best way to combat Ballgroups in Cyrodiil ?

Xarc

Simple thread/poll to get YOUR opinion about this question :

What do you think is the best way to combat BallGroups in Cyrodiil ?

JustLovely

Limit heal and shield stacking to only one instance of each heal or shield. Done.

There is nothing the players can do given the current ball group meta with RoA and so much heal and shield stacking. Only ZOS can fix this. And they can't say they haven't seen the overwhelming feedback that this is what the vast majority of the PvP player base wants to see happen. (nobody asked for template only PvP)

moo_2021

not nerf. kill healers.

all healing, shields and buffing only work for oneself, including set effects.

OldStygian

Xarc wrote: »

Simple thread/poll to get YOUR opinion about this question :

What do you think is the best way to combat BallGroups in Cyrodiil ?

Don't play.

Tonturri

I think ZOS really should bite the bullet and start separating healing out from damage, having them both draw from weapon/spell damage and max resource is not great. They still should to a certain extent, but it should be tilted one way or the other - max resource contributes more to healing and only a little to damage, and vice versa.

They could also potentially tweak the Evasion buffs - 20% and 10% is absolutely massive. Reduce them and leave it, reduce them and add a side benefit, etc. This would actually be a change that'd nerf ball groups without also impacting soloers/non-balls, as solo players or uncoordinated groups aren't really likely to have these buffs covered very well. It'd also make ball groups more susceptible to bombers.

Additionally, there are a *ton* of HoTs that are extremely easy to spread around, but not nearly as many DoTs with he same easy of applicability and strength. There are a chunk of skills across all classes with morphs that could be changed to a sticky DoT without impacting much, as the other morph would still be the ground-target effect.

Uh. And nerf vigor. Yes, again. Even the single/selfish morph, it's wild how powerful this HoT is compared to every other option. I actually like the hybridization efforts and I think it's overall worth it, but I think it's a huge, obvious sign that this thing is run by p much everyone these days. Even solo magicka builds.

Maybe a siege weapon that purges HoTs and shields? I think it's actually really cool that they added dispel to scribing. A bit unfortunate it only seems applicable to casted skills, which leaves the user very vulnerable, but I think there's room for some extra counterplay and build options here.

More long ranged debuff skills. Necro is a good example - it doesn't seem to really have any actual range on what should be a core class advantage - being able to vomit out debuffs. I really like stuff like bombard and the psijic AoE stun + heal absorb, as they're longer range skills (the second one with a cast time) that you can use to try and drain the resources of a ball group. Having more options to dump debuffs from afar could also help strain ballgroup resources.

The last one would be a large undertaking so I doubt it'll happen but one can dream - reduce base character stat values while increasing the gain from armor, attribute points, etc. Refinangle how and where players get their stats, cause currently it feels like we've been powercrept up the wazoo.

I'm not really fond of other solutions like arbitrary limits on what can and can't stack, although it's a valid solution. If I press a button, generally speaking I should expect to get the benefit of that button regardless of how many other people are pressing it. I think the issue here is that certain buttons, when stacked, just completely outclass other buttons e.g. the availability and stack-ability of group-wide HoTs vs DoTs.

Freelancer_ESO

IMHO, the siege style solution would be to add a dirt cheap siege weapon that rapidly deploys and fires that deals scaling oblivion damage. The scaling would be based off of the number of targets combined with the number of buffs, shields and heals on the target as well as the number of times they had been hit with the siege weapon in the last x time.

The idea for the siege approach is that you'd be able to take out a ball group by outnumbering them and then spamming them down with siege.

IMHO, the combat solution would be far more messy.

Right now, weapon/spell damage is actually better at healing than magicka/stamina. I'd suggest increasing the healing from the latter and reducing the healing from the former. You want the amount of healing that a healer can do to remain somewhat close to the current values but, you don't want a DPS player to be doing monster heals like they can right now.

