not nerf. kill healers.

all healing, shields and buffing only work for oneself, including set effects.

I think ZOS really should bite the bullet and start separating healing out from damage, having them both draw from weapon/spell damage and max resource is not great. They still should to a certain extent, but it should be tilted one way or the other - max resource contributes more to healing and only a little to damage, and vice versa.

They could also potentially tweak the Evasion buffs - 20% and 10% is absolutely massive. Reduce them and leave it, reduce them and add a side benefit, etc. This would actually be a change that'd nerf ball groups without also impacting soloers/non-balls, as solo players or uncoordinated groups aren't really likely to have these buffs covered very well. It'd also make ball groups more susceptible to bombers.

Additionally, there are a *ton* of HoTs that are extremely easy to spread around, but not nearly as many DoTs with he same easy of applicability and strength. There are a chunk of skills across all classes with morphs that could be changed to a sticky DoT without impacting much, as the other morph would still be the ground-target effect.

Uh. And nerf vigor. Yes, again. Even the single/selfish morph, it's wild how powerful this HoT is compared to every other option. I actually like the hybridization efforts and I think it's overall worth it, but I think it's a huge, obvious sign that this thing is run by p much everyone these days. Even solo magicka builds.

Maybe a siege weapon that purges HoTs and shields? I think it's actually really cool that they added dispel to scribing. A bit unfortunate it only seems applicable to casted skills, which leaves the user very vulnerable, but I think there's room for some extra counterplay and build options here.

More long ranged debuff skills. Necro is a good example - it doesn't seem to really have any actual range on what should be a core class advantage - being able to vomit out debuffs. I really like stuff like bombard and the psijic AoE stun + heal absorb, as they're longer range skills (the second one with a cast time) that you can use to try and drain the resources of a ball group. Having more options to dump debuffs from afar could also help strain ballgroup resources.

The last one would be a large undertaking so I doubt it'll happen but one can dream - reduce base character stat values while increasing the gain from armor, attribute points, etc. Refinangle how and where players get their stats, cause currently it feels like we've been powercrept up the wazoo.

I'm not really fond of other solutions like arbitrary limits on what can and can't stack, although it's a valid solution. If I press a button, generally speaking I should expect to get the benefit of that button regardless of how many other people are pressing it. I think the issue here is that certain buttons, when stacked, just completely outclass other buttons e.g. the availability and stack-ability of group-wide HoTs vs DoTs.

Don't ask me implement these...but

Have an option to form a Defense Brigade (group) where defenders can stack their damage just like a ball group stacks their healz.

Also another skill the support line - Trap door, or Punji Trap, where it causes a percentage of members to be trapped so it divides the ball group. While some are slowed, the others are not and the group will divide.

Ball streak - fired at a single ball group player, has a chance to teleport them away from their group or outside the keep - this way breaking them off from the ball group.

Sniper - allow several members to form a sniper team where there damage is amalgamated by a group of players (let's say 4) - their weapons all target one member of the ball group if they have a clear shot, or slows them down, drains, prevents healing at all. This way the ball group can be picked apart little by little unless they knock of the keep quickly.

Heal Steal - cast on a ball group member, enemy healz now heal the defenders or rez dead defenders in the keep automatically. While it doesn't cut down the ball group, the defenders stay strong and around to fight.

Exponential Detonation - damage multiplies by the number of people in close proximity, the more people in the group, the bigger the bang

Just my Thotz,

Z

Amottica wrote: »

An organized group with a good commander and all on comms are stronger per person in the group than the group that some call ball groups. In such a group, the commander will have specific skills, and even ultimatels, he will tell players to slot, and those players will do as they are told.

A bunch of pugs running together or a disorganized group, especially not on comms, will not perform anywhere near as well and that should be expected.

The best solution is a good plan.

This may have been the case 5 years ago in Cyrodiil, but in the last 1-2 years, no, this is not a solution. You clearly have not spent any time at all in Cyrodiil in the last year plus.

JustLovely wrote: »

Limit heal and shield stacking to only one instance of each heal or shield. Done.

There is nothing the players can do given the current ball group meta with RoA and so much heal and shield stacking. Only ZOS can fix this. And they can't say they haven't seen the overwhelming feedback that this is what the vast majority of the PvP player base wants to see happen. (nobody asked for template only PvP)

As this poster points out, the only solution at this point is for ZOS to fix the massive imbalance they've created. It can't be fixed with coms or coordination. That's how out of balance things are these last couple years.

fred4 wrote: »

Knock their healer or leader off the keep wall with a knockback skill. The rest will follow.

No dice. They're all running immovable either the skill or getting it from pots.

You just log out. Zenimax clearly has no intention of addressing them, so it's probably what they want for cyrodiil.

Since ball group is one way to play as a guild in pvp, it's hard to nerf it. I mean, it's a mmorpg, and many people like it.
The problem is that for x% of people who like it, y% of the remaining players are at an extreme disadvantage.

In a way I created this thread to try to help Zenimax find a balanced solution, maybe some really good ideas will come out of it

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

First you need to understand why there are ballgroups to begin with. In my alliance, where you are routinely outnumbered by at least a bar every night (and where reds and yellows refuse to actually engage in serious combat against the other), Ball grouping is really the only way to combat overwhelming numbers. If it were not for ball groups, 30 man + groups would rule Cyrodil all day long. They outnumber you, they can outseige you. And without ballgroups, the ONLY thing that would dictate outcomes is who has the numbers advantage. Is that really what players want? If it is and they get their way, people will just log on, look at the population bar to see if its favorable, and either switch to the color that has the most players, or they won't play at all.

