PvP player perspective on why PvP players kill friendly "questers" / PvE geared players.

ApoAlaia · March 2

SpiritKitten wrote: »

You can get tickets for Whitestrakes without even participating in pvp.

Pretty much.

Cyro you can get a scouting or a FG quest; chances of even meeting another player if you go to an empty-ish 7-day campaign: very low.

IC if you pick the Elven Gardens quest, bring a 'stealthy' build and avoid the busiest times in all likelihood you will be in and out in a couple of minutes without any encounters of the PvP variety (and even if you do for some some reason, release, up the ladder you go and pick up where you left off, you cannot lose any tel var if you are carrying none if that is a source of bother).

AvalonRanger · March 2

Most poor idea but effective way is "to add non PVP mode switch for story and PVE daily".

.....What? Is it unfair? Why?

It's totally no problem, Dev team had already divided people by meta rules and system just like
different game title players through this 10 years.
And, not less people reject ESO PVP as wrong designed PVP game. And, never improved through
this 10 years also.

AvalonRanger · March 2

[7race] * [12 gear slot] * [3attribute point with wide variant] * [12 champion point] * [ 1 mundus] * [7 class passive]
*[10 skill slot] * [and with tons of set gears]= almost several hundred or more than 1000 variant actually exist.

It's a already chaos at all.

If I'm PVP game planner, I don't want to make PVP game with those condition.
Change it "7 fixed parameter PVP class" with small customized aspect.
No aim bot. But plenty of environment gimmick. Not only character based game.

Most of major PVP combat game is just like that. And has AAA quality.

cptscotty · March 3

Why in this game do so many people join pvp areas and expect, if not demand, that they be left out of pvp?

Turtle_Bot · March 3

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

You might wanna call in zone chat, if a ganker or other aggresive player is spoted in the town. Most of the times someone expirinced will come and hunt them down. A lot of PvPers also have no soft feelings for gankers.

This. 99.9% of the time, if a ganker is camping a town and it gets called out in zone chat, there will be a group of PvPers there within a minute or so (especially if they can port there) that will hunt down said ganker, repeatedly sending them back to whichever city is the capital of their alliance until they leave the town alone.

Majority of PvPers don't take kindly to gankers (especially gankers who are known to repeatedly third party in fights and other similar behaviors) and will not hesitate to hunt down said gankers with quite some vigor.

Turtle_Bot · March 3

I also want to point out a few tips (that have been pointed out on every single other thread like this one that always pops up during the MYM events) for completing quests, earning tickets, etc during MYM events for those who absolutely cannot stand PvP at all.

Cyrodiil

Scouting quests
These quests are fetch quests and don't require any combat, build, skills or anything at all except the ability to mount up and ride somewhere to press [E] then ride back to base.

Completing a scouting quest in Cyrodiil will take 5-10 minutes (depending if your alliance owns the map which determines how far you will need to ride to reach the assigned resource to scout). But it is nothing more difficult than an overland fetch quest, especially if you don't ride along the main routes between keeps (indicated by the coloured lines on the map that shows the linked keeps for an alliance). This quest is super easy to complete, even if your alliance owns literally nothing on the map, because most of the time, you won't see anyone from another alliance outside of the area's between 2 keeps owned by different alliances and 99.99% of players you run into "behind enemy lines" will be other questers (who also want to be left alone).
This gives 2 tickets for the cost of 5-10 mins riding time and pressing [E] once.

Imperial City

1. Arena zone daily quest
This quest can be completed without having to even jump down off the platform and even without having to enter combat at all.

Completing the arena daily quest in IC is even easier than a scouting quest in Cyrodiil. Standing on top of the spawn platform, you can easily use ranged attacks to kill the NPCs below, thus "freeing the civilians" and completing the quest. While doing this can leave you potentially vulnerable to ranged attacks from below, it is possible to "crouch" up on that spawn platform, up against the wall and just wait, afk while those who pass through (or other players on the platform kill the NPCs) and the quest will tick up and complete. This takes 5-10 mins at most and requires literally nothing, not even playing the game to complete it.
This gives the 3rd ticket for the cost of 5 mins afk time.