I'd suggest having the shielding and healing provided from abilities that scale on health be adjusted so that the cost also reflects the level of health. This will allow tank slanted builds to still have powerful shields and heals but, it will put them in the position where they will run dry fast if they use them much and it will make health based heals more cost effective for builds with low health values.

IMHO, the AOE shielding and AOE healing abilities probably need to get a balance pass with many of them getting a reduction (Some such as Obsidian Shield are far weaker and might need a little buff rather than a nerf). I was in a dungeon run a few weeks back as a healer and I had next to nothing to do the entire run because the tank was using Ulfsild's Contingency to shield the group.

PvP sets and abilities might also benefit from some potential experiments/adjustments to ensure they aren't excessively favoring organized players. For example, I think it might be good to test if the bomb type abilities/sets would feel better if the damage scaled up and down a bit with health. Currently, squishy players are great at getting the people around them killed while more durable groups don't necessarily pop even when you finally get someone down.

Zama666

Don't ask me implement these...but

Have an option to form a Defense Brigade (group) where defenders can stack their damage just like a ball group stacks their healz.

Also another skill the support line - Trap door, or Punji Trap, where it causes a percentage of members to be trapped so it divides the ball group. While some are slowed, the others are not and the group will divide.

Ball streak - fired at a single ball group player, has a chance to teleport them away from their group or outside the keep - this way breaking them off from the ball group.

Sniper - allow several members to form a sniper team where there damage is amalgamated by a group of players (let's say 4) - their weapons all target one member of the ball group if they have a clear shot, or slows them down, drains, prevents healing at all. This way the ball group can be picked apart little by little unless they knock of the keep quickly.

Heal Steal - cast on a ball group member, enemy healz now heal the defenders or rez dead defenders in the keep automatically. While it doesn't cut down the ball group, the defenders stay strong and around to fight.

Exponential Detonation - damage multiplies by the number of people in close proximity, the more people in the group, the bigger the bang

Just my Thotz,

Z

Amottica

An organized group with a good commander and all on comms are stronger per person in the group than the group that some call ball groups. In such a group, the commander will have specific skills, and even ultimatels, he will tell players to slot, and those players will do as they are told.

A bunch of pugs running together or a disorganized group, especially not on comms, will not perform anywhere near as well and that should be expected.

The best solution is a good plan.

AngryPenguin

Amottica wrote: »

An organized group with a good commander and all on comms are stronger per person in the group than the group that some call ball groups. In such a group, the commander will have specific skills, and even ultimatels, he will tell players to slot, and those players will do as they are told.

A bunch of pugs running together or a disorganized group, especially not on comms, will not perform anywhere near as well and that should be expected.

The best solution is a good plan.

This may have been the case 5 years ago in Cyrodiil, but in the last 1-2 years, no, this is not a solution. You clearly have not spent any time at all in Cyrodiil in the last year plus.

JustLovely wrote: »

Limit heal and shield stacking to only one instance of each heal or shield. Done.

There is nothing the players can do given the current ball group meta with RoA and so much heal and shield stacking. Only ZOS can fix this. And they can't say they haven't seen the overwhelming feedback that this is what the vast majority of the PvP player base wants to see happen. (nobody asked for template only PvP)

As this poster points out, the only solution at this point is for ZOS to fix the massive imbalance they've created. It can't be fixed with coms or coordination. That's how out of balance things are these last couple years.

fred4

Knock their healer or leader off the keep wall with a knockback skill. The rest will follow.

AngryPenguin

fred4 wrote: »

Knock their healer or leader off the keep wall with a knockback skill. The rest will follow.

No dice. They're all running immovable either the skill or getting it from pots.

AngryPenguin

JustLovely wrote: »

Limit heal and shield stacking to only one instance of each heal or shield. Done.

