It´s time to adjust Snowthreaders (PvP)

Major_Mangle · February 16

Some disclaimers before I continue:

Before anyone goes on about "PvP gets XYZ nerfed", Snowthreaders is commonly referred to as a PvP mythic in 99/100 scenarios and I´ve yet to see it being used in any competitive PvE setting ever since it was added to the game.
This isn´t an "anti-ballgroup" post, but rather a request to get proper balance to one of the more overperforming mythics in the game. While it´s very often used by ballgroup, "smaller" size groups of 3-6 utilizes this mythic very often as well.

With that said, lets get on with it.

Snowthreaders has in my opinion ever since being added to the game, been one of the most overperforming mythics in the game. For context this is what the item description says:

1 item: While you are in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed, but you cannot Sprint.

Now why is this a problem? Having counterplay measures in PvP is important for the sake of balance and a good experience. For most parts soft counters are often preferred over strict hard counters (at least if you ask me), and if hard counters exists they should be more restricted or at least very temporary. Snow threaders falls into the category of hard counters since it prevents you from becoming rooted or snared. While it does have the "kiss-curse" of not being able to sprint (which is 40% movement speed bonus iirc, feel free to correct me if I`m wrong on this) this penalty is too easy circumvented by movement speed bonuses such as swift jewelry trait, celerity CP node and movement speed bonuses such as major/minor expedition. Especially in an organized group setting. With 3 x swift, celerity and major expedition you´ll casually sit at 61 % movement speed increase. You could add another 15 % (usually through charging maneuver, should the group in question use this morph) which would put an entire group at 76 % movement speed (the cap is 100%, or 200% if you assume 100% base movement speed). So having an entire group sitting close to movement speed cap without being able to be slowed or rooted is in my opinion way too strong, essentially there is no counterplay to slow down such a group/comp with available tools in game, and for the group using this mythic there are very very few downsides (and this goes for anything from 4-12 man groups).

I´ve played in multiple groups ranging from the sizes of 3-8 players, and the difference not running snow threaders in some of these groups is astronomical to the point where certain groups can´t play without it. I personally believe that his mythic needs a rework where there can be a window where you can be rooted/slowed, or limit how much extra movement speed you can achieve while using this mythic.

On the other hand, being permanently rooted/slowed while PvP:ing isn´t a fun experience. Anyone playing around with skills like bombard knows how strong and infuriating that skill can be. My suggestion if a snow threaders rework were to happen, is to simultaneously change the duration of snare/root immunity to match the regulard CC/Stun immunity (which is 6-7 seconds iirc). That way you do get some counterplay towards high mobile targets, without the receiving end feeling like they can´t move around without getting stuck every 2-3 seconds.

I also don´t think there should be group wide buffs/skills that gives an entire group root/snare immunity (like or rapid maneuver). Snare/root immunity should be something each individual player has to take care of themselves.

ESO_Nightingale · February 16

me over here wishing the only snow elf mythic was a frost damage booster not.... that. i want another snow elf mythic...

maybe if they ever make solsthiem we can get one.

Duhne · February 16

This is true, many things allows to ignore core mechanics of the game too easily or break them.

The combat team doesn't seems to understand how important it is and that it destroys the flow of combat and balance.

olsborg · February 16

Would be more fun if they deleted ballgroups altogether, remove their crossheal stacking or something.

xylena_lazarow · February 16

olsborg wrote: »

Would be more fun if they deleted ballgroups altogether, remove their crossheal stacking or something.

They don't need to delete them, just make them less unfun to fight against. Getting rid of Snow Treaders and Rushing Agony would be a great start for making large scale more interactive for both zerg and ball.

WaywardArgonian · February 16

Major_Mangle wrote: »

On the other hand, being permanently rooted/slowed while PvP:ing isn´t a fun experience. Anyone playing around with skills like bombard knows how strong and infuriating that skill can be. My suggestion if a snow threaders rework were to happen, is to simultaneously change the duration of snare/root immunity to match the regulard CC/Stun immunity (which is 6-7 seconds iirc). That way you do get some counterplay towards high mobile targets, without the receiving end feeling like they can´t move around without getting stuck every 2-3 seconds.

