100% agree, wretched is arguably one of the strongest defensive sets in the game (I personally considered sustain as a defensive stat since it's what gonna allow you to stalemate/keep going at the end of the day). Depending on what recovery buffs you've access to, wretched can allow you to reach almost 1k stam/mag regen which is an insane amout of recovery.

I think a fair change to the set would be to require it to be "double bared" in order to off set how absurdly strong the set actually is. That way the extra sustain comes with a noticeable trade-off.

People often complain how proc sets ruin PvP, but I'd argue that overbloated stat sets like wretched, rallying cry etc is a much bigger problem, mainly because they're a much bigger cause for the tankier meta we've been in for a few years now. Greatly increasing stat density across the board, especially with sustain, also allow you to stack more HP without any real trade off. The game as a whole does need a reduction in powercreep and a bit of a statsquish (goes for PvE as well), but I doubt something like that will happen anytime soon.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

100% agree, wretched is arguably one of the strongest defensive sets in the game (I personally considered sustain as a defensive stat since it's what gonna allow you to stalemate/keep going at the end of the day). Depending on what recovery buffs you've access to, wretched can allow you to reach almost 1k stam/mag regen which is an insane amout of recovery.

I think a fair change to the set would be to require it to be "double bared" in order to off set how absurdly strong the set actually is. That way the extra sustain comes with a noticeable trade-off.

People often complain how proc sets ruin PvP, but I'd argue that overbloated stat sets like wretched, rallying cry etc is a much bigger problem, mainly because they're a much bigger cause for the tankier meta we've been in for a few years now. Greatly increasing stat density across the board, especially with sustain, also allow you to stack more HP without any real trade off. The game as a whole does need a reduction in powercreep and a bit of a statsquish (goes for PvE as well), but I doubt something like that will happen anytime soon.

Tank meta has been around much longer than either of those sets if we're being perfectly honest. Rally Cry actually I think is well balanced because it negatively scales with the number of players you have in your group so that it provides a good stat boost for small groups, but just a minor stat buff for full groups which people are complaining about in PVP.

I honestly see Wretched Vitality in the same light as Rally, though, even though it doesn't have any negative scaling built into it. Why? Because you don't see this set used in large groups. You see this set used in small group play where players are built to 1vX, which if you tried doing, is much more difficult than you think. Sure, it makes those players super tanky and impossible to kill 1v1 - but the character is built for that.

IMO, the bigger issue overall is the ability for tanky players to also do damage. IMO, damage should inversely scale with defensive stats like resistances and health so that players then have to make a choice - do you want to be survivable, OR do you want to do damage?

One last thing that is worth mentioning is that many small groups run 1-2 healers which is also likely contributing to the "unkillable" nature of these groups, but if a healer can't stop people from getting killed, then what good are they?

i11ionward wrote: »

Yes, you're right, this is probably one of the strongest sets in the game for PvP. There are arguments both for and against nerfing this set. On the one hand, it raises the floor for players who struggle with sustain, allowing them to feel like average players. On the other hand, this set is used by unkillable tanks for infinite sustain. I don't know, I don't know...

EDIT

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I think a fair change to the set would be to require it to be "double bared" in order to off set how absurdly strong the set actually is. That way the extra sustain comes with a noticeable trade-off.
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that would be a good compromise

When you say "unkillable tanks" what are you referring to? Are you referring to the guy who kites 20 players in a tower, or the guy who runs out of a keep holding block and you can't stop him from burning your seige?

I think this is an important distinction to make because unkillable block tanks that do ZERO damage don't even use this set, as stamina doesn't regenerate when you hold block, so wretched would be completely useless. If you are referring to the guy kiting 20 players in a tower, there is more to it than just having really good sustain. That playstyle (while I agree is super annoying) is not easy, and to be perfectly honest, is not really all that effective against even an organized small group of players.

And again, my big issue isn't the fact that they're tanky. My big issue is that these players can still do enough damage to kill, which is where I think the problem lies. IMO, damage should scale negatively with survivability stats (resistances and health) so that if you choose to be tanky, you make an intentional tradeoff with your ability to do damage.

It’s helped pvp become more accessible… and I’ve never overly struggled vs another playing wearing this set. Sustain won’t help you if you’re dead lol

One has to the best. It's fine that it's this one. The game needs players doing things. Sets that make the game more accessible is a good thing.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I think a fair change to the set would be to require it to be "double bared" in order to off set how absurdly strong the set actually is. That way the extra sustain comes with a noticeable trade-off.
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Estin wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

The set itself is fine and rather balanced.

Not if you look at other sets with similar MO, it far outshines any other set out there built for sustain rendering the other 99% sustain sets completely weak.

Estin wrote: »

There isn't a reason to nerf it.

For that very reason above. Also im not saying "nerf it" im saying, how about not having one set outshine all other sets.

It really doesn't matter if it outshines every other sustain set that does the same thing. It's a sustain set, practically training wheels. It's not like it's giving someone a significant advantage over someone else, especially with how easily obtainable the set is. More sustain isn't going to make someone tankier nor do more damage. It's actually going to make them weaker in those areas.

You are wrong! The lack of resources directly and literally affects your offensive and defensive stats. If you have no resources, you won’t be able to use offensive skills, meaning your attack potential is zero. The same applies to defense, if you have no resources, you won’t be able to block, dodge, or use healing, making your defensive potential zero.

