Erickson9610 wrote: »

Why not add a set that buffs players for having low movement speed.

They sorta have some. Sea Serpent's Coil, really strong mythic and I think people still use it in duels, but in open world it's mostly been replaced in the meta for brawler builds by Saint and Seducer, which is only a small downgrade in power with no speed drawback. There's also the tank set Ironblood, which saw niche play before its nerf.

While I love going fast on my DK, I'll agree that speed creep is a problem, you shouldn't be obligated to build so much speed just to keep up and land hits. I also miss when StamSorc had a distinct "speed demon" class identity.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Why not add a set that buffs players for having low movement speed.

They sorta have some. Sea Serpent's Coil, really strong mythic and I think people still use it in duels, but in open world it's mostly been replaced in the meta for brawler builds by Saint and Seducer, which is only a small downgrade in power with no speed drawback. There's also the tank set Ironblood, which saw niche play before its nerf.

While I love going fast on my DK, I'll agree that speed creep is a problem, you shouldn't be obligated to build so much speed just to keep up and land hits. I also miss when StamSorc had a distinct "speed demon" class identity.

I kinda miss Ironblood.

Changing it to a named buff instead of a % just made it entirely worthless, but the kiss/curse of it was pretty fair prior to that.

Also, nice fight the other day Xy. You were indeed fast on your DK, when you got tired of our unending exchange (and thank God because I was too but am not fast enough to run away. )

What about:

Undying Light:

When a player you have recently attacked or has recently attacked you in the last 10 seconds goes invisible they take x oblivion damage and are exposed, increasing the oblivion damage by 100% for successive attempts to go invisible within 4 seconds.

Or:

Ranger's Bane:

When you are attacked by successive attacks within 3 seconds, from an enemy further than x meters, they are pulled to you, cc'd and silenced for 3 seconds. The silence cannot be purged.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I wish there was a set that would deflect 100% of Proc Set Damage back to the attacker...

Impermeable Mirror:

When an enemy attempts to damage you with a proc set 100% of the damage is instantly reflected back to the enemy, increasing by 50% for each attempt to damage you with proc sets within x seconds.

Your damage done is decreased by x percent and you cannot wear proc sets (or, you can wear them but the 5 piece is disabled).

This effect can occur once per second per enemy.

These sets all directly counter a certain play styles that i think we need more of. In some form or another. I am not sure if these examples would be broken or not. They are just ideas.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

These sets all directly counter a certain play styles that i think we need more of. In some form or another. I am not sure if these examples would be broken or not. They are just ideas.

It's a hard thing to balance. The old Shield Breaker was useless against health builds, but pretty much auto killed the average shield build. You don't want your targeted counterplay to render its target unplayable, that's not balance. The Shield Breaker rework was really cool design, giving a moderate 6% damage against everyone, and then a strong 12% into shield builds, but sadly 6% that doesn't carry over bars is too mid these days.

TheValkyn wrote: »

Long time PvP player here. Over the years I’ve watched the power creep reach, what I would have called 10 years ago, absurdly imbalanced. One of the stats that is insanely out of balance is movement speed. There are so many track stars out there. So, I have a suggestion for a new set called “Coward’s Remorse”.

When you cause direct damage on a target you curse them with Coward’s Remorse’. Each second the target sprints grants a stack of Remorse. Once the target reaches 12 stacks they violently explode. Each second the target is not sprinting removes a stack.

That’s it. They just die.

Love the concept but I don't think this would play nice with calculations.

Iriidius wrote: »

Seems like the main effect of this set would be to punish players sprinting away from a fight which is ok to punish if the player is running with your scroll or from a fair fight preferring to fight unfair but not if player trying to escape is outnumbered/outbuild.

This is an important point, outnumbered players still need a chance to survive for chaotic open world PvP to function. Making it easier to zerg down solos is the last thing this PvP needs.

As one such "track star" the OP mentions, I should add that there does exist decent counterplay to speed and kite tactics. The things that give me the most trouble when I'm running from zergs are Plar beams, Meteors, ranged pressure from MagSorcs, ranged cc like Dazing Soul, rooting poisons, and gap closer spam.

TheValkyn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Seems like the main effect of this set would be to punish players sprinting away from a fight which is ok to punish if the player is running with your scroll or from a fair fight preferring to fight unfair but not if player trying to escape is outnumbered/outbuild.

This is an important point, outnumbered players still need a chance to survive for chaotic open world PvP to function. Making it easier to zerg down solos is the last thing this PvP needs.

This also means that people can run away from a single player. This point is as invalid as any. There needs to be penalty to putting yourself in a bad situation altogether.

How do you put yourself in a bad situation if you see a group or stronger player that you already know you have no chance to win against arrive at the horizon or from behind an object breaking line of sight and immediately get chased down and attacked other than by unknowingly beeing at the wrong location at the wrong time?
As soon as you know and see them it is already too late to avoid the fight.

TheValkyn wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

Long time PvP player here. Over the years I’ve watched the power creep reach, what I would have called 10 years ago, absurdly imbalanced. One of the stats that is insanely out of balance is movement speed. There are so many track stars out there. So, I have a suggestion for a new set called “Coward’s Remorse”.

When you cause direct damage on a target you curse them with Coward’s Remorse’. Each second the target sprints grants a stack of Remorse. Once the target reaches 12 stacks they violently explode. Each second the target is not sprinting removes a stack.

That’s it. They just die.