If the snare immunity provided by skills such as Shuffle and Race Against Time is increased to 7 seconds, I'd be down for it.

I played ballgroups in no-CP, where Snow Treaders don't work, and when I switched to Gray Host, it was like a part of the skill requirement to play in a group like that was removed.

Erickson9610 · February 16

Snow Treaders is one of the only ways for Werewolf to get rid of snares. There's no snare purge in Werewolf's toolkit. Please don't remove that aspect of Snow Treaders.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 16

I definitely agree with OP on one thing: There are way too many "hard counters" in this game that basically make some mechanic close to useless or outright impossible to use, while also being a counter that does not have any signifact drawbacks or minimal drawbacks or the drawback can be too easily negated.

Having a minimal side effect to our build / combat effectives should be something reserved for "soft counters" while "hard counters" should come with more significant impact.

Basically Hard counters should make player to ask themself: I can use this skill/set/potion so that my opponents can't use this or that or have 90% reduced effectiveness in this, but should I really do so ? Cuz now I don't have access to this & that & my sustain/damage/defense will be lowered by this much.

Unfortunately, this is a trend ZOS started some time ago. At 1st those were sets, then mythic items and now we have scribing system. It all adds-up & it gets easier & easier to get away with using kiss-curse effects as those can be negated by more & more systems.

YandereGirlfriend · February 16

OP has a reasonable suggestion - but only, like they said, on the condition that it's predicated upon the Soft-CC immunity period being extended to 7 seconds as well as extending the duration of immunity/cleanse abilities such as Shuffle, Warden Wings, DK Wings, RAT, etc. to match that.

The reason why so many people use the Mythic is precisely because the game is SO tremendously bloated with Soft-CC sources already. Seriously, there is some form of Soft-CC stapled on to like 1/3 of the game's abilities, many of them in AOE. It's a symptom of the overall skill-bloat that has taken hold in the game over the last several years.

I would further propose that AOE Soft-CC abilities ought to be abolished outright or else be put on some form of Streak-style ramping cost to discourage the sort of mindless Bombard spam popular amongst the Xv1 set.

Like the OP said, precisely nobody enjoys the current, microscopically short, 2-second Soft-CC immunity period. It makes spamming things like RAT completely mandatory and eats a ridiculously large portion of overall combat GCDs. Which is such exhilarating gameplay.

Most players agree that CC should be intentional and part of a larger damage combo. Which is definitely not how it currently behaves with abilities such as Bombard. If you have single-target Soft-CC that are complementing traditional Stuns as part of a thoughtful combo, then we have advanced the overall level of PvP from where it currently stands.

ssewallb14_ESO · February 16

It's been time to adjust them for five years.

spartaxoxo · February 16

No. The overabundance of CC was one of the many reasons that I disliked pvp in this game. I'm glad Snow Treaders exists even though I don't PvP enough to bother with them to help deal with that.

Vulkunne · February 17

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Some disclaimers before I continue:
Before anyone goes on about "PvP gets XYZ nerfed", Snowthreaders is commonly referred to as a PvP mythic in 99/100 scenarios and I´ve yet to see it being used in any competitive PvE setting ever since it was added to the game.

This isn´t an "anti-ballgroup" post, but rather a request to get proper balance to one of the more overperforming mythics in the game. While it´s very often used by ballgroup, "smaller" size groups of 3-6 utilizes this mythic very often as well.

With that said, lets get on with it.

Snowthreaders has in my opinion ever since being added to the game, been one of the most overperforming mythics in the game. For context this is what the item description says:

1 item: While you are in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed, but you cannot Sprint.

