Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

WaywardArgonian · February 10

I think people are overestimating the amount of secrecy surrounding PVP builds. Most players are not willing to share their builds? That's not my experience. Maybe if you are a complete rando asking the first person who kills you about their build, you won't get an answer. But if you participate in PVP often and become part of some communities, most people will share builds and other ideas with you.

When someone isn't willing to share a build, it's mostly either because they realize the build is broken and do not want to fight against it (these are pretty rare btw), or more often they're trying to maintain an air of secrecy around a build that's common knowledge so that they can pretend they're the ones who came up with it. Also realize that most people you encounter in PVP will be running the same types of builds. Wretched Vitality + Rallying Cry (or Crafty Alfiq on Sorc) when solo, and organized groups all wear 1-2 buff sets per person.

I don't care much for an inspect feature one way or the other, but I do think its inclusion would lead to more gatekeeping as it's inevitable people will kick you from dungeons/trials for running the 'wrong' set-up, whereas the 'elitism' surrounding PVP builds is mostly smoke and mirrors.

This would help allievate the "oh they have to be cheating to hit that hard, while being that tanky" argument by giving other players tangible figures to compare to.

Sadly, I don't think it would. I've been in groups where the leader saw cheaters everywhere and I've given them builds to run, but years later they are still out there screaming about cheaters because they are just coping for a huge skill gap that can't be solved through the use or understanding of optimal builds.

Varana · February 10

AzuraFan wrote: »

I was playing one of my low level alts (level 14 or 15), minding my own business in Stonefalls, when a player started messaging me about the potions I had equipped (the abundant tri-restoration potion!). I have no idea how they could have known except maybe by using some exploit.

If you mean the crown tri-potions, they have a unique activation effect - a kind of golden light on your character - when you drink them.

Xarc · February 10

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What I'm wearing is my business, not yours. If I want to share, I will. If I don't, I won't.

That’s fair, but PvP isn’t just about YOU it’s about competition. When you step into a competitive environment, the expectation should be that players have access to the same level of information to strategize and counterplay.

Right now, those who already know the meta or have insider knowledge have an unfair advantage over those who don’t.

No one’s asking to ‘invade your privacy’ we’re asking for a way to make PvP less about guessing and more about actual skill-based adaptation. If the only reason a build works is because opponents can’t figure it out, is it really strong, or just hidden?

Same level of information? That already exists. You don't know my build. I don't know yours. That sounds pretty even to me.

I agree

So there's a player who does research, racks his brains and creates a build, does lots of testing for months or years, and you press a button and steal it from him?

No thanks.

xylena_lazarow · February 10

katanagirl1 wrote: »

You can look at the death recap and learn a lot.

Death recaps are misleading and badly designed. There's no timestamps, dots are consolidated without indication of time interval, recent damage events are listed or ignored based on unknowable logic... so when a normal player trained on normal death recaps PvPs the mega tryhard who reads CMX addon logs, they get obliterated so badly they think it can only be "cheating" as there's no clue to how their opponent is dumping so much damage seemingly all at once.

I also see a lot of casual to mid players vastly overestimating what they'll gain from looking at someone's build. You don't need to see my build to know within 3 seconds of fighting me that I'm a dot pressure DK, seeing my gear isn't going to explain how I'm piloting it, nor how to fight against it, nor explain my build decisions... still not against the idea though, the build system is obtuse enough, and there aren't enough good build resources out there.

Grizzbeorn · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

is that really what competitive PvP should be about? Competition should be about skill, strategy, and adaptation

Not much skill needed to adapt if you can invade the other player's privacy against their will in order to see what they are wearing.

Reverb · February 10

You put a lot of thought into how to make pvp more toxic. Pass.

Ph1p · February 10

While well-intentioned, I think your proposal could potentially backfire in two ways.

First, it incentivizes spying on the enemy to adapt your build even before engaging in combat. This would disrupt the flow of PVP and lead to less actual fighting time. For the same reason, it also adds a huge advantage for gankers.