Total of 5-10 mins of riding a mount + 3-5 mins afk time (while doing other things) and that's 3 daily tickets + associated reward coffers, zero combat required, zero interactions with other players. The hardest thing about completing these quests is organizing the loot obtained from the reward coffers.

Yes the Golden Pursuits will require some more effort to complete than collecting the daily event tickets, but the rewards for that are:
- 2 PvP specific currencies, and
- 1 PvP themed harvesting cosmetic.
Hardly anything that could be considered mandatory to playing the game, especially for playing the PvE side of the game.

Ishtarknows · March 3

I've been finding that there's a correlation between people who complain about fake roles in random normal dungeons and people who join battlegrounds in PvE gear. The hypocrisy is amusing (when they're in the opposite team, not so amusing when in my team).

spartaxoxo · March 3

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I've been finding that there's a correlation between people who complain about fake roles in random normal dungeons and people who join battlegrounds in PvE gear. The hypocrisy is amusing (when they're in the opposite team, not so amusing when in my team).

An entire build is pretty different than needing to slot a single skill to fulfill a role, which I think is the usual complaint. Although fake DPS would also need a real build. But yeah, people should be doing PvP in gear that would allow them to contribute to the objective.

Hapexamendios · March 3

When I go in to do quests in Cyrodiil, I check the map to see which alliance has the most advantageous position. I try to avoid towns and keeps held by other alliances. I will defend myself if attacked and if I die, I die. So be it.

licenturion · March 3

I don't see the problem.

As a PVE player I have to change my ways for like 10 days.

The PVP players have to put up with us for a whole year when we are logging in for our battleground daily, battleground quest, battleground endeavours and battleground pursuits and make threads about it every day how horrible it is. So it balances out.

ApoAlaia · March 3

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I've been finding that there's a correlation between people who complain about fake roles in random normal dungeons and people who join battlegrounds in PvE gear. The hypocrisy is amusing (when they're in the opposite team, not so amusing when in my team).

An entire build is pretty different than needing to slot a single skill to fulfill a role, which I think is the usual complaint. Although fake DPS would also need a real build. But yeah, people should be doing PvP in gear that would allow them to contribute to the objective.

It is uncanny how little difference that makes though.

In fact in many cases a [non-PvP competent] player joining BG with a PvE build that they know and are accustomed to may actually be more beneficial than joining with a PvP build that they've copied from MalcolM or w/e that they have neither the skill nor the understanding to 'run'.

Ultimately in ESO PvP doesn't have a learning curve, it has a learning cliff. The moment you are facing a skilled DK or Sorc you realise that the whole thing is hopeless, regardless of what you are 'wearing'.

That is in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario, if you are actually facing a coordinated team - which despite MMR and joining only 8v8 BGs happened surprisingly often to me while I was getting the Golden Pursuit completed - you may just stay at the spawn point.

One may delude oneself into thinking that there was a chance, but the reality is there was no such thing.

bzz86 · March 3

I absolutely hate being forced by the game to do event in PVP zone when I hate PVP in ESO.

I have stopped my subscription and just doing free model due to this event being so abusive.

I have kids, work and other obligations - with during the week about 20-45 minutes to play something. The waste of time I get from this event is so frustrating I am considering uninstalling ESO all together and just playing something that does not annoy me.

***Yes I wrote this being angry with people killing me when I just want to do 1 quest.

frogthroat · March 3

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I've been finding that there's a correlation between people who complain about fake roles in random normal dungeons and people who join battlegrounds in PvE gear. The hypocrisy is amusing (when they're in the opposite team, not so amusing when in my team).

What method did you use to find this correlation?

Both things happen, but I could not even begin to guess the overlap.

