Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

Asdara · February 10

TaSheen wrote: »

Um. My husband and I could figure out teams just by how they play the game (even without insignia or jersey colors).... Seriously, some of us do get that amount of detail (not to mention how players move, their body style and bulk etc.)

Um. Congrats on being football clairvoyants, I guess?
Too bad the rest of us don’t have psychic powers to detect someone’s Mythic, Monster Set, and back-bar cheese just by "how they move."

This isn’t about some people being able to guess better than others ! it’s about making PvP fair and strategic for everyone. If you think relying on hidden knowledge instead of actual counterplay makes for a good competitive environment, then you’re just proving my point.

silky_soft · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

Disclaimer: This article is written from a PvP perspective and focuses solely on the importance of inspecting other players within PvP scenarios in ESO.

Inspecting other players should be a core mechanic of PvP because it directly supports the competitive nature of the game.

Atm you're forced to guess, which is not only frustrating but puts you at a disadvantage compared to those who have access to detailed information. Without an inspection feature, you’re left in the dark, guessing at the opponent's build, making it impossible to develop an intelligent counter-strategy. Moreover, with the increasing number of players using cosmetic skins for spell and scribing, reading a player's build or determining their skill usage has become nearly impossible. This makes the already difficult task of understanding an opponent’s build even more challenging. What’s the point of even trying to study an enemy player at this point? Why should I waste time fumbling around trying to guess what your setup is?
It’s like playing a game of “guess the ability” when you're already at a disadvantage. The cosmetic skins may look cool, but they add an unnecessary layer of confusion that hinders any meaningful competitive interaction, especially when combined with the lack of an inspection feature.

Oh, and I can hear the people in the back screaming, "You can just ask them lol."

Well, let's be honest here, most PvP players don’t want to share their builds. They’ve spent hours perfecting their setups, testing what works best, and putting in the work to gain an edge. Asking them for that info? You're not likely to get a response, or if you do, it’s often vague or unhelpful. The reality is, many players keep their builds to themselves to maintain their competitive advantage. That's why having the ability to inspect their gear, abilities, and buffs is so essential. It’s not about interrupting the flow or bothering anyone, it's about leveling the playing field and ensuring that knowledge is accessible, not just hoarded by the few who are willing to share.

Then, there’s the issue of player knowledge and growth. Inspections are not just about "checking out" your opponent they’re about learning. How did that player do so much damage? Why are they healing so much? What set are they using that gives them that insane defense? These are questions that should drive us to improve our own gameplay. Instead, without an inspection feature, we're left to guess, or worse fall into a toxic loop of trial and error. If I could see what gear, traits, or abilities you're running, I could adjust my own strategies and builds to actually learn and evolve as a player. Isn't that what PvP is about? Testing your skills, adapting, and getting better?

I've also heard the argument about the fact that it will "promote elitism"

The very idea that inspecting someone’s gear or abilities somehow promotes elitism or a sense of superiority is a weak excuse. If anything, not being able to inspect gear only helps the truly elitist players: those who have the best setups but refuse to share their knowledge. Let’s be real here: someone with better gear should be able to showcase that gear without fear of being judged for it. If a player is running a top-tier build, they should want others to see it because it’s the result of their effort, knowledge, and investment. But without an inspection feature, players with suboptimal setups are left to assume that everyone has the same opportunities which is far from true.
Furthermore, not having an inspection feature ruins the sense of community and cooperative learning. When players can’t inspect each other, it fosters an environment of secrecy and isolation. Yes, players can ask each other what they’re wearing, but that depends on the willingness of the other player to actually share this information. And if they don't want to? Tough luck. The game should provide the means to encourage communication and shared learning without having to jump through hoops. If I see someone kicking butt in PvP, I should be able to inspect them, learn from them, and potentially even mimic or adapt their tactics. Instead, without that feature, it feels like we're stuck in the dark ages of MMO design, where players only succeed through trial, error, and pure luck.