Most players get high movement speed by major or minor expedition, celerity cp or swift jewelry and rately have to sprint. Sprinting players also cant use any skills, pots, light or heavy attacks, dodge or do anything else while sprinting. Moving fast while fighting also does not make you a coward except you are constantly kiting on a range build against one equal or outnumbered players.

Seems like the main effect of this set would be to punish players sprinting away from a fight which is ok to punish if the player is running with your scroll or from a fair fight preferring to fight unfair but not if player trying to escape is outnumbered/outbuild.

What’s the difference in running away from a single player and running away from a Zerg? This is not a good argument.

When players see me (by myself) they run away. Why should they just get to peace out back to their Zerg with 0 penalty?

If being able to disengage and run away is the end result then what’s the point of playing PvP at all?

When you are outnumbered by not 1vXable group the fight is not fair or winnable at all and running away is your only chance to survive.
Fighting a much better (geared) player can also be unwinnable but at least the other players wins by beeing more skilled at combat or making/copying builds while the Xv1 groups do not even try to play better and outplay their victim.
A set punishing players for running away would be used mainly by Xv1 gankers because competitive players/duellists need sets helping them to win competitive fights while Xv1 ganker have already much more ressoursses than their target and each players sets have much lower part on dmg so they can sacrifice one to autokill runners.

TheValkyn wrote: »

When players see me (by myself) they run away. Why should they just get to peace out back to their Zerg with 0 penalty?

So players should be punished just for seeing you 1v1?
If players run from you 1v1 against you you are probably attacking weaker players. That doesnt mean all of them are zerglings. Real zerglings are almost always with their zerg and rarely alone and rarely have to „ get to peace out back to their Zerg“.
But why should players stand and fight you if they cant win?

TheValkyn wrote: »

If being able to disengage and run away is the end result then what’s the point of playing PvP at all?

The point of PvP should be to have fights with open result where both sides have a chance to win and want to risk it ratherthan having fights where before the fight even starts the winner already knows that he will win and just has to catch his free ap/telvar and the looser that he will loose and die. But ESO PvP currently seems more about finding weaker or outnumbered players and chase and slaughter them.

TheValkyn wrote: »

Long time PvP player here. Over the years I’ve watched the power creep reach, what I would have called 10 years ago, absurdly imbalanced. One of the stats that is insanely out of balance is movement speed. There are so many track stars out there. So, I have a suggestion for a new set called “Coward’s Remorse”.

When you cause direct damage on a target you curse them with Coward’s Remorse’. Each second the target sprints grants a stack of Remorse. Once the target reaches 12 stacks they violently explode. Each second the target is not sprinting removes a stack.

That’s it. They just die.

Why are we cowards? Do you have any thoughts about how fast Sorcs can move when they're streaking or just against people who choose to focus on move speed? Have you seen videos online of how well one (or sometimes two Sorcs) can kite 5 to 6 people and can kill them all one by one while kiting ahead of them? Also, have you factored in all the CC, snares, roots, all the toxic CC that players have to do deal with in Cyrodiil? Because all of that by itself slows everyone down considerably (let alone all the trashy pull mechanics out there just massacring boat loads of players everywhere there's a siege).

The reason I move quickly is because, if I don't, then that is death. You have what, so many bombers, ranged attackers with Pulse, among other things, Sorcs moving faster than everyone else with streak, you got PvP group that refuse to support scroll runners, groups that refuse to heal or once again provide support for solo players, then there's incoming artillery fire that does loads of damage, speed is a necessity for some of us to play the game.

Move speed bonuses come at a cost. The first thing you have to do is get ready to give up something else. So for those of us who invest in speed, we have to give up other things. Especially if you're a solo player like me. Yes I'm moving faster than you, however I'm not moving faster than a sorc... and you know, this kind of reminds me of the cloak argument but there are ways of slowing people down.

I guess it's the difference of two squares. When I setup my PvP builds, I did not point fingers, I did not insult anyone, I did not cry for nerfs, I did not ask or require anyone else's permission, I had to learn to give up some things, so I would *no longer* get killed right away or flattened by an unkillable ball group. I learned by the numbers. And again, where is the complaint here about the ball groups? Speed helps people maneuver around them and to deal with them. I've been a PvPer for many years, so I know what I'm talking about. Got lots of experience.

Instead of asking to break something that's useful for people like me, instead of asking to force me to change, why not adapt yourself and produce a build that can slow people down? They're out there. Guess how I know that. I am sick of playing by other people's rules and getting no support and nothing but grief for it and I'm sick of all the complaints against things like move speed and cloak, when you have much bigger problems like all the damage Rush of Agony and Ball Groups are doing, all the things they're getting away with. But people want to continue to bash solo players, and it really feels like we get blamed for being strong or even innovative but nothing said against the real problems with Cyrodiil PvP.

There's always going to be a bigger fish or someone who puts more time and energy into part of the way they play the game. Always and you got to learn to deal with it instead of punishing players for making better builds. And that's all I have to say about this stuff.

brtomkin wrote: »

How about Reverse Vicious Death: When you die, for each player that damaged you in the last second, deal 10,000 oblivion damage to each of those players. If only one player does damage, heal that player to full.

So, if 4 players do damage to you in the second before you die, you deal 40,000 oblivion damage to each of those 4 players.

damage needs tripling and to ignore percent mitigation bonuses (iirc oblivion damage only ignores armor and shields)