Second, it may not help the people you think it will. Inspecting other players' setups is only helpful if you know how to counter various builds and have the gear, abilities, and experience to do so. So it will particularly benefit "elitists" who have tons of setups saved in Dressing Room or Wizard's Wardrobe, ready to switch in a fraction of a second after an inspection.

xylena_lazarow · February 10

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Not much skill needed to adapt if you can invade the other player's privacy against their will in order to see what they are wearing.

Here's my build. Not much skill needed? Okay come fight me in Cyro or BGs...

Four_Fingers · February 10

You are supposed to learn the skill of reading the visual effects that the skills and sets place upon you and react accordingly.
Not have the game tell you every little detail, why I enjoy PvP on console more than PC because no addons etc.

Juju_beans · February 10

And then used as a tool to exclude people from groups unless they are wearing X gear....like what has happened in other games where you can inspect a character's gear.

No thanks.

Rogue_Coyote · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Yeah, stop and inspect me by the time you do your dead.

Sorry for trying to actually understand the game and not having infinite knowledge at lvl 1

To be fair, at level 1 you won't be able to copy the build anyway

JaxontheUnfortunate · February 10

While I am not opposed to the idea, there should be an option for a player to either opt in or out of a feature of this nature, or perhaps to have a way to easily send a copy of the build through in game mail if someone asks another player what they were using.

AzuraFan · February 10

Varana wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

I was playing one of my low level alts (level 14 or 15), minding my own business in Stonefalls, when a player started messaging me about the potions I had equipped (the abundant tri-restoration potion!). I have no idea how they could have known except maybe by using some exploit.

If you mean the crown tri-potions, they have a unique activation effect - a kind of golden light on your character - when you drink them.

I suppose it's possible that I used one and the player saw me, but I was in Stonefalls and I was just standing around at the time, so I'm thinking not. In any event, it doesn't matter how they knew. What matters is that they did know and chose to message me about it. So I hate to think about what would happen if everyone could see everyone else's gear, potions, etc.

Kelenan7368 · February 10

Nope it should not! Worry about your own builds and not everyone else!
No one needs to know the build of team mate or opponents!
It's not required or necessary to play!
Just make your own build and have fun.

ganzaeso · February 10

NoSoup wrote: »

There's a big chunk of the community that will fight this like crazy so doubt it will ever make it to live. That being said, I don't have a problem with more information being shared on death recaps to include the spell/weapon power, penetration, core recoveries and resistences of the person that attacked you. This would help allievate the "oh they have to be cheating to hit that hard, while being that tanky" argument by giving other players tangible figures to compare to.

I could get behind the idea of showing the stats of combat participants in PvP.

sans-culottes · February 10

TaSheen wrote: »

I've always really disliked games which allow inspect. It's one of the things that (added to other issues) caused me to drop both WoW and RIFT. Haven't touched either one in a decade....

[edit for typo]

I can safely say the ability to inspect has never made me quit a game. Conversely, its lack here is baffling.

JaxontheUnfortunate · February 10

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

Nope it should not! Worry about your own builds and not everyone else!
No one needs to know the build of team mate or opponents!
It's not required or necessary to play!
Just make your own build and have fun.

Yup, I brought a pve tank build into IC the other night was great silly fun

Lixiviant · February 10

If I put together a build, good or bad, it really isn't anyones' business what I did. The game is about exploring and coming up with your own ideas of a good build, not a cut and paste.

Major_Mangle · February 10

freespirit wrote: »

Quoted for reasoning "Plenty of players run off-meta, hybrid, or deceptive builds that can completely change a fight."

and they do so because they''ve worked at it, theory crafted, tried multiple options...... why on earth would they want you to see what they have discovered through their own hard work??

It's a hard no from me I'm afraid!!