OsUfi · March 3

bzz86 wrote: »

I absolutely hate being forced by the game to do event in PVP zone when I hate PVP in ESO.

I have stopped my subscription and just doing free momol due to this event being so abusive.

I have kids, work and other obligigations - with durg the week about 20-45 minutes to play something. The waste of time I get from this event is so frustrating I am considering uninstalling ESO all together and just playing something that does not annoy me.

***Yes I wrote this being angry with people killing me when I just want to do 1 quest.

How did ZoS force you to do the event?

ApoAlaia · March 3

OsUfi wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

I absolutely hate being forced by the game to do event in PVP zone when I hate PVP in ESO.

I have stopped my subscription and just doing free momol due to this event being so abusive.

I have kids, work and other obligigations - with durg the week about 20-45 minutes to play something. The waste of time I get from this event is so frustrating I am considering uninstalling ESO all together and just playing something that does not annoy me.

***Yes I wrote this being angry with people killing me when I just want to do 1 quest.

How did ZoS force you to do the event?

I used to be of that mindset too until I pondered the matter a bit further.

The reality is that a significant portion of the game's reward system is designed to effectively exploit human psychology; it is not surprising that a sizeable chunk of the player base - myself included - falls for something that has been very deliberately and skillfully designed to prey on our... condition as human animals I guess?

I envy those who see through the smoke and mirrors and have developed a resistance to it though.

Turtle_Bot · March 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I also want to point out a few tips (that have been pointed out on every single other thread like this one that always pops up during the MYM events) for completing quests, earning tickets, etc during MYM events for those who absolutely cannot stand PvP at all.

Cyrodiil
Scouting quests
These quests are fetch quests and don't require any combat, build, skills or anything at all except the ability to mount up and ride somewhere to press [E] then ride back to base.

Completing a scouting quest in Cyrodiil will take 5-10 minutes (depending if your alliance owns the map which determines how far you will need to ride to reach the assigned resource to scout). But it is nothing more difficult than an overland fetch quest, especially if you don't ride along the main routes between keeps (indicated by the coloured lines on the map that shows the linked keeps for an alliance). This quest is super easy to complete, even if your alliance owns literally nothing on the map, because most of the time, you won't see anyone from another alliance outside of the area's between 2 keeps owned by different alliances and 99.99% of players you run into "behind enemy lines" will be other questers (who also want to be left alone).
This gives 2 tickets for the cost of 5-10 mins riding time and pressing [E] once.

Imperial City
1. Arena zone daily quest
This quest can be completed without having to even jump down off the platform and even without having to enter combat at all.

Completing the arena daily quest in IC is even easier than a scouting quest in Cyrodiil. Standing on top of the spawn platform, you can easily use ranged attacks to kill the NPCs below, thus "freeing the civilians" and completing the quest. While doing this can leave you potentially vulnerable to ranged attacks from below, it is possible to "crouch" up on that spawn platform, up against the wall and just wait, afk while those who pass through (or other players on the platform kill the NPCs) and the quest will tick up and complete. This takes 5-10 mins at most and requires literally nothing, not even playing the game to complete it.
This gives the 3rd ticket for the cost of 5 mins afk time.

Total of 5-10 mins of riding a mount + 3-5 mins afk time (while doing other things) and that's 3 daily tickets + associated reward coffers, zero combat required, zero interactions with other players. The hardest thing about completing these quests is organizing the loot obtained from the reward coffers.

Yes the Golden Pursuits will require some more effort to complete than collecting the daily event tickets, but the rewards for that are:
- 2 PvP specific currencies, and
- 1 PvP themed harvesting cosmetic.
Hardly anything that could be considered mandatory to playing the game, especially for playing the PvE side of the game.

@bzz86 Here are some tips to collect the PvP event tickets without having to do any PvP at all.
Should only take 10-15 minutes at most (most of that will be the scouting quest if your alliance doesn't own anything on the map), so should fit perfectly within your 20-45 minutes of available playtime.

