Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

Tan9oSuccka · February 12

[. [/quote]
I’m curious, then, how other games in the same genre have thrived while offering such a shocking theft of…intellectual property? Is that it? Or…?[/quote]

Go play those thriving games?

Is that it? Or…?

katanagirl1 · February 12

I don’t understand the argument against going to sources outside of the game to PvP. You have to do that in PvE too.

spartaxoxo · February 12

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t understand the argument against going to sources outside of the game to PvP. You have to do that in PvE too.

Many players prefer to learn by playing. Some people simply learn better through hands-on learning and don't learn as well through reading or listening. In a video game, this may be done by playing. Seeing gear that has an effect, trying a shield the next time they notice it, and then if that don't work, try something else. This sort of thing.

katanagirl1 · February 13

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t understand the argument against going to sources outside of the game to PvP. You have to do that in PvE too.

Many players prefer to learn by playing. Some people simply learn better through hands-on learning and don't learn as well through reading or listening. In a video game, this may be done by playing. Seeing gear that has an effect, trying a shield the next time they notice it, and then if that don't work, try something else. This sort of thing.

Sure, but there is a lot of stuff going on under the hood even in PvE that you can’t see. I have to look up stuff all the time. Every time a I make an alchemy potion for a master writ, I have to look up to make sure which of the combinations of ingredients I can use, because it typically has check marks before more than three ingredients. I could try every possible combination until I get the right one but that is a waste of ingredients.

Other things like for builds, which traits and weights of gear for PvE are recommended this update, which enchants to use. I’m not smart enough to figure that out or even remember it.

Look, I know new PvP players want to get in the game, but it’s even more difficult than PvE to find a setup that works because it’s not like a trial boss with a known amount of health and known mechanics. You will face enemies of different classes and different builds, many of them grouped and providing buffs to each member of the group. I guess the idea is that if more information is presented, that a solution will become obvious. I don’t think it will, and I oppose the idea to force players to show it.

I’m sure you would not be impressed with my gear, I have support skills like Siege Shield and Revealing Flare on my sorc, so it’s obvious I’ve not got anything to hide and am not one of the elite PvP players.

VoxAdActa · February 13

"Inspect" will help with learning PvP about as much as looking at a pro's Magic deck will help with learning how to play Magic. If you don't already know how the game works and how things like combos and draw advantage fit together, just seeing someone else's cards won't mean anything. Even just trying to copy the deck won't tell you how it's supposed to be played.

You know what will help you learn how the deck is supposed to be played? Outside research.

I'm still waiting to hear what competitive multiplayer games require 0 outside research (and no significant period of time failing while one learns the mechanics by trial and error) to reach the mid-to-top levels.

Theignson · February 13

Learning how to theory craft, then learning how to play certain builds, is one of the most fun parts of PvP.

Despite what's been said, you can figure out most builds from the Combat Metrics (CMX) recap (sorry console players).

For example, every single proc set will show up in CMX damage report. If you see on your combat log or recieved damage summary 2 proc sets, you know their build. Balorgh shows up.

Look at "debuffs recieved" can tell you about other sets.

Let's say you see a streak where suddenly every hit received is a crit for 8 seconds-- likely Mechanical acuity.

Look for new debuffs received. A couple months ago i noted "Binding contingency" from a warden who had a string of criticals. Turns out this uses the warden class script plus northern storm, and is devastating.

Let's say somebody destroys you and there are no proc sets. This means it is one of those "pure" players who use stats sets only -- although some of these could be called procs, like rallying cry.

There isn't really that much diversity in sets in PvP because some sets (Rallying cry, wretched vitality, Rush of agony) are so much better than others.

Its also interesting to figure out a build, try it for a while, then realize it just is not fitting your style or preferences. I've found that with gank blade builds and with ranged bow builds, just not for me.

aetherix8 · February 13

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Many players prefer to learn by playing. Some people simply learn better through hands-on learning and don't learn as well through reading or listening. In a video game, this may be done by playing. Seeing gear that has an effect, trying a shield the next time they notice it, and then if that don't work, try something else. This sort of thing.

Practice makes perfect they say, and learning the game by playing it is for some much more rewarding and satisfying than having all explained straight away. Don’t get me wrong, the game should do better at explaining core mechanics to new players, better tutorials are needed for both PvP and PvE.

But for some, as long as there’s smth left to learn the game is interesting; once there’s no whys left, it becomes boring. I would simply never inspect other players for that reason - fast learning shortens the time I will play any game. Being on the top isn’t fun for some, it’s getting there that is exciting.

