PvP player perspective on why PvP players kill friendly "questers" / PvE geared players.

SeaGtGruff · March 1

Heelie wrote: »

This thread got derailed into the same conversation that has been here for ages. Instead arriving at the point that PvP should be as consensual as possible. It's very common for PvP players to leave each other alone. Ball group players are blacklisted on community servers for chasing solo player or small scalers. 3rd partying someone dueling is considered bad manners as well. Cyrodill is not as simple as you see someone -> you kill someone. Most PvP players will try and judge if someone wants to fight or not(keeps are implicit consent).This goes back to my original point, PvE players / Questers have gotten a reputation for 3rd partying, if you're in this group and want to be left alone, stop 3rd partying. Then the majority of players will also leave you alone. But as long as the average experience of PvP players is that PvE specs will 3rd party me as soon as I start a fight. They will kill them on sight. No actual PvP player endorses the idea that everyone is fair game. Even if you're an alliance lock Andy. The person whom you just 3rd partyed might be your next BG team mate. PvP is a large string of unspoken rules and balances. And avoid 3rd partying is one of those rules. So don't do if you want to stay in the good books.

Could you explain what you mean about "3rd partying," especially in reference to players dueling? If you mean what I think you mean, then how is someone supposed to know when two enemy players are dueling each other 1v1 and want to be left alone while they duel to see who's the better of the two?

Case in point, during a previous Mayhem event I accepted a Capture Resource mission which was to capture one of the Blue Road Keep resources (I forget which one). I took the Transitus network from the Southern High Rock base to Chalman, which my alliance controlled, then rode out of the keep to head toward Blue Road Keep to carry out my mission. While I was passing by Chalman Lumbermill, I saw a DC player and an EP player fighting it out, so I rushed over to help. At that point, my fellow DC player backs away and lets the EP player wipe me out easy-peasey. When I saw my fellow DC player back off and stand there doing nothing, it dawned on me that they were probably dueling, so I revived inside Chalman and just rode to Blue Road Keep for my mission, probable duelers be damned.

So my question is, how is someone who's riding along and sees one of their fellow faction members fighting an enemy player expected to know that they're dueling each other and don't want anyone else to interfere? Why wouldn't players think they're expected to help their fellow faction members win fights against the enemy?

But maybe you're talking about something else?

baratron · March 1

I've come to accept ganking as the inevitable result of mixed PvP/PvE zones.

I don't mind being ganked by people stealthed up on quest locations or turn-in spots, but for gods' sake let me get the quest item first.

I GENUINELY don't mind IF they let me hand in my quest/pick up my new quest/collect my item and then burst out of stealth to murder me. Sometimes it's even helpful! A quick blood port across the map to do something else.

But it's rude and aggravating to get murdered in the little room and NOT be able to grab the Ritual Wine or the Barrel of Tar.

AngryPenguin · March 1

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Granted, I have plenty of issues, which I have discussed at length, with PvP and the PvP community. Especially in IC.

With that said, all of the people complaining about being attacked when they're just peacefully doing quests (which, for the record, they're almost never "peacefully" doing anything as soon as a second member of their faction shows up and they find some gumption in their boots) is kind of wild to me.

It's like shark attacks. Shark attacks are super easy to prevent: Don't go into the ocean. They can't come out and get ya.

PvP zones are the same way. Sharks live there. Is every shark going to kill you? No. But the one shark that wants to kill you is also there. The best way (and the only sure way) to avoid that shark is to stay out of the water. At the very least, if you're going into the water, you've got to be aware of and prepared for the possibility that a shark might show up. And it might try to eat you.

And even the sharks that don't want to kill you may still accidentally take a bite out of you. I was defending Bruma from a duo, we just had a heckin' fight on the dolmen flag that I somehow won, probably through luck, since I have no right to even be entering 1vX, much less winning it. I was pumped and pleased with myself. I ran around to the outlier flag, and ran past another member of the same faction. Assuming they were also here to flip Bruma, I unloaded a Surprise Attack as they passed me and came around to engage.

Then I noticed that my single Surprise Attack had taken them from 100% to somewhere around 30ish%. I was like "Oh. That's a quester. Oops. Nevermind!" and disengaged.

If I hadn't noticed their health before coming about for a full broadside, I'd have shredded them. The point being, sharks sometimes mistake surfers for food.

I understand that we'd all like to have the option to enjoy the ocean without worrying about sharks. But they're there, and they're dangerous, so entering the ocean means being prepared to encounter one. Especially since we (sharks) have no way to know who's another shark and who's a surfer, except by how quickly they die when we bite them.