Try to do the cyrodiil scouting quest in an empty campaign (preferably one that is majority held by whichever faction your character is part of). The 7-day campaigns will be the best options for this since the regular campaigns, greyhost, blackreach and ravenwatch tend to be very busy with PvP, but those campaigns can be a viable option if your faction owns the majority of the map.
The fighters guild quests are another option as well, they are slightly more involved than the scouting quests, but the advantage with these quests is that the NPCs you need to kill are not located at a PvP objective, so it's even less likely to run into enemies while doing these quests.

The arena zone for IC, is easiest on the busy campaigns since you don't have to drop down off the spawn platforms to fill that quest, so staying hidden in crouch, on top of the platform, against the wall while others kill the NPCs is the easiest thing to do since there are NPCs within reach of each alliances spawn platforms and those will count while you are crouched up there.

Doing some PvP will be required for the golden pursuits, but the cyrodiil ones are easy enough (if one town is hard/camped/not owned by your alliance the 7-day campaigns allow faction swapping if you have characters on other factions).
For the non-town tasks in Cyrodiil, the best thing to do is just join the busy campaigns and follow the big zergs. Yes you will get killed, but with a big enough group the action is often spread out enough to where it can still be fun, even if you just go in there with a tanky build and spam group heals on your allies and try to resurrect those who have fallen, that will still be a big help and may even result in your group getting their own kills (which will still give you plenty of alliance points).

Something that may help (if you're on PC, idk if it's possible on console), is to have a separate tab setup in the chat window that only shows chat by group members, friends and guilds (with zone chat disabled), that way once you've found a group to follow, you can switch the chat box to that chat tab to ignore the constant zone chat banter/commentary and just keep the important chat from the group, friends and guild.

Digibrax · March 3

SilverBride wrote: »

I really don't see how this is an issue.

Cyrodiil and Imperial City are war zones. They are not safe places. If a PvE player chooses to quest in these zones they assume the risk of being defeated by other players. There is no assumption that a player shouldn't be attacked just because they are questing. No player needs any reason to attack another player in these zones other than that they are there.

LOL, that's not how even real life war(s) work. Sometimes, people just don't want to fight even if thy are in a war zone... If people are questing, let them quest.

necro_the_crafter · March 3

Digibrax wrote: »

LOL, that's not how even real life war(s) work. Sometimes, people just don't want to fight even if thy are in a war zone... If people are questing, let them quest.

Yeah, sure. But you will still have enemy allince banner on top of youe head in PvP. If you could go in cyro as a civillian, conversation would have been turned 180.

If you want IRL expamles - Imagine a guy who took paid contract to join the military and end up on a battle field. His goal was to make some money for serving the military, he might even had himself no intent to fight an enemy.
But if the opposing solider see him and starts to attack would it be fair, to attatck the solider that joined just for money?

There is no single correct answer, as question is about phylosophy, morals and etic, wich is quite different between individuals.

But you wont be a criminal and will not face prosecution for killing an enemy, even if he intended no harm.

[edit]
If said soliders superiors would seen that he is not willing to participate in combat, they might as well end his contract early and send him home before he finishes his training.
So, projecting it on a ESO, if your intent is only to quest but still reap all the rewards game shouldnt allow you to do that, if you are not ready for PvP.

But thankfully, games and real life are different, and we have our little place to escape reality and lose ourselfs in fantasy.

SilverBride · March 3

Digibrax wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I really don't see how this is an issue.

Cyrodiil and Imperial City are war zones. They are not safe places. If a PvE player chooses to quest in these zones they assume the risk of being defeated by other players. There is no assumption that a player shouldn't be attacked just because they are questing. No player needs any reason to attack another player in these zones other than that they are there.

LOL, that's not how even real life war(s) work. Sometimes, people just don't want to fight even if thy are in a war zone... If people are questing, let them quest.