Finally, nowadays content creators have become the only reliable sources of build knowledge and PvP strategies.
But here's the catch !
These creators are becoming increasingly rare. Fewer and fewer players are willing to pour their time into creating guides, builds, and tutorials. This is especially problematic for new or casual players who rely on these creators to understand the game's complex mechanics. Without an inspection system in place, players are left at the mercy of these rare guides, which may not always be up to date or easy to find. It's frustrating that the game itself doesn't support this kind of learning through basic features, forcing players to jump through hoops or rely solely on outside sources, which is neither efficient nor sustainable in the long run.

If you play BG you can see other peoples gear.
/encounterlog

Enjoy

Amottica · February 10

The lack of an inspection is not that big of a deal. It does not take away from our games or any sense of competitiveness in PvP as suggested or from PvE.

I find it odd that being able to inspect a player adds any competitiveness in PvP since a player's skill and the choices made in combat define how competitive a player is. If anything, the lack of inspection increases competitiveness since it would drive players to figure out what works best for them instead of copying what someone else has.

If anything, watching what someone does and their strategy does a lot more than inspecting gear could ever do. Watching videos and grabbing the recording of one's gameplay when defeated by another player to see how they counter or take advantage of our moves leads to learning how to play better. Seeing someone's gear teaches next to nothing. I know on PC we can set things up to grab the last few minutes of gameplay with a simple keybind. I understand that it can be done via Google search on both consoles as well.

spartaxoxo · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

This isn’t about some people being able to guess better than others ! it’s about making PvP fair and strategic for everyone. If you think relying on hidden knowledge instead of actual counterplay makes for a good competitive environment, then you’re just proving my point.

I agree. PvP in this game struggles greatly. I don't believe it's only performance either. I think that the gap between vet PvP players and players that are new to PvP is far too great. People are able to make these super tanky builds that can still cut through newbies in pve gear like butter. And when that person is killed so quickly, they don't even know what was worn to cause it so they can't even go back and develop counterplay on their own.

Yeah, you can learn this stuff with videos guides, friends, etc. But such a steep learning curve just makes a lot of people not even bother and instead play PvP in games where the competition is more fair.

It might be too late to fix it though. Playerbase is dwindling and they've already had it this way for so long that people have already decided they don't like PvP in this game and nothing they do could solve that. In which case, changes would just drive out the niche audience it still has.

Asdara · February 10

Amottica wrote: »

The lack of an inspection is not that big of a deal. It does not take away from our games or any sense of competitiveness in PvP as suggested or from PvE.

I find it odd that being able to inspect a player adds any competitiveness in PvP since a player's skill and the choices made in combat define how competitive a player is. If anything, the lack of inspection increases competitiveness since it would drive players to figure out what works best for them instead of copying what someone else has.

If anything, watching what someone does and their strategy does a lot more than inspecting gear could ever do. Watching videos and grabbing the recording of one's gameplay when defeated by another player to see how they counter or take advantage of our moves leads to learning how to play better. Seeing someone's gear teaches next to nothing. I know on PC we can set things up to grab the last few minutes of gameplay with a simple keybind. I understand that it can be done via Google search on both consoles as well.

If the lack of an inspection feature ‘doesn’t take away from competitiveness,’ then why do so many competitive games provide tools to analyze opponents? Fighting games have frame data, RTS games let you study build orders, and even MOBAs let you see enemy itemization. But somehow, in ESO PvP, we should just blindly guess and ‘figure it out’? That’s not competition, that’s just trial-and-error nonsense.

And let’s be real, watching a video of someone killing you won’t magically tell you what set bonuses, passives, and procs they’re using. If I lose to a tanky build and don’t know whether they’re running Mara’s Balm, Pariah, or something else entirely, how exactly am I supposed to adjust?

Inspection wouldn’t remove skill, it would remove needless barriers that serve no purpose other than keeping PvP a guessing game.

If you need your build hidden to maintain an advantage, you’re not competing, you’re gatekeeping.

IncultaWolf · February 10

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

A lot of people simply do not want you to know what sets they are using.