I feel like IC is too full of sharks (bigger sharks than me) and I'm tired of being sharked there. So I don't go there. I stay out of that part of the ocean.

(Point of clarification: shark attacks are very rare, don't get mad at sharks IRL, they're just a vehicle for my metaphor.)

Don't worry. In game death is not real death and it's painless.

Calastir · March 1

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

OsUfi · March 1

Calastir wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

Aha, we're back to toxic PVP again are we? You do like that word. How about we say a noisy minority are toxic. Just like the mid-tier PvE crowd in dungeons who run, fake role, trash talk anyone in non meta gear, even in normal mode when I'm out DPSing the fake healer as a light armour tank with taunt. Cause boy howdy, I can tell you some stories. I am exclusively solo PvE and solo & group PvP because I find that naffy part of the PvE community so vile.

necro_the_crafter · March 1

Calastir wrote: »

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

Stop blaming people for playing the game how they want within this game boundries.
Get over dying in PvP. Or don't participate in it.
Queing for PvP campaign is an act of consent for PvP, end of story.

necro_the_crafter · March 1

That is 3 minor changes that would help all parties out:

1. Mounting in combat.
Speed in the game is laready quite problematic so might as well allow us to mount in combat. Its already balanced as risk-reward, since you risking being dismounted (read unbreakable stun), and get a mounted speed in reward.

2. Add portal to base to support skill line, or as an infinate use consumable.
You already can register for IC if you in Cyro and vice versa, so might as well turn that feature off in combat and instead give us a skill in support tree that can conjure portal to allince base/sewers. Or make it consumable that is given after introductary quest in IC or Cyro. For balance purposes make it interaptable 2-5 seconds cast-time.

3. Might as well add non-allince or adventurer as PvE only option for PvP zones.
So you will be protected from PvP. Might as well deny any AP/Tel-var rewards for non-allince characters, and let them safely explore and quest in PvP locations, but not allowing them to participate and get rewards from PvP.

GloatingSwine · March 1

Calastir wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

If you're in a PvP zone, you're a PvP player.

You opted in and consented to PvP at all times and in all circumstances the moment you entered Cyrodiil or Imperial City.

Calastir · March 1

OsUfi wrote: »

Aha, we're back to toxic PVP again are we? You do like that word.

Like I've said before, this forum doesn't allow the words I'd choose.

And judging from some posts here, there are children present.

spartaxoxo · March 1

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

If you're in a PvP zone, you're a PvP player.

You opted in and consented to PvP at all times and in all circumstances the moment you entered Cyrodiil or Imperial City.

Eh. If someone doesn't want to be viewed negatively, they shouldn't purposefully camp weaker opponents.

That said, there's a pretty big difference between camping and just doing normal PvP in the zone. There is no off limits area. If you enter PvP you should expect to be killed. Killing other players is the point of the content. So I agree as a general rule

magnusthorek · March 1

Bringing something that was very well written in the Cobra Kai TV show — at least the first few seasons, sadly — to the ESO's universe is that not having mercy of your opponent doesn't mean kill someone weak, alone, minding their own business on sight. An honourable fight takes place on medium/big groups, regardless if they're organized or experienced.

And, unfortunately, for the vast majority of times, Cyrodiil lacks this honour factor.

JemadarofCaerSalis · March 1

baratron wrote: »

I've come to accept ganking as the inevitable result of mixed PvP/PvE zones.

I don't mind being ganked by people stealthed up on quest locations or turn-in spots, but for gods' sake let me get the quest item first.

I GENUINELY don't mind IF they let me hand in my quest/pick up my new quest/collect my item and then burst out of stealth to murder me. Sometimes it's even helpful! A quick blood port across the map to do something else.

But it's rude and aggravating to get murdered in the little room and NOT be able to grab the Ritual Wine or the Barrel of Tar.

Honestly this is how I feel.

I got killed plenty of times in IC/Cyro, and it was honestly less than I expected.

But, the other day, I needed one more ticket to fill up my ticket counter (so I can start with 12 event in case it has things I really want), and IC didn't have any zones in my favor, so I went to cyro.

Went there and both Vlastrius and Cropsford belonged to my alliance so went to cropsford. Got the quest, and started looking and got killed. I got killed like 5 times (because the quest meant I had to run around cropsford to look for something) and kept trying to turn in the quest and kept getting killed before I could do so.

Because there were two campers there who were killing anyone going to do the quest. They weren't trying to flip the town, I could easily revive in that town and it was never shown as being under attack. They were just there to kill people trying to get/turn in quests.