As for inspecting my gear, I don’t care and I don’t think it’s invasive, but I do believe it will create much more toxicity, naming and shaming, kicking from groups and accusations of cheating. It might as well reduce interactions between players since no one will be asking anymore “hey, what build are u using and how to make it work?”.
And, if someone spent long hours figuring out their unique build, why others should be able to just copy it without effort and asking?

Sarannah · February 13

VoxAdActa wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There are tons of people who do not wish to look at outside resources. They want to play the game.

This is the strangest form of extreme roleplaying I have yet encountered. The knowledge is right there, a few mouse clicks away, just like they like it... but they refuse to seek it? Because... why?

They want it. It's available. It's free. It's freely offered. But they turn it down out of... what? Pique? Stubbornness?

My dear friend Mr. Horse, the water is right here, at your feet. Please, for the love of the Eight Divines, I beseech you to drink it.

And if they can't do that in a game, they'll go to one where they can.

Like what?

Even Hades 2 requires outside research to reach the top levels. Even Super Mario Brothers has hidden mechanics and tactics that require either outside research or repeated trial and error. Even checkers has a strategy wiki. Good luck finding any game that doesn't reward outside research with access to the upper tiers of success.

Wanted to respond to this, as I am one of those people who (mostly) makes his own builds without looking up another person's build and does quite well. Both in PvE and PvP. These builds are tailored to me specifically, as I do not barswap, animation cancel, light attack weave, or use potions.

Now I do look through all the item sets/skills/CP's available on the websites, to see what may fit my builds. But that is general information, not looking at other player builds.

Besides the privacy part I mentioned in my previous reply, I would not want players copying my builds. As these took quite a bit of work. And will probably not work for anyone else!

PS: But I am also one of those weirdo's who likes to play selfish tanks, so I may be an extreme outlier with these kinds of things.

Soraka · February 13

It is a feature in other games. It is not currently a feature of the game, which means if implemented, for some people, it would feel like the removal of a consent that is currently in place. I'm not against it if we were able to toggle on or off someone's ability to inspect me.
I am not wanting to read some replies in bad faith, but some things people are saying does sound a little bit like:

I know I can look up information online, look up sets in game, ask my friends, ask allies (even enemies often like to discuss builds), ask zone chat, ask guilds and some people will respond. However, someone may say no to me, I don't like that, and so I want the game to force them to show me anyway.

Yes, that's a very simplified and negative way to read into it. And I don't think that's what anyone is consciously thinking. It just does kinda sound that way with some posts. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

Also, I can agree that some mechanics are not explained well in the game. I still get confused about stat scaling etc and have to Google. Things like that need to be better clear in game and inspection of someone won't help.

VoxAdActa · February 13

Soraka wrote: »

I am not wanting to read some replies in bad faith, but some things people are saying does sound a little bit like:

I know I can look up information online, look up sets in game, ask my friends, ask allies (even enemies often like to discuss builds), ask zone chat, ask guilds and some people will respond. However, someone may say no to me, I don't like that, and so I want the game to force them to show me anyway.

That's how I'm reading a lot of this too. I'm getting the impression that some people only want this feature because they can't stand being told "no" at all. Even saying "No, I don't want this feature, here's why, and here's why it's unnecessary" has provoked a couple of people on this very thread to become deliberately antagonistic.

The idea that the game should have all of its mechanics, combos, tactics, and inner workings displayed in-game (How? A five-hour long tutorial? A series of seven-page-long loading screen tips?) is wild to me. No game on earth, complex or simple, does that. Spider Solitaire doesn't even do that. I don't believe that's what anyone actually wants. I can't. It would be unprecedented in the history of gaming in the world.

Elvenheart · February 13

Asdara wrote: »

Oh, and I can hear the people in the back screaming, "You can just ask them lol."

Well, let's be honest here, most PvP players don’t want to share their builds. They’ve spent hours perfecting their setups, testing what works best, and putting in the work to gain an edge. Asking them for that info? You're not likely to get a response, or if you do, it’s often vague or unhelpful. The reality is, many players keep their builds to themselves to maintain their competitive advantage.

While I can see that you feel strongly about this and you have put a lot of thought into your argument and responses, in my opinion I think the answer is really centered in this part of the original post.

If I were to put a lot of time, effort, and work into a build, trying to make it unique and testing and modifying it in the hopes of it giving me a competitive edge (I don’t; I normally watch a YouTube build video and I might tweak it a bit based on personal experience), I wouldn’t want to share it with someone so they could have the benefit of all of my hard work with little to no effort on their part. If I’m able to do the research and do the testing, so is everyone else.