Can you blame them though? Given the history of item sets being nerfed, even sets that hardly anyone ever used they might worry that if it becomes mainstream it will receive attention leading to their set being reworked or destroyed.

Four_Fingers · February 10

What it would shockingly reveal is that everyone is using the same 2 or 3 meta builds at that time.

spartaxoxo · February 10

IncultaWolf wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

A lot of people simply do not want you to know what sets they are using.

Can you blame them though? Given the history of item sets being nerfed, even sets that hardly anyone ever used they might worry that if it becomes mainstream it will receive attention leading to their set being reworked or destroyed.

Yeah. I don't blame them. I don't think it's a reason not to have inspect. But, I do agree it's a good and fair concern. I think zos really needs to take a look at how they rebalance sets when they've decided they're doing too much. PvP and PvE both.

VoxAdActa · February 10

You can't tell which team people are on?

You know there's a setting for that under "Nameplates," right?

And if you can't tell someone's a healer when they're casting beams of white light from a stick, I don't know that any kind of "inspect" feature will help.

Wanna know what someone's build is? Look up the meta PvP builds. There are only like 4, and basically everyone is using them. Problem solved.

IncultaWolf · February 10

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

This isn’t about some people being able to guess better than others ! it’s about making PvP fair and strategic for everyone. If you think relying on hidden knowledge instead of actual counterplay makes for a good competitive environment, then you’re just proving my point.

I agree. PvP in this game struggles greatly. I don't believe it's only performance either. I think that the gap between vet PvP players and players that are new to PvP is far too great. People are able to make these super tanky builds that can still cut through newbies in pve gear like butter. And when that person is killed so quickly, they don't even know what was worn to cause it so they can't even go back and develop counterplay on their own.

Yeah, you can learn this stuff with videos guides, friends, etc. But such a steep learning curve just makes a lot of people not even bother and instead play PvP in games where the competition is more fair.

It might be too late to fix it though. Playerbase is dwindling and they've already had it this way for so long that people have already decided they don't like PvP in this game and nothing they do could solve that. In which case, changes would just drive out the niche audience it still has.

I think the pts cyrodiil vengeance campaign has the chance to fix this honestly. Not sure if you've checked it out but everyone has the same gear and stats. I'm not opposed to it as long as they keep that change out of battlegrounds/IC/duels. I always found cyrodiil to be more noob friendly as you can just zerg surf and generally be safe inside keeps.

Asdara · February 10

VoxAdActa wrote: »

You can't tell which team people are on?

You know there's a setting for that under "Nameplates," right?

And if you can't tell someone's a healer when they're casting beams of white light from a stick, I don't know that any kind of "inspect" feature will help.

Wanna know what someone's build is? Look up the meta PvP builds. There are only like 4, and basically everyone is using them. Problem solved.

Ah yes, the ‘everyone runs the same 4 builds’ excuse—lazy and completely wrong. Plenty of players run off-meta, hybrid, or deceptive builds that can completely change a fight. But sure, I’ll just guess which Mythic, proc set, and back-bar trickery they’re using while dodging 15 AoEs 23 spells with different rainbow color and 80 scribed skills. Genius.

Why are you commenting at this point? If all you’re here to do is play devil’s advocate with shallow arguments and a biased, false standpoint, maybe just sit this one out. You’re not adding anything meaningful, just grasping at bad comparisons and oversimplifications that don’t hold up. If you have a real counterpoint, make it. If not, don’t waste everyone’s time

darvaria · February 10

This isn't World of Warcraft.

VoxAdActa · February 10

I just don't understand how your suggestion will help anything. All of the problems with this alleged "secrecy" are individual performance problems, not system problems. You haven't explained how you intend to analyze even a single person's build in combat, much less a group's or a zerg's, nor have you explained how you intend to take advantage of that information after you've attained it. Are you immediately going to port back to your armory station, build a whole new setup, port back, and try to find that one guy you can now counter?

Asdara · February 10

darvaria wrote: »

This isn't World of Warcraft.

Great observation! And? What’s your point?