So, I finally gave up, because while there it was just a line of XXX killed YYYY in Cropsford in chat. I abandoned that quest and went to Vlas, only to find out there was another camper there, from a different alliance, doing the same thing (though they weren't as efficient, I got in, got the quest, went and completed it and then turned it in without being killed once) But, once again, the town didn't say it was under attack, so they weren't trying to flip the town to their alliance.

As for going in groups, honestly, I don't know how it is for the other alliances, but I got like two groups during the entire event, and I was actively looking for them. No one in my guilds seemed to be doing the event (or weren't in my alliance) and asking in group chat just brought crickets. So not even that was a viable option to do things for the most part.

That is what I found frustrating (along with just running to a specific area and suddenly being killed before I even knew anyone was there, though that is more frustrating due to how the reviving works, and needing to revive back at a specific spot which then means I have to make the trek back to where I wanted to go again), not being able to turn in quests, not because the town was under attack, but just because there were people who just wanted to camp.

SilverBride · March 1

Calastir wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

Blame for what toxic behavior? Defeating an enemy player in a PVP zone during a PVP event is not toxic. Players enjoy defeating other players. If they didn't enjoy it PvP wouldn't exist.

I'm sure there are plenty of players that don't normally PvP doing their share of ganking, too. And so what if they are? It's not toxic no matter who is doing it to who. It's PvP.

Julia_Nix · March 1

It is what it is. I'm not a PVP player but I understand that in PVP zone that's what players do - PVP stuff. No one force PVE players to do the event. There are ton of PVE events so let the PVPers have this one. This event is also a way to give PVErs incentive to try PVP (pvp gear, skills and builds)

Lixiviant · March 1

Julia_Nix wrote: »

It is what it is. I'm not a PVP player but I understand that in PVP zone that's what players do - PVP stuff. No one force PVE players to do the event. There are ton of PVE events so let the PVPers have this one. This event is also a way to give PVErs incentive to try PVP (pvp gear, skills and builds)

Well, yes they do force some of us. There are some pretty nice rewards for the Golden Pursuits I would like but can't due to the guys sitting in the Cyrodiil towns ganking people. I mean, just let me turn in my quests and then kill me if you want.

SilverBride · March 1

Lixiviant wrote: »

...just let me turn in my quests and then kill me if you want.

We don't get to choose when we can or can't be attacked in a PvP zone.

VoxAdActa · March 1

Lixiviant wrote: »

Julia_Nix wrote: »

It is what it is. I'm not a PVP player but I understand that in PVP zone that's what players do - PVP stuff. No one force PVE players to do the event. There are ton of PVE events so let the PVPers have this one. This event is also a way to give PVErs incentive to try PVP (pvp gear, skills and builds)

Well, yes they do force some of us. There are some pretty nice rewards for the Golden Pursuits I would like but can't due to the guys sitting in the Cyrodiil towns ganking people. I mean, just let me turn in my quests and then kill me if you want.

I guess the cute little harvesting emote can be considered a "pretty nice reward" (to each their own), but why the plural? There's only one reward you can only get from doing the event tasks. Everything else in the boon boxes can not only be bought, it can be bought super cheap. All this year's ticket merch will be buyable, with tickets still left over, even if you skip this event entirely. What's the other "pretty nice" reward you have to do the event for?

GloatingSwine · March 1

Lixiviant wrote: »

Julia_Nix wrote: »

It is what it is. I'm not a PVP player but I understand that in PVP zone that's what players do - PVP stuff. No one force PVE players to do the event. There are ton of PVE events so let the PVPers have this one. This event is also a way to give PVErs incentive to try PVP (pvp gear, skills and builds)

Well, yes they do force some of us. There are some pretty nice rewards for the Golden Pursuits I would like but can't due to the guys sitting in the Cyrodiil towns ganking people. I mean, just let me turn in my quests and then kill me if you want.

That's not being forced, that's you looking at the price of a thing and then complaining about it whilst you pay it anyway.

If there was a login notice saying "If you don't max your golden pursuits ZOS will come and burn your house down and steal your dog" that's being forced.

Lixiviant · March 1

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Lixiviant wrote: »

Julia_Nix wrote: »

It is what it is. I'm not a PVP player but I understand that in PVP zone that's what players do - PVP stuff. No one force PVE players to do the event. There are ton of PVE events so let the PVPers have this one. This event is also a way to give PVErs incentive to try PVP (pvp gear, skills and builds)

Well, yes they do force some of us. There are some pretty nice rewards for the Golden Pursuits I would like but can't due to the guys sitting in the Cyrodiil towns ganking people. I mean, just let me turn in my quests and then kill me if you want.