Nothing is wrong in any type of competition with wanting to maintain a competitive advantage when you’ve put in the work to do so. If I was going to compete in a spelling bee and I put in a lot of work in preparing and researching past spelling bees to try and anticipate what words may be used in the one I’m going to compete in, I wouldn’t then turn around and give all that research to the competition. They should be doing their own prep and research. 🐝

Elvenheart · February 13

JaxontheUnfortunate wrote: »

Lol yeah as a DK main I will never stop using pyrebrand I love that set, and use it whenever possible.

<furtively steals build idea> 👀

Elvenheart · February 13

JinKC98 wrote: »

Already give me the creeps certain players can see what loots I was getting in dungeon and trial runs and like "can you give me that pls"

Me too. 🤨

Belegnole · February 13

Rofl, I'm against it. But, most seem oblivious that ZOS is already giving out your build to a for profit 3rd party website.

nejcn001 · February 14

Hm... interesting, i want the opposite feature.
To play anonymously.
Like random username when i enter BG, cyro, IC.

Sure they should be able to report.

But no whispering, adding as friends and being jelly when they get killed n-times so they create a zerg to hunt you.

I just want to kill in peace.

Four_Fingers · February 14

Inspection is not going to teach the main mechanics of when to block, parry or when or who to attack.
If they group up in a serious group, the crown is most likely going to suggest what sets to wear for group composition anyway.

BXR_Lonestar · February 14

How do you propose that you inspect your opponents? On the battlefield while the fight is going on? I don't think that is really realistic...

MidniteOwl1913 · February 15

No, hard no.

MidniteOwl1913 · February 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t understand the argument against going to sources outside of the game to PvP. You have to do that in PvE too.

Many players prefer to learn by playing. Some people simply learn better through hands-on learning and don't learn as well through reading or listening. In a video game, this may be done by playing. Seeing gear that has an effect, trying a shield the next time they notice it, and then if that don't work, try something else. This sort of thing.

FIne I have no problem an inspect mode involves consent. Something that is like trading. SOmeone hits an ask to inspect button, I say decline, the end.

LalMirchi · February 15

I still do not find a definitive advantage to this suggestion while the privacy concerns are many.

I do not care about how other games address this, we're here, in ESO.

Toggle would only involve more bullying and elistest behaviour, so no thank you, very respectfully.

VoxAdActa · February 15

I still do not find a definitive advantage

It doesn't appear that there is one. This whole idea feels like a solution in search a problem. Everything that "inspect" is claimed to do is already done better in a hundred different ways.

I can't tell if this roots from "Make ESO more like this other game" or what. I don't believe the claims that any significant number of people share the alleged, almost-religious aversion to YouTube or ESO build websites, and I struggle to understand the actual motives behind the vehement arguments in favor of "inspect" that we've seen in this thread.

TheKilamanjaro · February 16

I'm going to rephrase a comment that got taken down because someone has thin skin.

If the ability to check someone's gear is that important to you, perhaps you should evaluate your playstyle choices and confine yourself to pre-made groups of folks that share your ....."ideals".....because many don't want you or anyone else inspecting our gear.
Random groups are, by definition, random. It would be cool if they instituted a "dishonor' system. If you leave a group before the match is ended you cannot queue for "X amount of time" that gets progressively longer until you have completed "x days" without leaving a team hanging.

sans-culottes · February 16

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I still do not find a definitive advantage

It doesn't appear that there is one. This whole idea feels like a solution in search a problem. Everything that "inspect" is claimed to do is already done better in a hundred different ways.

I can't tell if this roots from "Make ESO more like this other game" or what. I don't believe the claims that any significant number of people share the alleged, almost-religious aversion to YouTube or ESO build websites, and I struggle to understand the actual motives behind the vehement arguments in favor of "inspect" that we've seen in this thread.

The root cause is, mostly, that it’d just be cool to be able to see this. Since i dislike PVP, I don’t have a horse in the PVP race. However, since I play in console and the solution to gatekeeping in raiding is even more intrusive, I genuinely don’t see this as an issue.

That other games have this is cited as evidence because they’re examples of how and why this has been one of the ”key” to the various artificial doors that gatekeeping persons will inevitably come up with.

Since this isn’t in game, it’s purely speculative. Having said that, other games with this have allowed various privacy, RP modes, etc. that limit or disable inspection by others.

To wit, my only interest in this is because I think it’s fun and neat. I have strong doubts that it’d lead anyone to new and exciting PVP insights. But I’ve also never experienced the seeming harassment others repeatedly cite as the primary reason—this and privacy often come up.

PS. @VoxAdActa mentioned their concerns over streamers in another thread. Those concerns are why many of us avoid watching such persons like the plague. That and the idea of watching someone else play a game I already play—especially when the culture of “content creators” is such that it enables hate speech, etc., due to platforms with exceedingly lax standards—is about as much fun to me as watching paint dry.