There is nothing the players can do given the current ball group meta with RoA and so much heal and shield stacking. Only ZOS can fix this. And they can't say they haven't seen the overwhelming feedback that this is what the vast majority of the PvP player base wants to see happen. (nobody asked for template only PvP)

The problem is ZOS is focusing on their new template only PvP game mode rather than giving the game mode they already have the attention it deserves. I sure hope they're not ignoring the current game mode because their plan is to mandate template only cyrodiil in the future at some point.

fred4

As to the other suggestions here, don't be silly. Don't you know how it will go? ZOS will drastically reshape PvP in their upcoming test. This IMO actually has good chance of increasing performance significantly and/or raising the population cap in Cyro. Most people point to the fact that this is only a test. I don't believe that. If ZOS get half-decent numbers during the test, my bet is they will release it to live, with few changes, sooner rather than later. The amount of changes that a typical PTS cycle brings, e.g. near zero. Best we can hope for is that this is only one campaign.

There will be a burst of activity, only for people to run into severe and entirely new balance issues while, in the longer run, they'll realise how much of "not an RPG anymore" PvP has become. Build-crafting will be gone. Yes, there will be class variety, but everything else that you've worked for will become irrelevant. Some hard core players and some noobs will remain. You might argue that's where we are now, but I don't really see that changing, if you simplify PvP this much. Ravenwatch was dull. I could be wrong, of course.

Kartalin

AngryPenguin wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Knock their healer or leader off the keep wall with a knockback skill. The rest will follow.

No dice. They're all running immovable either the skill or getting it from pots.

No ball groups are running the Immovable skill, fast coordinated movement is essential. Immov pots yes, but those have significant downtime and they’re typically used right before the group lines up a big strike. If you catch them in a retreat you might be able to chain or knock back one but in these scenarios they keep moving for precisely that reason.

Calastir

BXR_Lonestar

First you need to understand why there are ballgroups to begin with. In my alliance, where you are routinely outnumbered by at least a bar every night (and where reds and yellows refuse to actually engage in serious combat against the other), Ball grouping is really the only way to combat overwhelming numbers. If it were not for ball groups, 30 man + groups would rule Cyrodil all day long. They outnumber you, they can outseige you. And without ballgroups, the ONLY thing that would dictate outcomes is who has the numbers advantage. Is that really what players want? If it is and they get their way, people will just log on, look at the population bar to see if its favorable, and either switch to the color that has the most players, or they won't play at all.

So understand this: ballgroups aren't a "problem." They're a response to a problem, which is zerging. And I see no issue with it. Its basically highly coordinated PVP very similar to high end PVE. And just like in PVE, there are low tier players, mid tier players, and high tier players - and you need to be a high tier player in addition to build for maximum group synergy in order to actually be a serious threat as a ballgroup.

So no, I don't believe that any nerfs are necessary here. And having played in one, I know exactly how to counter them, but I don't want to share "TOP TEN THINGS THAT IRK BALLGROUP PLAYERS" because then I'll see that a lot more on the battlefield, which I don't really want to do.

I know the perception is that ballgroups have no counter, but that is simply not true. If you watch big ballgroup fights and you start taking notice of what factors cause one group to fail vs the other, or if you see huge battles in which ballgroups are participants, you can see what things will bog down the group, you can figure it out. It's actually really not that difficult. But it requires players to be more than thoughtless potatoes charging into a situation that they have no plan of attack and no coordination with their other teammates who are present on the battlefield.

React

You just log out. Zenimax clearly has no intention of addressing them, so it's probably what they want for cyrodiil.

Iriidius

Tonturri wrote: »

I think ZOS really should bite the bullet and start separating healing out from damage, having them both draw from weapon/spell damage and max resource is not great. They still should to a certain extent, but it should be tilted one way or the other - max resource contributes more to healing and only a little to damage, and vice versa.

They could also potentially tweak the Evasion buffs - 20% and 10% is absolutely massive. Reduce them and leave it, reduce them and add a side benefit, etc. This would actually be a change that'd nerf ball groups without also impacting soloers/non-balls, as solo players or uncoordinated groups aren't really likely to have these buffs covered very well. It'd also make ball groups more susceptible to bombers.