If your entire argument is ‘ESO isn’t WoW,’ then you’re not actually addressing anything.
Plenty of MMOs (if not most) PvP-focused or not ,have inspection features because they add strategic depth and accessibility. Saying ‘this isn’t WoW’ isn’t a counterpoint, it’s just an empty statement.

If you have a real reason why keeping builds hidden somehow improves competitive PvP, let’s hear it. Otherwise, what are you doing here?

Asdara · February 10

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I just don't understand how your suggestion will help anything. All of the problems with this alleged "secrecy" are individual performance problems, not system problems. You haven't explained how you intend to analyze even a single person's build in combat, much less a group's or a zerg's, nor have you explained how you intend to take advantage of that information after you've attained it. Are you immediately going to port back to your armory station, build a whole new setup, port back, and try to find that one guy you can now counter?

You ‘just don’t understand’ because you don’t want to. This isn’t about mid-fight inspections, that’s a bad-faith strawman. It’s about long-term learning, counterplay, and making PvP less of a guessing game.

Right now, if I lose to someone, I can’t even begin to analyze why. I don’t know if their tankiness came from Pariah, Mara’s Balm, or something else entirely. I don’t know if their sustain is from their set bonuses, a specific Mythic, or just clever play. Without that knowledge, adapting is just trial and error.

And no, it’s not about ‘porting back to an armory station’ mid-fight ,that’s an absurd reach. It’s about gathering information over time to refine builds and strategies, just like in any other competitive game where data is available. If you think PvP should be about blindly stumbling through fights instead of learning and adapting, then you’re just arguing to keep an artificial advantage, not for actual competition.

VoxAdActa · February 10

Right now, if I lose to someone, I can’t even begin to analyze why. I don’t know if their tankiness came from Pariah, Mara’s Balm, or something else entirely. I don’t know if their sustain is from their set bonuses, a specific Mythic, or just clever play.

And how will that information help you? You already know several sources of tankiness and sustain. Are you hoping to expose some secret technique? Are you under the impression that there are clandestine guilds who have uncovered a mysterious new build using off-meta sets and skills?

It’s about gathering information over time to refine builds and strategies, just like in any other competitive game where data is available.

You already have access to that information, assuming you're not expecting to find a shady fraternity of PvPers who have access to unique knowledge that none of the hundreds of streamers and theorycrafters you can freely analyze have.

If you think PvP should be about blindly stumbling through fights instead of learning and adapting, then you’re just arguing to keep an artificial advantage, not for actual competition.

You shouldn't be blindly stumbling if you make use of the copious resources that already exist. But if you need ZOS to create a public database of every single PvPer's entire current build that updates in real time and includes whether or not each player is online and which campaign they're in (because otherwise, you wont know who you need to counter today, since all PvP builds are so unique), so you can study it before you go to Cyrodiil, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. That’s simply not feasible.

AzuraFan · February 10

I rarely PvP so I don't have a horse in that race, but for PvE I'd hate it if they enabled inspection. Inspection opens up the potential for players to trash talk other players. I told this story the last time this suggestion was made...

I was playing one of my low level alts (level 14 or 15), minding my own business in Stonefalls, when a player started messaging me about the potions I had equipped (the abundant tri-restoration potion!). I have no idea how they could have known except maybe by using some exploit. I wasn't grouped and hadn't been playing with anyone at all - it happened several years ago, during my completely solo days. Anyway, this player implied that I was some sort of idiot for using those potions. I ignored them and they eventually stopped messaging, but it ruined my night. To be honest, it almost made me quit the game, but then I decided I wouldn't let one jerk stop me from doing something I enjoy.

If all players were considerate and nice, enabling a feature like inspecting builds and equipment wouldn't be an issue. But alas...

VoxAdActa · February 10

I guess maybe we should back up a step. What do you mean when you say "inspecting other players"? What does this mechanic look like to you? How does it function? What does it show, and when, and how?

Asdara · February 10

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I guess maybe we should back up a step. What do you mean when you say "inspecting other players"? What does this mechanic look like to you? How does it function? What does it show, and when, and how?