So understand this: ballgroups aren't a "problem." They're a response to a problem, which is zerging. And I see no issue with it. Its basically highly coordinated PVP very similar to high end PVE. And just like in PVE, there are low tier players, mid tier players, and high tier players - and you need to be a high tier player in addition to build for maximum group synergy in order to actually be a serious threat as a ballgroup.

So no, I don't believe that any nerfs are necessary here. And having played in one, I know exactly how to counter them, but I don't want to share "TOP TEN THINGS THAT IRK BALLGROUP PLAYERS" because then I'll see that a lot more on the battlefield, which I don't really want to do.

I know the perception is that ballgroups have no counter, but that is simply not true. If you watch big ballgroup fights and you start taking notice of what factors cause one group to fail vs the other, or if you see huge battles in which ballgroups are participants, you can see what things will bog down the group, you can figure it out. It's actually really not that difficult. But it requires players to be more than thoughtless potatoes charging into a situation that they have no plan of attack and no coordination with their other teammates who are present on the battlefield.

On Blackreach PC EU where I play EP is also outnumbered all the time and the other factions often doubleteam us rather than fighting each other but the ballgroups rarely help EP kill ad/dc PvDoor zergs and much more often join ad/dc PvDooring us.
When they come EP they usually farm in some enemy trikeep rather than defend an EP keep and wonder why nobody comes(the PvDoor zerg keeps PvDooring) and when they kill the Zerg and it does not immediately return they get bored and leave to never return rather than wait/go_IC a few minutes and the moment they are gone the zerg continues PvDooring. AD/dc ballgroups for some reason have no issue with PvDooring a dead alliance.

30+ man zergs rule Cyrodiil despite ballgroups and ballgroups also play without a dominant zerg to fight.
Only because they have the power to counter big zergs doesnt mean they use it to counter big zergs.
Ballgroups are even more supressive if the prey is not a huge zergs as huge zergs are also the only that can kill a ballgroup other than other organized groups.
Often ballgroups create the zerg they fight themselfe by tanking and farming the defenders and keeping the keep ua until the whole faction arrives with enaugh players to zerg down also a ballgroup because smaller numbers of randoms cant kill a ballgroup.

2 problematic groups fighting each other can stop beeing a problem for others but become a problem again as soon as they fight them.
Ballgroup do not defend honorable players against zergs but zerg them. Probably more solo players are zerged down by ballgroups and smallscales „defending them“ than by actual zergs.
Most of ballgroups tools work only in a group.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An organized group with a good commander and all on comms are stronger per person in the group than the group that some call ball groups. In such a group, the commander will have specific skills, and even ultimatels, he will tell players to slot, and those players will do as they are told.

A bunch of pugs running together or a disorganized group, especially not on comms, will not perform anywhere near as well and that should be expected.

The best solution is a good plan.

This may have been the case 5 years ago in Cyrodiil, but in the last 1-2 years, no, this is not a solution. You clearly have not spent any time at all in Cyrodiil in the last year plus.

I have not been avoiding Cyrodiil except during the holidays when my work takes up an extraordinary amount of time. So, that is, that is not the case at all. :

Revert the pointless nerf to Azureblight which was a good counter to ball groups and no one else so they brigaded the forums to get it nerfed.

Become one with the ball group.

I agree with @Major_Toughness. Azure was the counter to ball groups, but since enough people complained, they nerfed it. And predictably, ball groups are still an issue. Or keep Azure as is, but create more sets that expand damage based on players in the area

Stx wrote: »

Form a better ball group.

Every MMO ever made that has large scale PvP has this “issue” which isn’t actually an issue it’s just basic design. The more organized team wins the battle and a bunch of randoms will never beat them unless they have a crazy numbers advantage.

Ball groups in this game aren’t doing anything malicious or scandalous. They are just working together as a team utilizing the best strategy of skills and gear available. This is what large groups do in any MMO.

Anything you try to nerf, like making it so HoTs don’t stack, won’t kill ball groups. They will adapt and still wipe the floor with you. You can’t nerf ball groups.

Advocating for clearly overpowered item sets or skills so that a single player can instantly kill groups of organized players has always been and always will be hilarious and horrible potential game design.

Well, the funny part about azureblight (I assume you refer to that in this case) is that in order for it to be effective vs larger stacks of players/ballgroups you needed 4-5 players to run it in an organized way and specifically build around it. So people did exactly what you talk about: Form their own groups to combat these ballgroups. Didn´t take long before some very vocal players on the forums spread some propaganda about the set.....

So while people from time to time do come up with counters to certain mechanics and playstyles, people with strong agendas tend to go lengths to remove that counterplay.

Stx wrote: »

Anything you try to nerf, like making it so HoTs don’t stack, won’t kill ball groups. They will adapt and still wipe the floor with you. You can’t nerf ball groups.

This is the whole difficulty of solving this problem.

But already, if Zenimax could officially recognize that ballgroups are a problem that needs to be solved, we would be taking a step forward. I have not seen anything like that for the moment.