Additionally, there are a *ton* of HoTs that are extremely easy to spread around, but not nearly as many DoTs with he same easy of applicability and strength. There are a chunk of skills across look all classes with morphs that could be changed to a sticky DoT without impacting much, as the other morph would still be the ground-target effect.

Seperating the scaling of healing from dmg as they already mostly seperated healers from dmg dealers and would have to invest only in healing stats on healer and only in dmg stats on dmg dealer while solo players would have to invest in both because they have to both heal themselves and deal dmg because noone else is doing the other for them which would make ballgroups even stronger as they can stack one stat much higher than 2.

Tonturri wrote: »

Uh. And nerf vigor. Yes, again. Even the single/selfish morph, it's wild how powerful this HoT is compared to every other option. I actually like the hybridization efforts and I think it's overall worth it, but I think it's a huge, obvious sign that this thing is run by p much everyone these days. Even solo magicka builds.

Maybe a siege weapon that purges HoTs and shields? I think it's actually really cool that they added dispel to scribing. A bit unfortunate it only seems applicable to casted skills, which leaves the user very vulnerable, but I think there's room for some extra counterplay and build options here.

That you want to esplicitely nerf also resolving vigor which heals only the caster shows that the intention of your suggestions is not to nerf only ballgroups.
Why should solo magicka builds not use solo morph of vigor? They are solo after all and since Hybridization(u33) using stam skills as magicka and vice versa is not less effektive anymore. Actually before hot nerfs in update 35 radiating regen was so strong that even solo stam(and mag) players used it despite beeing a group multitarget heal requiring healing staff. That was much more op than vigor and needed nerf althought rapid regen nerf was maybe a bit too strong to keep it as alternative to vigor.

Tonturri wrote: »

More long ranged debuff skills. Necro is a good example - it doesn't seem to really have any actual range on what should be a core class advantage - being able to vomit out debuffs. I really like stuff like bombard and the psijic AoE stun + heal absorb, as they're longer range skills (the second one with a cast time) that you can use to try and drain the resources of a ball group. Having more options to dump debuffs from afar could also help strain ballgroup resources.

The last one would be a large undertaking so I doubt it'll happen but one can dream - reduce base character stat values while increasing the gain from armor, attribute points, etc. Refinangle how and where players get their stats, cause currently it feels like we've been powercrept up the wazoo.

I'm not really fond of other solutions like arbitrary limits on what can and can't stack, although it's a valid solution. If I press a button, generally speaking I should expect to get the benefit of that button regardless of how many other people are pressing it. I think the issue here is that certain buttons, when stacked, just completely outclass other buttons e.g. the availability and stack-ability of group-wide HoTs vs DoTs.

Reducing base character stats would also buff ballgroups as they get the same stats as everyone else from it which relatively to their total stats with all buffs from group are much lower than from solo players.

You also do not want to remove the stacking of HoTs which is one of if not the main reasons why ballgroups are so difficult to kill.

Your suggestion would buff spread out zerglings healers and ranged dds using radiating regen and never playing alone the most.

Xarc

Since ball group is one way to play as a guild in pvp, it's hard to nerf it. I mean, it's a mmorpg, and many people like it.
The problem is that for x% of people who like it, y% of the remaining players are at an extreme disadvantage.

In a way I created this thread to try to help Zenimax find a balanced solution, maybe some really good ideas will come out of it

Joy_Division

For players? Nothing short of overwhelming force to push through the never should have been implemented AOE shield spam, dozen HoTs, perma speed cap, perma major + minor evasion, etc.

For Zos? Remove the broken mechanics above, make Rush of Agony work only against monsters, and make Cyrodiil fun so that there will be a healthy population to provide alternatives and counters to organized full groups

Iriidius

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

First you need to understand why there are ballgroups to begin with. In my alliance, where you are routinely outnumbered by at least a bar every night (and where reds and yellows refuse to actually engage in serious combat against the other), Ball grouping is really the only way to combat overwhelming numbers. If it were not for ball groups, 30 man + groups would rule Cyrodil all day long. They outnumber you, they can outseige you. And without ballgroups, the ONLY thing that would dictate outcomes is who has the numbers advantage. Is that really what players want? If it is and they get their way, people will just log on, look at the population bar to see if its favorable, and either switch to the color that has the most players, or they won't play at all.