We can't compare war in a game to real life war. Real life war is brutal, and I'm sure many would rather not be there. But the worst that can happen here is it could take longer to complete a quest.

This is the first year I participated in this event because I just wasn't interested in PvP before. But I've started doing some battlegrounds and found I enjoyed it so I gave it a try and have had a good time. But I didn't feel like I was missing out before, and I didn't feel forced into doing it now. And I certainly didn't expect others to cater to me and not attack me while I was participating.

sans-culottes · March 3

SilverBride wrote: »

[

We can't compare war in a game to real life war. Real life war is brutal, and I'm sure many would rather not be there. But the worst that can happen here is it could take longer to complete a quest.

This is the first year I participated in this event because I just wasn't interested in PvP before. But I've started doing some battlegrounds and found I enjoyed it so I gave it a try and have had a good time. But I didn't feel like I was missing out before, and I didn't feel forced into doing it now. And I certainly didn't expect others to cater to me and not attack me while I was participating.

This is point is well made. It’s annoying to get ganked when you’re trying to complete a quest, but it’s also not fair to compare war as it actually is to this gamified approximation of it.

El_Borracho · March 3

The flip side to this is I went into Ravenwatch with a pure PVE ARCANIST build and was wiping the floor with most of the players in there. Did I die when I came across a good PVPer? You bet. But those seemed to be few and far between.

langewapper · March 3

most of the pvp gankers in bruma or vast and so are pvp losers who cant kill a good pvp player
so now they can kill a poor pve player and think they are good at pvp

OsUfi · March 3

ApoAlaia wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

I absolutely hate being forced by the game to do event in PVP zone when I hate PVP in ESO.

I have stopped my subscription and just doing free momol due to this event being so abusive.

I have kids, work and other obligigations - with durg the week about 20-45 minutes to play something. The waste of time I get from this event is so frustrating I am considering uninstalling ESO all together and just playing something that does not annoy me.

***Yes I wrote this being angry with people killing me when I just want to do 1 quest.

How did ZoS force you to do the event?

I used to be of that mindset too until I pondered the matter a bit further.

The reality is that a significant portion of the game's reward system is designed to effectively exploit human psychology; it is not surprising that a
sizeable chunk of the player base - myself included - falls for something that has been very deliberately and skillfully designed to prey on our... condition as human animals I guess?

I envy those who see through the smoke and mirrors and have developed a resistance to it though.

ZOS provide us with events so we can earn things in game. Something players have been asking for for brummy years. They are also all completely skip able.

No smoke and mirrors. No exploiting beyond some basic game marketing.

Kirawolfe · March 3

I'm a PVEr and I have no issues with being mulched wearing my PVE gear in a PVP zone because I'm not geared and prepped properly for PVP. Wouldn't expect otherwise.

I don't attack questers, but I will throw myself at folks trying to take flags. I expect that I will not win against folks who know what they're doing. I don't like it when folks camp quest givers for easy kills and will call them out in zone for doing that, but it's still PVP. To expect someone to not kill someone else in these zones is unrealistic. To expect that you will be left alone is unrealistic.

I think PVP is important (in zones set up for it) because it adds an unpredictable element to the game that you don't find after playing PVE for ages, it adds to the lifespan of the game for many because of this, and it can be a ton of fun. For me, the fun comes from claiming back towns, keeps, etc, using siege, grabbing flags, and the like. Taking people out is incidental.

Tenn60 · March 3

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

And this is why I as a PvE'er stopped questing in PvP alltogether.

PvP draws toxic people or turns people toxic.

How do you know it's not PvE that draws toxic people or turns people toxic? We all start out as PvE players after all, right? How do you know it's not PvE players camping the quest givers in the towns? Personally I've never seen a regular PvP player camp the PvE quest givers in Cyrodiil. That's not PvP. That's just low rewards trollish behavior. Just about any other activity in Cyro will yield more AP and fun.