As someone who encounterlog more or less all the BG`s I do (/encounterlog on PC allows me to at least see what the players on my team uses) I can assure you that the amount of "off-meta/deceptive builds" that can change a fight is more or less equal to 0. I might see maybe 1 or 2 builds like that per PATCH if lucky. The amount of "I wish I never knew/saw what others were using" moments is more than I want to admit.

From a PvP perspective, the only time someone really want to hide their build/setup is when they´ve found something unintended and want to keep it hidden for as long as possible, but outside of those scenarios the amount of unique and rare builds in PvP that are effective doesn´t really exist. The PvP meta hasn´t changed that much in terms of what sets are BiS (depending on purpose) for the last 2-3 years. However, I´d not be against the feature to inspect other player.

Rittings · February 10

I definitely think inspecting other players (like Diablo and other MMO's do, should be a core mechanic PERIOD in the game). It enables players to see what the other supports might be wearing in a trial so they can adjust their own gear accordingly (especially in random trials and dungeons etc) - but not only that, if they see a player performing superbly in content, it's always good to have a look at what the player is running (skills and gear) so they too can copy the build, or build something of their own similar.... thus helping everyone to grow together.

RealLoveBVB · February 10

Let's say they add something to reveal everyone's build. Are you going to the forums to ask for any counter for every build too?

Because with all respect: if you can't recognise a build from an enemy, then you wouldn't recognise a build to counter it either.

Besides that, pvp isn't math. It's about experimenting. Everyone should find out, what suits him the best. That's what everyone does here so far.

wolfie1.0. · February 10

OK let's assume this gets implemented with no option for opt out.

What you would likely find is that most players are running 1) meta pvp builds or builds that were meta and people just dont want to change 2) pve builds which happen to be whatever they had on the character or just cobbled together or 3) some niche unlikely build that sometimes works but most often doesn't.

For that benefit you will see people hatting on builds and excluding people from groups more than they do now.

Not to mention the addon potential this would bring for both good and bad. Given what I said earlier and the news around what information an addon could extract via inspect, it would have to be locked down real well.

Not sure it's worth the effort to find out this information when a simple Google search can probably find the build that killed you.

Also, keep in mind that if zos spent the time to develop this, it wouldn't be for pvp alone, it would get rolled out into pve. Not sure players would like that.

redlink1979 · February 10

Asdara wrote:

Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

No it shouldn't.

BananaBender · February 10

Major_Mangle wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Quoted for reasoning "Plenty of players run off-meta, hybrid, or deceptive builds that can completely change a fight."

and they do so because they''ve worked at it, theory crafted, tried multiple options...... why on earth would they want you to see what they have discovered through their own hard work??

It's a hard no from me I'm afraid!!

As someone who encounterlog more or less all the BG`s I do (/encounterlog on PC allows me to at least see what the players on my team uses) I can assure you that the amount of "off-meta/deceptive builds" that can change a fight is more or less equal to 0. I might see maybe 1 or 2 builds like that per PATCH if lucky. The amount of "I wish I never knew/saw what others were using" moments is more than I want to admit.

From a PvP perspective, the only time someone really want to hide their build/setup is when they´ve found something unintended and want to keep it hidden for as long as possible, but outside of those scenarios the amount of unique and rare builds in PvP that are effective doesn´t really exist. The PvP meta hasn´t changed that much in terms of what sets are BiS (depending on purpose) for the last 2-3 years. However, I´d not be against the feature to inspect other player.

I'm so surprised that there has been so few mentions of /encounterlog. Anyone who has done any organized raiding knows that this already exists in the game.

Ishtarknows · February 10

If we get an inspection mode it should only be available in a group setting because if you're playing in a group - PvE or PvP - your groupmates are relying on you to play your role properly and wearing suitable gear is part of that. Obviously choosing to use it is up to the group - I'd imagine pugs that don't care about buff sets or DPS won't care about your sets either, but others do and it would be useful for a support to find out what their fellow tank/healer is wearing if the other won't join party chat or link/type in chat or see whether your Zenkosh who just joined is actually wearing the sets.