So understand this: ballgroups aren't a "problem." They're a response to a problem, which is zerging. And I see no issue with it. Its basically highly coordinated PVP very similar to high end PVE. And just like in PVE, there are low tier players, mid tier players, and high tier players - and you need to be a high tier player in addition to build for maximum group synergy in order to actually be a serious threat as a ballgroup.

So no, I don't believe that any nerfs are necessary here. And having played in one, I know exactly how to counter them, but I don't want to share "TOP TEN THINGS THAT IRK BALLGROUP PLAYERS" because then I'll see that a lot more on the battlefield, which I don't really want to do.

I know the perception is that ballgroups have no counter, but that is simply not true. If you watch big ballgroup fights and you start taking notice of what factors cause one group to fail vs the other, or if you see huge battles in which ballgroups are participants, you can see what things will bog down the group, you can figure it out. It's actually really not that difficult. But it requires players to be more than thoughtless potatoes charging into a situation that they have no plan of attack and no coordination with their other teammates who are present on the battlefield.

On Blackreach PC EU where I play EP is also outnumbered all the time and the other factions often doubleteam us rather than fighting each other but the ballgroups rarely help EP kill ad/dc PvDoor zergs and much more often join ad/dc PvDooring us.
When they come EP they usually farm in some enemy trikeep rather than defend an EP keep and wonder why nobody comes(the PvDoor zerg keeps PvDooring) and when they kill the Zerg and it does not immediately return they get bored and leave to never return rather than wait/go_IC a few minutes and the moment they are gone the zerg continues PvDooring. AD/dc ballgroups for some reason have no issue with PvDooring a dead alliance.

30+ man zergs rule Cyrodiil despite ballgroups and ballgroups also play without a dominant zerg to fight.
Only because they have the power to counter big zergs doesnt mean they use it to counter big zergs.
Ballgroups are even more supressive if the prey is not a huge zergs as huge zergs are also the only that can kill a ballgroup other than other organized groups.
Often ballgroups create the zerg they fight themselfe by tanking and farming the defenders and keeping the keep ua until the whole faction arrives with enaugh players to zerg down also a ballgroup because smaller numbers of randoms cant kill a ballgroup.

2 problematic groups fighting each other can stop beeing a problem for others but become a problem again as soon as they fight them.
Ballgroup do not defend honorable players against zergs but zerg them. Probably more solo players are zerged down by ballgroups and smallscales „defending them“ than by actual zergs.
Most of ballgroups tools work only in a group.

The_Meathead

Limit heals and shields to one per type on each player, no matter how many are cast.

Stacked heals and shields aren't the only reason Ball Groups are so powerful, but they're a huge part of it. The good ones will still shine without them because of coordination, leadership, and adept theorycraft, but it would at least hamstring the middling ones and make the good ones work for it.

I'd hazard the guess it would do wonders for server performance too, as the number of calculations in a small area are absolutely absurd when a Ball Group or heaven forbid multiple Ball Groups are present.

Taking a hard look at Snowtreaders and Rush of Agony is past due, too.

Amottica

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An organized group with a good commander and all on comms are stronger per person in the group than the group that some call ball groups. In such a group, the commander will have specific skills, and even ultimatels, he will tell players to slot, and those players will do as they are told.

A bunch of pugs running together or a disorganized group, especially not on comms, will not perform anywhere near as well and that should be expected.

The best solution is a good plan.

This may have been the case 5 years ago in Cyrodiil, but in the last 1-2 years, no, this is not a solution. You clearly have not spent any time at all in Cyrodiil in the last year plus.