That's not being forced, that's you looking at the price of a thing and then complaining about it whilst you pay it anyway.

If there was a login notice saying "If you don't max your golden pursuits ZOS will come and burn your house down and steal your dog" that's being forced.

Chill out. I'm not complaining about being in PVP, I was simply responding for the people who hate PVP. I enjoy the campaigns. I was being facetious when saying just kill me after I turn in my quests.

Estin · March 1

I killed what I would assume to be a PvEer in IC last night. They didn't have much health, nor fought back much, and they were questing from the looks of it, but they got too close to me when I was capturing a flag, so I killed them. Ended up getting roughly 10k telvar from the kill. I would've let them live had they gotten nowhere near me, but now I don't think I can take any chances of not going after someone if they are going to drop 10k telvar.

Lixiviant · March 1

Estin wrote: »

I killed what I would assume to be a PvEer in IC last night. They didn't have much health, nor fought back much, and they were questing from the looks of it, but they got too close to me when I was capturing a flag, so I killed them. Ended up getting roughly 10k telvar from the kill. I would've let them live had they gotten nowhere near me, but now I don't think I can take any chances of not going after someone if they are going to drop 10k telvar.

This game is reminding me of GTAV when you kill anyone who gets in your radius LOL

JemadarofCaerSalis · March 1

Estin wrote: »

I killed what I would assume to be a PvEer in IC last night. They didn't have much health, nor fought back much, and they were questing from the looks of it, but they got too close to me when I was capturing a flag, so I killed them. Ended up getting roughly 10k telvar from the kill. I would've let them live had they gotten nowhere near me, but now I don't think I can take any chances of not going after someone if they are going to drop 10k telvar.

This reminds me of when I first set foot in IC, whoever killed me got a boatload of Tel var. Up until this event, I didn't know you could bank the telvar, and I just completely overlooked the little arrow on the screen so I had something like 80K when I first entered.

Now I bank all currencies before I go into any PvP zone, so good luck getting it from me :P

Lixiviant · March 1

I learned something new this week: I was jumping around the tower in IC and someone yanked me off of it - immediately killed me. Of course I had 5000 Tel var on me....

I learned a new skill: Frozen Gate lol

spartaxoxo · March 1

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Because there were two campers there who were killing anyone going to do the quest. They weren't trying to flip the town, I could easily revive in that town and it was never shown as being under attack. They were just there to kill people trying to get/turn in quests.

Yeah, this is the type of killing that I would consider toxic. They aren't there to do PvP objectives or to fight PvPers. They're specifically going out of their way to hunt down people weaker than them because PvE players will be there for the event. There's no glory in that. It is just pathetic. And usually done by people who aren't good at PvP from my experience. I've seen such dudes eliminated by actually good PvPers a couple of times with a simple shout to zone chat.

necro_the_crafter · March 1

Cyrodiil and IC is PvP sandbox. Your stragegies limited only by yours imagination and dedication. If you want do dedicate yourself to go through event like this painlessly you might as well prepare yourself, here is few advices for those willing to listen:

1.If gankers are annoying - be annoying to gankers. Reveal pots might be expensive but sentry set is not. By simply seeing the ganker you would have higher chanse of avoiding gank.
To be extra annoying call in zone chat evrytime some gankers camp at town. If somone arrives to help, you have to help them spot the ganker with yours sentry set. Activate your sentry set and try to pull ganker closer to players that came to deal with them, with either leashing soul(scribing), silver leash(fighters guild), or any pull avaliable to your class wich are frozen gate and DK chains.

2. If your thinking that most of PvPers are one man armies, able to fight any amount of players at once - you are wrong. All of the 1vX videos you seen is one good player fighting X less expirienced players. 1 good player can't fight 2 good players. Even two bad player can become an issue for them, if said player are built correctly.

Step one:
Dont die in two hits!

Run chest, legs, shoulder(or helm or boots) as heavy with Reinforced trait, gold them out if you want to have extra resistances.
Rest of the pieces might be either medium or light, if you gonna run transmutation set on back bar or ralliyng cry(sets that gives crit resistance on proc), you want theese pieces well-fitted if you dont plan to rely on blocking, sturdy if you do.
If you dont run crit resist sets just make those impen.
Stack all of attribute points into health run all health enchants on armor.
Use all recovery/reduce cost glyphs on your jewelry.
Run jewels of misrule as food, as it gives max health and nice hybrid sustain. Choose atronach or serpent mundus, since they most stat-dense stones in the game. All of yours cp have to be in mitigation - Ironclad, Duelist, Resiliance, Focused Mending, Fortified, Heros Vigor, Survival Instincts, Celerity - those are yours best friends.
Slot reveal spell from the support to get extra mana regen and major protection at all times.
You want to use health scaling heals/shields that are avaliable to your class, as well as some hots (Vigor from assault/Regeneration from restro staff)
You want to use your classes armor buff and keep it at all times.
You might run sets like defending warrior, leeching plate, crimson twilight, bahraha curse to get even more healing.

