a gamer publication website. I played in Cyrodiil in the 2020-2023 era. It was a period of time they didn't really have ballgroups. I stopped just after the plague break/dark convergence craze. Cyro became less and less fun as it matured to where it is today. I stepped into Cyro for this last Whitestrake event. Yeah, I'm going to give that a solid "NO". I couldn't believe it still had the "can not mount in combat" crap. Literally, I was gobsmacked. How long has it been now? Four years? That's like going to Taco Bell and ordering a #5 combo and it takes five months to make it to the counter. It is literally this simple, you go in the code to where it checks to see if the subject is engaged in combat before mounting, and you snip it out, check dependencies, hooks, and references, debug, close and compile. Until you can code this properly, you error on the side of the paying customer. If you can not solve major game breaking issues like this....for years...you are wasting your time and money trying to pump sunshine into other or new features in 2025. When half of one team can't make it on time to the next battle, and much more of the other team can, just by happenstance odds of who was affected by a bug and who wasn't....THAT is not balanced. That is not skill. All that is....is vegas odds on which team was randomly effected by bad code vs the other team that was allowed more participants to show up timely.

Erissime · March 6

Unexperienced people die on ball groups because they act like moth on lighbulbs they chase and charge like bulls and they wonder why they die 1 vs 12.

To support my statement about the lack of fair-play these groups sport, I will only say that while you are absolutely right - how come their alimighty 12 (or more !) invincible selves stoop to chasing ONE player? And how fair is it to die in 12 vs 1? (again, I lived through many of these balls bursts, and remaining alone I was literally chased as a single player by their lot!). Simple experience - denoting player behaviour. The zerg was several meters away. Is not like they were out of options. What is the meaning of this? (the question is rethorical by and by). And this is a very small and insignificant example of the type of things these groups stress on players. Not a complaint, an example. There are many more.

Major_Toughness · March 6

Asdara wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

Ball groups, like multiboxing, exploit game mechanics to remove meaningful counterplay. ZOS banned multiboxing not because it used third-party software, but because it warped PvP balance by creating an artificial advantage. Ball groups do the same—by stacking healing, mitigation, and synergies beyond normal limits, they trivialize damage and make most counters ineffective.

You argue that stacking these mechanics is intended, but if that were true, ZOS wouldn’t have repeatedly nerfed AoE healing, mitigation, and group synergies. The fact that they keep trying to weaken this playstyle proves it’s an exploit of current mechanics, not an intended design.

As for counterplay, the “counters” you list—burst damage, snares, siege—don’t work in practice. If they did, ball groups wouldn’t be dominating Cyrodiil. Siege should counter them, yet cold fire barely dents them. Burst damage is meaningless when they layer healing and mitigation. The only real counter? Another, stronger ball group—which proves the meta is broken.

ZOS hasn’t outright banned ball groups yet, but neither did they ban multiboxing immediately. That changed when they saw the damage it did to PvP balance—just like ball groups are doing now. If ZOS is serious about fair play, it’s time to classify ball grouping as an exploit and act accordingly.

What game mechanics are they exploiting? What are the "unintended interactions" they are abusing?

I hate ball-groups as much as anyone, and actively targetted them with my friends when Azureblight was the only counter to them. So much so that the arguably best ball-group on our server changed their setups because of us.

Not the same ones who brigaded the forums to get it nerfed may I add, that was all PC NA players who couldn't adapt.

But the false accusations that they are exploiting nameless limitations that you have imagined does nothing but hurt the valid arguments and complaints against ball-groups.

kargen27 · March 6

The absolute best counter to ball groups is to not chase them. It gets silly watching a ball group move around building up so they can lure players to a choke point and unleash on them. The dead rise just to give chase right back to that same choke point.
Watch them for a bit and you can easily predict when they are going to turn around and drop all they can on the players chasing them. Make the ball group come out in the open, mark one of them and jump. It is harder for them to stay clumped together if you lure them away from structures. The main reason players die to ball groups is they engage the group in a tight area. Restricted space is to their advantage so when you see the group run through a small area don't follow. Either run around it or stop and make them come back through.
There are skills you can use to separate one member from the ball. Do that and then before they can catch back up to the group drop them. Fighting the whole group isn't going to go well so go gorilla tactic on them. Keep moving away from them and then pick one off when the opportunity presents itself.
If nothing else refusing to give chase will cause them to go elsewhere to find their fun. It can get boring running through choke points when nobody will follow.

Erissime · March 6

Ah yes, the incredibly unfair behavior of checks notes planning ahead...