Inspecting means exactly what it sounds like, being able to see another player’s equipped gear, active sets, and slotted abilities. Just like in other MMOs with inspection features, it would function through a simple UI interaction, either by targeting a player and selecting ‘Inspect’ / via a command or on the death recap or maybe with an armoury like wow did. It would show their armor, weapons, traits, and active slotted skills—basic, non-hidden information that directly affects PvP engagements.

When? Any time outside of combat to prevent abuse. How? A simple right-click or keybind, just like we already have for inviting, trading, and reporting. This isn’t some radical, untested idea it’s a standard QoL feature in competitive games.

Hapexamendios · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What I'm wearing is my business, not yours. If I want to share, I will. If I don't, I won't.

That’s fair, but PvP isn’t just about YOU it’s about competition. When you step into a competitive environment, the expectation should be that players have access to the same level of information to strategize and counterplay.

Right now, those who already know the meta or have insider knowledge have an unfair advantage over those who don’t.

No one’s asking to ‘invade your privacy’ we’re asking for a way to make PvP less about guessing and more about actual skill-based adaptation. If the only reason a build works is because opponents can’t figure it out, is it really strong, or just hidden?

Same level of information? That already exists. You don't know my build. I don't know yours. That sounds pretty even to me.

VoxAdActa · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I guess maybe we should back up a step. What do you mean when you say "inspecting other players"? What does this mechanic look like to you? How does it function? What does it show, and when, and how?

Inspecting means exactly what it sounds like, being able to see another player’s equipped gear, active sets, and slotted abilities. Just like in other MMOs with inspection features, it would function through a simple UI interaction, either by targeting a player and selecting ‘Inspect’ / via a command or on the death recap or maybe with an armoury like wow did. It would show their armor, weapons, traits, and active slotted skills—basic, non-hidden information that directly affects PvP engagements.

When? Any time outside of combat to prevent abuse. How? A simple right-click or keybind, just like we already have for inviting, trading, and reporting. This isn’t some radical, untested idea it’s a standard QoL feature in competitive games.

And how do you expect that to help you more than the literally hundreds of people doing this in public for free on YouTube and on min-max sites?

Asdara · February 10

VoxAdActa wrote: »

And how do you expect that to help you more than the literally hundreds of people doing this in public for free on YouTube and on min-max sites?

Relying on YouTube videos and min-max sites isn’t a real solution. Those resources are great for general knowledge, but they don’t tell me what that specific player I just fought is running (And they're becoming more and more rare /updated properly with massiv exode of content creator)
Not everyone follows the exact meta, and many players have unique setups that aren’t covered in guides.

Having an in-game inspection feature would allow players to learn and adapt in real-time within the game, rather than relying on outside sources that may be outdated or incomplete. If PvP is about strategy and counterplay, why limit access to information that helps players improve?

Asdara · February 10

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Same level of information? That already exists. You don't know my build. I don't know yours. That sounds pretty even to me.

That’s not ‘even’ , that’s just enforced ignorance. Competitive games aren’t about both players being equally clueless, they’re about both having the tools to adapt and counterplay.

Right now, the advantage goes to those who already know the meta, have inside knowledge, or simply get lucky guessing. That’s not competition that’s just unnecessary gatekeeping. If a build is strong, it should hold up even when people know what it is. If it only works because no one can figure it out, then maybe it’s not as good as you think.

VoxAdActa · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

And how do you expect that to help you more than the literally hundreds of people doing this in public for free on YouTube and on min-max sites?

Relying on YouTube videos and min-max sites isn’t a real solution. Those resources are great for general knowledge, but they don’t tell me what that specific player I just fought is running (And they're becoming more and more rare /updated properly with massiv exode of content creator)
Not everyone follows the exact meta, and many players have unique setups that aren’t covered in guides.

Having an in-game inspection feature would allow players to learn and adapt in real-time within the game, rather than relying on outside sources that may be outdated or incomplete. If PvP is about strategy and counterplay, why limit access to information that helps players improve?

