Please remove "with a X ability slotted" requirements for passives

moo_2021 · February 11

it won't work for one bar.

having passives from slotted skills is good for powerful ones such as Siphoning Strikes, but things like Hemorrhage is almost class identity.

VoxAdActa · February 11

moo_2021 wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Not sure why you're bringing up the healing class line of Arcanist. Aren't Runeblades supposed to be their spammable?

not in PvP.

I brought up the healing line because the only thing that does healing there is Runemend, which is unreliable in messy pvp fights, but the line also grants 10% shield boost despite of having no real shield ability (chakram is for group).

And having to balance both pve and pvp makes similar problems worse. How can they ensure all 3 class lines are useful?

Oh, well, that's fair. I'm still a PvP newb, and haven't played with Arcanist yet. I just assumed they were The Best Class For Everything because of how many people complain about them, lol.

ankeor · February 11

Stx wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

I disagree.
Classes are already quite homogenized within past years.
It started first with psijic skill line, later hybridization and as last scrybing.
Any distinction between different builds is achived thru class skill lines and removing the requirement to use them will eradicate build diversity even further.

What causes homogeneity is min/maxing. Which will never go away. Tying class passives to abilities needing to be slotted absolutely restricts build diversity.

Example: I want to make a cool Stam Sorc build like Thor, that uses storm skills and weapon abilities. But wait, to gain powerful Daedric summoning passives, I need to have one of those abilities slotted. To gain powerful buffs from dark magic, I need to cast those abilities.

Example 2: I want to make a poison knight DK build that loads up on poison ardent flame abilities and poison abilities from weapons. Oops, to gain access to 10% weapon power, I need to cast earthen abilities.

There are endless examples like this where cool build themes are made weaker and less viable due to restrictive requirements for class passives.

One thing to note is that ZOS is aware of this issue and has slowly made changes to improve passive accessibility. One of the changes that comes to mind is changing the Burning light passive from Templars to proc from all damage instead of just Aedric spear damage. Which was a great change for build diversity even if it was part of the package of Jabs nerfs.

You are correctabout min/maxing. That's the exact reason why builds should work under some restrictions instead of what you are suggesting.

People think that giving people more options and removing restrictions increase diversity.
But it is not the truth.
Restrictions are what really create class identity therefore enable us to have characters with distinct play style compared to others.
In earlier years of the the game classes actually had more distict play style. Problem of diversity came from the game wasn't balanced(it still isn't).

You admit it yourself that changes to templars made them not use their distinct spammable (a melee aoe spammable) and pivot to other common skill lines. You think this made the game more diverse but not templars dps is just look any other dps but beams at the end of the fight.

ankeor · February 11

moo_2021 wrote: »

For class passives. What's the purpose other than to limit build choices and force us to slot otherwise useless abilities? I mean passives like Flourish
and Hemorrhage, not those with scaled effects to the numbers of abilities.

I think you complain at the wrong direction.
They should make class abilities more useful and powerful so we would rather use them instead of other generic abilities.
If there are plenty of powerful weapons/guild/etc skill lines. They could transfer some of that power to class skill lines so they would actually use or at least want to slot them instead seeing them as useless.
Each class skill lines can have more group buffs so you don't have to rely only on Hamorhage as NB.

But if they remove restrictions as you suggest all the classes play even more similar to each other.
It is like having a pot of soup with many different ingredients. You can take a spoon and eat some of it. Each time getting a different ingredient with the spoon but they all have the same taste.

Avran_Sylt · February 11

Taril wrote: »

To be honest, class passives could do with an overhaul completely.

Given the large amount of "Generic" passives like the "You get some Ultimate when you use a skill every so often" or "You have X% more stats/damage"

A lot of this stuff could easily be baked into baseline aspects of the game.

Like the ult generation thing could simply be scrapped and have the default ult generation buff from LA/HA/Healing/Blocking simply be increased slightly.

Classes could have their aura buff (DK's Minor Brutality, Sorc's Minor Prophecy, NB's Minor Savagery, Templar's Minor Sorcery, Warden's Minor Toughness, Cro's Minor Sadness, Arc's Minor Evasion) as simply a base effect where it's just auto-applied to anyone in your group.

Stats/damage can be easily added to CP's... Which could actually help some classes out that have bad sustain passives (Like Templar/Cro)

Leaving class passives more about bolstering up their respective skill lines, empowering them and adding more utility (Not just "Your skills last 2s longer" garbage)

Yeah, just kinda approach them like Signature and Affix scripts of scribing (the ones that activate on ability use), plus general class flavor passives that apply at all times.

Avran_Sylt · February 11

moo_2021 wrote: »

For class passives. What's the purpose other than to limit build choices and force us to slot otherwise useless abilities? I mean passives like Flourish
and Hemorrhage, not those with scaled effects to the numbers of abilities.

because if now you get the passives for any other skill, those abilities are now useless and need to be powercrept. Scribing kinda works by using the affix and signature scripts as "class" passives.

magnusthorek · February 11

Another scenario: Templars could have the Piercing Spear passive naturally, without needing an Aedric Spear ability slotted. It would be nice to NOT have the (quite slow) Blazing Shards on the main-bar along jabs, thus sparing a slot for something else (e.g. Camouflaged Hunter, Turn Evil, etc.), instead of possibly having to move it to the off-bar along the magicka-related dots.

Wouldn't make much difference as my loved Templar is ZOS' black sheep (hehe), but it's a very small improvement.

Tandor · February 11

ankeor wrote: »

I disagree.
Classes are already quite homogenized within past years.
It started first with psijic skill line, later hybridization and as last scrybing.
Any distinction between different builds is achived thru class skill lines and removing the requirement to use them will eradicate build diversity even further.

Agreed.