Imagine reading everything before posting, especially when there are words denoting of repetitiveness in a post!

ZOS_GregoryV · March 6

Greetings all,

After removing some non-constructive posts, we would like to remind all members of the community to please be sure to keep all comments on the more constructive side, and within the guidelines of the Community Rules.

Regards,
-Greg-

Erissime · March 6

I guess I picked on the thread before its name-change. So more to the point: Ballgroups cannot violate TOS, for if they would so would everyone else in pve, especially trial-prog groups. They should be addressed though on account of all the things written above by so many, of which from my pov, player-behaviour is their worst attachment, and not their playstyle (which as also pointed by others can be countered and by non-ball players).

Asdara · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

Hi ZOS_Kevin,

I appreciate you taking the time to chime in on this, and I understand the stance that coordinated play itself isn't a violation of the Terms of Service. You're absolutely right in stating that coordination between players in PvP isn't inherently problematic, and it’s something that has always been a core part of ESO's design. However, I think there's a deeper issue that needs to be addressed, one that relates to how the mechanics that enable these coordinated groups are currently skewing PvP balance in a way that isn’t healthy for the long-term experience.

As many players have pointed out, the issue isn’t that ball groups are organizing and working together—there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem comes when certain mechanics allow this coordination to become overwhelmingly effective to the point of breaking the balance. The stacking of healing, mitigation, and synergies within these groups goes beyond just effective teamwork—it creates an uncounterable force that renders many standard PvP strategies ineffective. As players who engage with the game’s mechanics, we know that ZOS has been attempting to address this imbalance through balance changes, but those changes haven’t gone far enough to truly rein in the issue.

The community’s frustration stems not from the idea of group coordination but from the fact that the tools provided by the game enable a specific style of play to dominate the PvP space in a way that makes it feel like the only viable option. This results in a metagame where only large, well-coordinated ball groups are competitive, effectively sidelining smaller groups, solo players, and a wide variety of tactics. This undermines the diversity and strategy that PvP should encourage.

I understand that ZOS has been making changes to address this, but based on the ongoing feedback from the community, it’s clear that these changes haven’t had the intended effect of balancing the game. Siege weapons and strategies like Negate Magic or bomb groups are often cited as counters, but these solutions are theoretical and often fail in practice, especially when facing groups that have optimized synergy stacking to such a high degree. These mechanics are effectively turning what should be dynamic PvP into a stale, repetitive experience, where the outcome of a battle often depends on which ball group is involved, rather than the skill and creativity of the players.

The argument isn't about banning or punishing coordinated play—it’s about refining the mechanics that allow these groups to become overpowered and creating a more balanced environment for PvP as a whole. ZOS’s goal should be to ensure that all types of playstyles—solo players, small groups, and large coordinated teams—have a fair chance of success and that no one style dominates to the point of making other options obsolete.

I look forward to hearing more about this in the upcoming PvP Q&A, and I hope that this issue can be addressed with the same attention to balance that has been applied to other areas of the game. Ultimately, this is about improving the PvP experience for everyone and ensuring that the competitive environment remains diverse, engaging, and fair for all players.

Thank you for listening, and I look forward to future updates on this topic!

Udrath · March 6

The problem is the sets they are stacking are unbalanced for PvP group play.

Amottica · March 7

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

Good question.

Cyrodiil was designed with group play in mind. In Cyrodiil and PvE raids, a group of regular players learns what skills, gear, and more make a great combination. If players run in less organized groups, that is a choice.

By no means is this in itself considered an exploit. We are talking about a group of wise, organized players per the description described in the opening of the OP.

I just saw Kevin's post. Spot on. Spot on.

HatchetHaro · March 7

first of all, of course it doesn't violate ToS lmao.

i think one of the issues is that ball group setups just aren't accessible.

due to the nature of cyrodiil pvp, most players simply just pug it or join a scheduled group in some random Discord servers. most people just don't see ball groups that often, especially when they're focused on zergs and what's immediately lit on the map. most pvp videos and build guides are usually 1vX builds. that's what i mean about ball group setups being inaccessible: you have to be able to find one to join one, get their requested setups, theorycraft group compositions and sets with them, etc, and that's just not something most people want to do.

there's also a massive amount of power disparity between optimized ball group sets and a rag-tag zerg of min-maxed 1vXers; the difference is night-and-day.

i know that ZOS specifically said that the Vengeance test is solely for performance and nothing else, but in my eyes, standardizing sets and loadouts is probably the best thing they can do to balance PvP properly.