There are players who know how to manage sustain, and for them, your statement "More sustain isn't going to make someone tankier nor do more damage." is true. But not all players are pro gamers, and for them, the statement holds true that the more sustain they have, the tankier they are and the more damage they deal.

olsborg wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

The set itself is fine and rather balanced.

Not if you look at other sets with similar MO, it far outshines any other set out there built for sustain rendering the other 99% sustain sets completely weak.

Estin wrote: »

There isn't a reason to nerf it.

For that very reason above. Also im not saying "nerf it" im saying, how about not having one set outshine all other sets.

It really doesn't matter if it outshines every other sustain set that does the same thing. It's a sustain set, practically training wheels. It's not like it's giving someone a significant advantage over someone else, especially with how easily obtainable the set is. More sustain isn't going to make someone tankier nor do more damage. It's actually going to make them weaker in those areas.

You have missed the main point of this thread. Basicly, this set makes all the other sustain sets redundant/outdated/useless. And that, I believe, is bad for the game. Unless zos starts just deleting weaker sets from the game on account of them being outdated.

Then buff other sets but make them all a bit unique to enable variation in builds. Diversity is a good thing... amber plasm is a good example. It is 100% useless as it has to be double barred and provides less sustain than wretched. Maybe make it provide more for the five piece given this requirement, like 450 or even 500 and not, what 250... you get 390 for wretched 5 piece for one or two actions that you have to take.

Buff things to bring them in line, dont nerf... except for necro; zos, please nerf.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Buff things to bring them in line, dont nerf... except for necro; zos, please nerf.

Necros are already bad except for as block tanks and bombs. They don't need any nerfs they need some buffs

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Buff things to bring them in line, dont nerf... except for necro; zos, please nerf.

Reverse psychology? Nice. Here's hoping it works better than the usual pleas for Necro buffs.

Amber Plasm: 245 of all regens, passive, not a proc and so can't be back-barred.

Wretched Vitality: 390 stam and mag (no health regen, but that hasn't been relevant in years), proc, can be back-barred.

Wretched is just blatantly superior to an easily comparable passive 5 piece set, the 2-4pc bonuses aside. The proc conditions aren't even difficult, it's bonkers easy to just have it happen naturally.

ESO suffers from an, imo, massive gearing issue where there's an 'active' bar and an 'inactive' bar at any given time, allowing proc sets a huge advantage in that they free up item slot space because they can be built to be active only on one bar, procced, then you just swap to the other bar and still have the benefit. I can run a 2 pc monster set, a 5 pc proc, another 5 pc proc, a mythic, and still have one left over for 1 pc trainee.

That's basically impossible if I wanted to use 'passive' sets that must always be active to give their bonus - there's not enough gear slot room. This invalidates basically any 'passive' set if there's a proc set with equivalent effects and makes gearing very boring. There are a few ways to fix it, but I imagine the easiest is to just make every bar 'active' at all times. I think people would go nuts if ZOS took away the precious backbar proc setup, so might as well open it up to other sets too.

A small nerf would be warranted. 10-15% nerf. Don’t nerf it to the ground.

I agree it's very strong and sustain in general is way too easy.

But then, we see in this thread why sustain is so easy: player demand. Good luck trying to take it away from them.

Nerfing this set in a vacuum isn't the option for the same reason nerfing defensive sets along isn't the answer to the tank meta: because then burst sets would be OP.

Ultimately, PVP needs a comprehensive vision to build towards instead of constant knee-jerking. That involves holistic changes that balance offense, defense and sustain.

And yes, it would be outrageous for a set like this to be adjusted before RoA. I understand why it works the way it does because of PVE dynamics, so please ZOS just eliminate RoA from PVP period.

No, leave it, it’s fine.

RoA, on the other hand…..

Dragonnord wrote: »

Thanks to this set there are more players doing pvp.

And it's not an OP set, it's just a sustain set, and you need to sacrifice offense and other stats to use it.

To pvp you need sustain, if you don't have sustain you can't pvp, if you can't pvp, there's no point in going to pvp zones.
 
The set is perfect as it is now.
 

This guy gets it. Somebody get this man a drink. I'll never understand the amount of people on the forums wanting something nerfed, nerfed, nerfed. Then when a new update nerfs all the good, previous meta's sets to a 6 ft under grave, people come here saying how much they'll miss the set or ask why it got nerfed when other sets are over tuned etc. I mean why hate on a sustain set?

And if you're thinking or saying to yourself "well, no other set is as good as WV so that's why WV needs a nerf so other sets are usable again" that's dumb. If this set is superior to other sets & used because it's superior to so many other sustain sets, then why even worry about using the other sustain sets in the 1st place? You have to farm them, run content, spend time, they'll only come in certain weights, etc. WV is craftable which means it comes in any weight & requires nothing other than your already leveled crafter & if you don't have a crafter for some reason then you just spend gold at a trader or give a guildie mats.

You want a set for any reason whether it be damage, defense or offense you always go with the best you can get for your build. If you refuse to use WV for whatever reasons & want it nerfed because the sustain set or defensive set you do choose to run isn't as good as WV then that's not a reason to nerf it. That's a personal issue. As a final thought if you think that this post, my post is pointless, consider this. I think the same thing when I see posts calling for things like WV to be nerfed yet it is what it is.