So you are expecting to get real-time information that you can act on in real time.

How do you plan to act on this information?

katanagirl1 · February 10

You can look at the death recap and learn a lot. You can tell what class and what weapons for sure. Most of them will say Rush of Agony or Tarnished Nightmare procs for gear nowadays depending on the class.

I don’t think allowing other PvP players to see your build should be allowed. A lot of players do use the same sets but others have enough theorycrafting knowledge to come up with unique builds and if they can do that, then they deserve to keep that knowledge to themselves if they choose. You can find all sorts of builds on the internet or you can try some sets on your own. I made a build for one character that consisted of a lot of skills that I got tired of being killed by, and she was my best PvP toon until her class got nerfed hard.

I know there is a steep learning curve to PvP, but making everyone show their builds is not the way to learn and get better. It takes experience and knowing your own capabilities and finding something that works for you. That’s why I don’t go with a cookie cutter build for myself. I may not have certain dlc sets or it might require a certain playstyle that I don’t care to use. I don’t care about being the best either, because I never will be. I die a lot but so does everyone else.

I don’t agree with the gatekeeping statement. That term is generally used when someone doesn’t want to put in the effort to participate in the activity at the same level of others. I’m sure those who are successful in PvP now had to make their way up the ladder just like those starting out now.

Hapexamendios · February 10

Asdara wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Same level of information? That already exists. You don't know my build. I don't know yours. That sounds pretty even to me.

That’s not ‘even’ , that’s just enforced ignorance. Competitive games aren’t about both players being equally clueless, they’re about both having the tools to adapt and counterplay.

Right now, the advantage goes to those who already know the meta, have inside knowledge, or simply get lucky guessing. That’s not competition that’s just unnecessary gatekeeping. If a build is strong, it should hold up even when people know what it is. If it only works because no one can figure it out, then maybe it’s not as good as you think.

😂 Call it whatever you want, it's still even.

freespirit · February 10

Quoted for reasoning "Plenty of players run off-meta, hybrid, or deceptive builds that can completely change a fight."

and they do so because they''ve worked at it, theory crafted, tried multiple options...... why on earth would they want you to see what they have discovered through their own hard work??

It's a hard no from me I'm afraid!!

sshogrin · February 10

Yes, it sucks to get your butt kicked in PvP.
I suck at PvP, but I try. I also watch PvP streamers. They share their builds/setups and even show you what they're doing. Take Bislobo for instance. He shares all his builds and teaches how he uses them.
Yes, PvP can be very imbalanced, look at BGs currently, they're horribly imbalanced right now.
An in game "inspection tool" doesn't seem viable, and will only add to in game issues with the servers. You can look at the death recount in game and see what 5 things hit you last that killed you.
Join a PvP guild and get help from them.
I personally think the addon "Squishy Finder" is a cheat that should be banned by Zos ( @ZOS_Kevin take a look into that), it allows players to find the lowest max health player and lowest health player very easy, and it even helps show players with low impen (glass cannons).

spartaxoxo · February 10

Hapexamendios wrote: »

😂 Call it whatever you want, it's still even.

It's not even because lack of transparency gives a massive advantage to more established players than new ones. If you give vet players too much advantages through things like lack of transparency, then what happens is that they slaughter newbies. Just completely demolish them again and again. So, the newer players just don't bother. As older players eventually grow bored and leave, as a natural part of all games lifecycles, new ones don't replace them. And you get an ever dwindling playerbase of hard core users and not much fun for anyone else.

It's not good for either group if there's a lack of population.

This is why things like noob toobs, transparency, a healthy skill curve that isn't too low or too steep, etc are all important to competitive settings.

NoSoup · February 10

There's a big chunk of the community that will fight this like crazy so doubt it will ever make it to live. That being said, I don't have a problem with more information being shared on death recaps to include the spell/weapon power, penetration, core recoveries and resistences of the person that attacked you. This would help allievate the "oh they have to be cheating to hit that hard, while being that tanky" argument by giving other players tangible figures to compare to.