I have not been avoiding Cyrodiil except during the holidays when my work takes up an extraordinary amount of time. So, that is, that is not the case at all. :

Tonturri

Joy_Division wrote: »

For players? Nothing short of overwhelming force to push through the never should have been implemented AOE shield spam, dozen HoTs, perma speed cap, perma major + minor evasion, etc.

For Zos? Remove the broken mechanics above, make Rush of Agony work only against monsters, and make Cyrodiil fun so that there will be a healthy population to provide alternatives and counters to organized full groups

I must admit, while I'm someone who just really enjoys absorb shield as a mechanic for a variety of roleplay and thematic reasons, I was extremely surprised that ZOS decided to give everyone easy access to strong absorbs in scribing. Also kinda makes the multi-target absorb skill arcanists have so much less special Heck it even further trivializes a lot of PvE stuff, too, since 40k+ HP tanks can now vomit out massive shields.

Major_Toughness

Revert the pointless nerf to Azureblight which was a good counter to ball groups and no one else so they brigaded the forums to get it nerfed.

Sluggy

There's two things that make a ball group strong. Coordination and sets. Coordination is a skill that needs to be learned and absolutely can make a difference. However, the stacking effect of group-based sets has always been an issue and is absolutely out of hand at this point and has two knock-on effects. 1) It allows leaders and individuals to make gross mistakes that cannot be capitalized on by their opponents and 2) it trivializes many roles and skills needed to work effectively as a team.

El_Borracho

Become one with the ball group.

I agree with @Major_Toughness. Azure was the counter to ball groups, but since enough people complained, they nerfed it. And predictably, ball groups are still an issue. Or keep Azure as is, but create more sets that expand damage based on players in the area

Stx

Form a better ball group.

Every MMO ever made that has large scale PvP has this “issue” which isn’t actually an issue it’s just basic design. The more organized team wins the battle and a bunch of randoms will never beat them unless they have a crazy numbers advantage.

Ball groups in this game aren’t doing anything malicious or scandalous. They are just working together as a team utilizing the best strategy of skills and gear available. This is what large groups do in any MMO.

Anything you try to nerf, like making it so HoTs don’t stack, won’t kill ball groups. They will adapt and still wipe the floor with you. You can’t nerf ball groups.

Advocating for clearly overpowered item sets or skills so that a single player can instantly kill groups of organized players has always been and always will be hilarious and horrible potential game design.

Major_Mangle

Stx wrote: »

Form a better ball group.

Every MMO ever made that has large scale PvP has this “issue” which isn’t actually an issue it’s just basic design. The more organized team wins the battle and a bunch of randoms will never beat them unless they have a crazy numbers advantage.

Ball groups in this game aren’t doing anything malicious or scandalous. They are just working together as a team utilizing the best strategy of skills and gear available. This is what large groups do in any MMO.

Anything you try to nerf, like making it so HoTs don’t stack, won’t kill ball groups. They will adapt and still wipe the floor with you. You can’t nerf ball groups.

Advocating for clearly overpowered item sets or skills so that a single player can instantly kill groups of organized players has always been and always will be hilarious and horrible potential game design.

Well, the funny part about azureblight (I assume you refer to that in this case) is that in order for it to be effective vs larger stacks of players/ballgroups you needed 4-5 players to run it in an organized way and specifically build around it. So people did exactly what you talk about: Form their own groups to combat these ballgroups. Didn´t take long before some very vocal players on the forums spread some propaganda about the set.....

So while people from time to time do come up with counters to certain mechanics and playstyles, people with strong agendas tend to go lengths to remove that counterplay.

Avran_Sylt

Long-range High-Cost single-target pull/displacement. Probably something like an ultimate. More than 50m. Pick the ball apart.

Xarc

Stx wrote: »

Anything you try to nerf, like making it so HoTs don’t stack, won’t kill ball groups. They will adapt and still wipe the floor with you. You can’t nerf ball groups.

This is the whole difficulty of solving this problem.

But already, if Zenimax could officially recognize that ballgroups are a problem that needs to be solved, we would be taking a step forward. I have not seen anything like that for the moment.