Now why is this a problem? Having counterplay measures in PvP is important for the sake of balance and a good experience. For most parts soft counters are often preferred over strict hard counters (at least if you ask me), and if hard counters exists they should be more restricted or at least very temporary. Snow threaders falls into the category of hard counters since it prevents you from becoming rooted or snared. While it does have the "kiss-curse" of not being able to sprint (which is 40% movement speed bonus iirc, feel free to correct me if I`m wrong on this) this penalty is too easy circumvented by movement speed bonuses such as swift jewelry trait, celerity CP node and movement speed bonuses such as major/minor expedition. Especially in an organized group setting. With 3 x swift, celerity and major expedition you´ll casually sit at 61 % movement speed increase. You could add another 15 % (usually through charging maneuver, should the group in question use this morph) which would put an entire group at 76 % movement speed (the cap is 100%, or 200% if you assume 100% base movement speed). So having an entire group sitting close to movement speed cap without being able to be slowed or rooted is in my opinion way too strong, essentially there is no counterplay to slow down such a group/comp with available tools in game, and for the group using this mythic there are very very few downsides (and this goes for anything from 4-12 man groups).

I´ve played in multiple groups ranging from the sizes of 3-8 players, and the difference not running snow threaders in some of these groups is astronomical to the point where certain groups can´t play without it. I personally believe that his mythic needs a rework where there can be a window where you can be rooted/slowed, or limit how much extra movement speed you can achieve while using this mythic.

On the other hand, being permanently rooted/slowed while PvP:ing isn´t a fun experience. Anyone playing around with skills like bombard knows how strong and infuriating that skill can be. My suggestion if a snow threaders rework were to happen, is to simultaneously change the duration of snare/root immunity to match the regulard CC/Stun immunity (which is 6-7 seconds iirc). That way you do get some counterplay towards high mobile targets, without the receiving end feeling like they can´t move around without getting stuck every 2-3 seconds.

I also don´t think there should be group wide buffs/skills that gives an entire group root/snare immunity (like or rapid maneuver). Snare/root immunity should be something each individual player has to take care of themselves.

Well now hold on here. There's a difference between group buff issues and like 'the machine' pooling all those effects and lazy people just strolling around slamming their staffs on the ground. That's something else. Snow Treaders is in my opinion really misunderstood. Perhaps a ball group uses it, I dunno, but I can tell you what I have learned. Not using Snow Treaders makes PvP like just not worth playing. And hardly anyone uses them.

In fact, I was PvPing on a certain faction over the past week and did not see even (1) other person using these other than me. I was the only one. And if I was to guess I'd say over the last 6 months to a year I've rarely seen this mythic used in Cyrodil although I do see it used more often in other things like IC and BGs.

The way PvP currently is, frequently you eat multiple CCs, so its like the CC's stack, so things like Slippery are a bad idea in Cyrodiil PvP, not so bad in Imperial City PvP where you're more likely to go 1v1 or 1v2. Snow Treaders are really helpful because I don't even want to PvP without them. You are not immune to CC, so you still have to watch that. It just cuts thru alot of the wasteful snares and roots (the gotchas) that makes PvP absolutely miserable and unfun. So I'm not sure where this is coming from but doing anything with Snow Treaders will guarantee more people exit PvP because otherwise in many keep sieges I can't take 5 to 10 steps without getting *almost constantly* CC'd and killed. Its awful. And I refuse to keep playing ESO if a few people have a problem with a mythic they don't really understand, especially when this mythic is your friend in PvP, group or not, aside from Death Dealer's perhaps.

I encourage ZOS to understand that if Ball Groups and Emperor Sorcs/NBs are going to be allowed to have their fun, wipe entire factions on a server and for the most part never die, then PvP solo's like me and casuals and others need something to give us a chance. Or just do away with PvP because the way things are its VERY one-sided out there and people posting complaints trying to constantly strip away any power we might have, is not helping it's just making PvP more and more one sided. Another things, Snow Treaders is something you have to build for because it already brings a stiff penalty to the table in that you cannot sprint... Let that sink in. This is why most people don't use this mythic, they use Death Dealer's instead. It's something you got to build for and penalizes heavily. You guys complain about things like this, while other things like Rush of Agony is running wild thru PvP destroying everyone in its path and no ST does not protect you from RoA even.