Step two (optional):
Fight back!

If you have friend you can team up with, you can run all-oblivion setups, and make any player that you encouter expirience a battle of attrition. In this build you want to use sload slembrance set, Jerall monster helm set, infused destro staff with oblivion enchant, one of you might also slot snake in the stars, and the other ralliyng cry to buff you both with extra damage and crit resistance. This setup doesnt rely on damage from stats(maxc stats, weapon and spell damage, crit, etc), so you can stack everything into sustain and tankiness, while your damage is scaling only with enemy health, and supplemented with a healing reduction.
Also dont forget about the power of pulls, low health player that seeks to LoS behind nearest rock would die after nicely placed pull.

3. Never forget about sieges. If you had made a tanky build, and players still bothering you althought they cant kill you, setup a few fire/coldfire ballistas and shoot them. Right in their face. You might get interrupted here and there, but after you break free from interupt you can continue to set up/repair/use sieges unbothered, Siege Master set also synergises extreamly well with tanky setup, and that playstyle in particular. Also might as well set a camp near town upon entering, so you can resp there, wait out while attackers are gone, and then turn in your quest.

4. Buy invis potions from vendors. Use them cleverly. Fake backing up, use pot and change direction immidiatly. 8/10 times you will escape encounter just like that.

zaria · March 1

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I killed what I would assume to be a PvEer in IC last night. They didn't have much health, nor fought back much, and they were questing from the looks of it, but they got too close to me when I was capturing a flag, so I killed them. Ended up getting roughly 10k telvar from the kill. I would've let them live had they gotten nowhere near me, but now I don't think I can take any chances of not going after someone if they are going to drop 10k telvar.

This reminds me of when I first set foot in IC, whoever killed me got a boatload of Tel var. Up until this event, I didn't know you could bank the telvar, and I just completely overlooked the little arrow on the screen so I had something like 80K when I first entered.

Now I bank all currencies before I go into any PvP zone, so good luck getting it from me :P

Remember once I entered on my nightblade to get some quests done so I had some spares.
PvE stealth build but not stealthy then killing mobs so some fool tried to kill me, well I killed him and got over 10.000 telvar.
Got an achievement for it 😺

zaria · March 1

I say in towns or delves its bad form to kill solo players doing quests or skyhards.
It happens but mostly not, now this require that you run away.
Remember an delve I did the skyshard, then wanted to do the delve boss, started with an AoE on boss and saw an enemy player. I rolled away so did he, we then killed the boss and he went for skyshard I think.
My guess is that he was watching something on screen two while waiting in sneak for boss, he did not se it respawn but noticed he took damage.
Also fishing in Cyrodil

IC is very different as distances and reaction times are much lower so you will get attacked. It can be done but you want to go in slow hours and be stealthy.

blktauna · March 2

Calastir wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whitestrake's Mayhem and the Golden Pursuits are bringing in a lot of players that don't normally spend time in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Everyone assumes that the gankers are all PvPers, when in fact it may be those not familiar with PvP doing a lot of the ganking.

Stop trying to shift the blame. Several PvP players in this thread have already admitted their toxic behavior. Gleefully, even.

stop trying to accuse every PVP player of the same. Your ire is fruitless. Pick a dead campaign on off hours and use a stealth build. You will not run into anyone and get your questing done easily. You have been repeatedly given the knowledge on how to avoid what you dislike.

SpiritKitten · March 2

You can get tickets for Whitestrakes without even participating in pvp.

RebornV3x · March 2

From my PVP experience its always for cheap thrills and its funny. Its a pvp area either accept being ganked or prepare your gear properly. Its gank or be ganked defend yourself at all times and all that but I realized theirs no sport in killing questers it a waste of time. If I meet a solo player out in the open, IC, or in a town as long as they aren't taking flags I leave them be.

The only time I might kill questers is if there's more than 2+ in the general area since they will almost always backstab and ambush you if they think they have the numbers advantage. don't know how many times Ive let the pve guy live only to get rushed by like 3 other pve lowbies as I'm turning in a quest.