Endgame pve I would agree does have a tendency to be rather toxic, but PvP in general in any game is gonna produce toxic people. The sad thing is is it is PvPers that tend to do that kind of stuff but they are usually not very good and so killing questers or bombing on the train is just their way to boost their ego. But I’ve seen pvp turn people way more toxic than pve ever has in at least a grand scheme because everybody is gonna get mad and everybody is gonna get bombed and everybody is gonna die when all they were doing is blank, and because it’s a person and not a npc people at times are going to take it more personal. Not saying it’s a bad thing or a good thing it’s just how pvp is. I think the higher end pvpers are actually pvping, but the people that struggle in regular pvp this is there time to shine.

Wereswan · March 3

langewapper wrote: »

most of the pvp gankers in bruma or vast and so are pvp losers who cant kill a good pvp player
so now they can kill a poor pve player and think they are good at pvp

It used to be the case that self-inflicted deaths did not count against your K/D ratio in GTAO, so the tryhards would throw a bunch of sticky bombs around the area they were fighting in, and blow themselves up the moment they took any damage. Some of them also had suicide macros they'd trigger at the first sign of trouble. You could get these twits to roll around blowing themselves up over and over, and in the end they'd go away bragging about how "good" they were because their precious K/D ratio never dropped.

The rules of what defines "good" may change, but you'll always find that element looking to artificially boost their score somehow.

Amottica · March 3

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The answer is simple, they do this because they are not skilled enough to kill other PvP players, they attack a PvE player because the PvE player is ill-equipped to fight back so for them it is something easier, more catered to their skill level.

If you admit to doing this you're also admitting that your not good at fighting.

How is a player supposed to look at another player and KNOW if they are a PvP player, or a PvE player, or how geared and skilled they are?

PvP players may do quests, too. Just because they are questing doesn't mean they are an underskilled and undergeared PvE player.

Well if they are doing questing why would they be attacking other players? for one they will run directly at you, usually self-buffing before they reach you.

It is pretty obvious.

If a PvP player is doing PvE quests in a PvP zone, then they are still a PvP player and everything is fair game in such a situation. If they see a target while doing the PvE quests, it makes sense to buff up on the way to the target they spotted.

I hope this resolves that question.

El_Borracho · March 3

Wereswan wrote: »

langewapper wrote: »

most of the pvp gankers in bruma or vast and so are pvp losers who cant kill a good pvp player
so now they can kill a poor pve player and think they are good at pvp

It used to be the case that self-inflicted deaths did not count against your K/D ratio in GTAO, so the tryhards would throw a bunch of sticky bombs around the area they were fighting in, and blow themselves up the moment they took any damage. Some of them also had suicide macros they'd trigger at the first sign of trouble. You could get these twits to roll around blowing themselves up over and over, and in the end they'd go away bragging about how "good" they were because their precious K/D ratio never dropped.

The rules of what defines "good" may change, but you'll always find that element looking to artificially boost their score somehow.

Ahh, yes, I remember those try-hards. Can't snipe, can't dodge, can't do anything other than fire RPGs or fly their oppressor. There really isn't a corollary in ESO to the KDR crowd, but camping at Bruma for PVE players during events instead of fighting other PVPers comes close.

Is it part of the game? Sure. But so are bots farming nodes or public dungeons, which takes almost as much effort as killing a PVE player trying to buy gear in Bruma.

Blood_again · March 6

Wereswan wrote: »

It used to be the case that self-inflicted deaths did not count against your K/D ratio in GTAO, so the tryhards would throw a bunch of sticky bombs around the area they were fighting in, and blow themselves up the moment they took any damage.

Something like that happened in the beginning of IC. The TV loss was different: 80% lost if a player killed you, 20% if it was a mob.
That motivated players to run through the district and aggro as many mobs as possible, including boss, in any player-kill danger. The goal was to get a deathblow from a mob and port to base with 80% TV saved. Logical, but totally broken playstyle as a result.
Fortunately that mess was solved by equal 50% for all after time.