As for PvP, that's a noman's land of personal builds and theory crafting. All's fair in love and war. To make set combos available to others who can't/won't do their own work isn't fair imo.

Asdara · February 10

redlink1979 wrote: »

Asdara wrote:

Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

No it shouldn't.

Hopefully you commented with such an argumented and profound view, thank you for your contribution

freespirit · February 10

Major_Mangle wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Quoted for reasoning "Plenty of players run off-meta, hybrid, or deceptive builds that can completely change a fight."

and they do so because they''ve worked at it, theory crafted, tried multiple options...... why on earth would they want you to see what they have discovered through their own hard work??

It's a hard no from me I'm afraid!!

As someone who encounterlog more or less all the BG`s I do (/encounterlog on PC allows me to at least see what the players on my team uses) I can assure you that the amount of "off-meta/deceptive builds" that can change a fight is more or less equal to 0. I might see maybe 1 or 2 builds like that per PATCH if lucky. The amount of "I wish I never knew/saw what others were using" moments is more than I want to admit.

From a PvP perspective, the only time someone really want to hide their build/setup is when they´ve found something unintended and want to keep it hidden for as long as possible, but outside of those scenarios the amount of unique and rare builds in PvP that are effective doesn´t really exist. The PvP meta hasn´t changed that much in terms of what sets are BiS (depending on purpose) for the last 2-3 years. However, I´d not be against the feature to inspect other player.

I often help out a few of my friends and Guildies by being their punch bag when they are theory crafting builds, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or that people do actually put a lot of work into making their own unique builds.

Personnally I have still to this day never done a BG but I have spent a lot of time in IC and Cyrodiil, all my characters are at least Captains with a couple being much higher rank. I have never copied a build in my life and I think individuality is great!

JaxontheUnfortunate · February 10

Lol yeah as a DK main I will never stop using pyrebrand I love that set, and use it whenever possible.

AlnilamE · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Same level of information? That already exists. You don't know my build. I don't know yours. That sounds pretty even to me.

That’s not ‘even’ , that’s just enforced ignorance. Competitive games aren’t about both players being equally clueless, they’re about both having the tools to adapt and counterplay.

Right now, the advantage goes to those who already know the meta, have inside knowledge, or simply get lucky guessing. That’s not competition that’s just unnecessary gatekeeping. If a build is strong, it should hold up even when people know what it is. If it only works because no one can figure it out, then maybe it’s not as good as you think.

You are greatly overestimating the effect of sets as opposed to the effect of skill for people who are veteran PvPers. I'm a PvP scrub and if I go to Cyrodiil with my PvP guild, even if I have the same build they do, I do not play as well as they do.

As others pointed out, death recaps and skill effects will give you a lot of info. And knowing exactly what someone else is wearing will only help you if you can swap to the "perfect counter" on the fly, which you can't in Cyrodiil. And if you have a PvP guild you can group with, they will give you lots of tips as well.

Soraka · February 10

AzuraFan wrote: »

I rarely PvP so I don't have a horse in that race, but for PvE I'd hate it if they enabled inspection. Inspection opens up the potential for players to trash talk other players. I told this story the last time this suggestion was made...

I was playing one of my low level alts (level 14 or 15), minding my own business in Stonefalls, when a player started messaging me about the potions I had equipped (the abundant tri-restoration potion!). I have no idea how they could have known except maybe by using some exploit. I wasn't grouped and hadn't been playing with anyone at all - it happened several years ago, during my completely solo days. Anyway, this player implied that I was some sort of idiot for using those potions. I ignored them and they eventually stopped messaging, but it ruined my night. To be honest, it almost made me quit the game, but then I decided I wouldn't let one jerk stop me from doing something I enjoy.

If all players were considerate and nice, enabling a feature like inspecting builds and equipment wouldn't be an issue. But alas...

100% the only reason I cringe at the suggestion. Otherwise, I don't care one way or the other.