katanagirl1 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing posts about sweeping changes to game systems that have been in place for 10 years, especially ones saying they are “too easy”. So many threads wanting to completely change overland, ToT, and now fishing to be more hardcore, somehow without ruining it for the rest of us with “toggles” for everything. I think more than one of those threads was from OP in fact.

I would much rather the dev time be used to give us new stuff instead.

I don't need "hardcore" fishing, I would simply like something that isn't just "press button". Just because something has been a certain way for a long time, that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved, and I think that if the game doesn't take steps to evolve it will definitely not continue to remain popular. It's clear that ZOS understands this based on what was discussed in their letter, and I applaud that new energy. There is so much negativity with regard to anything new in this forum. It's stifling and I wish people were more positive.

I think the thread you're referring to was regarding massive/ultimate attack indicators (I remember your responses), and I stand by my defense of that idea. I think it still holds a lot of value. Now that you mention it, that thread is the very reason I wrote my OP for this one the way that I did. Oh, and I wrote one about holding/storing staves that popped off for a while which you may also have been quite negative about. I still don't understand why that one got so much hate.

OH! And also, yes, I want ToT NPC AI to be tougher on Expert because it's Expert and it makes sense for Expert to be challenging when compared to lower difficulties, so I made a thread about that. I'm sure you hated that one too.

Anyway, this is about fishing.

I was thinking about the harder expert npcs in ToT specifically. Problem with ToT is someone complained that the Novice npcs were too easy so they bumped them up instead. Point is, there is a lot about the game that you want changed to suit you. Not little tweaks either, but some major changes to make this game more like other games. There has to be a justifiable reason to make major changes, usually when something doesn’t work well or when something small might make it work better. A lot of us are saying that fishing works fine for us. It’s not just press a button every few seconds, it’s pressing the button at the right time. I don’t think you PC players get that if you don’t play with a controller, so you spam the button.

I just feel like requests like this are made because people want the game to be changed to fit them instead of learning the game and understanding how to play it effectively instead. That’s not fair to the rest of us.

For what it's worth, I am a PC player, but I use a controller exclusively. "Pressing the button at the right time" is not exactly what I would call a major distinction. You wait to press a button. That's what I've been saying.

I never make a suggestion without the understanding that it affects everyone. I've played MMOs since the Ultima Online beta, I'm very aware of how this works. I just know when something can be better, in a way which suits me, yes, but others also, it feels worthwhile to present. You may not be included in that group, but all I'm doing is presenting an idea which you happen to dislike. That seems to be deeply offensive to you, but I don't think that's my problem.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Although to be fair OP, if the only thing to discuss is "I don't like it," there's really not much else to say beyond "I like it" or "I don't."

First, thanks for the kind words.

There's plenty to say, though. Anyone who has any experience with fishing games can provide their favorite experiences, or if they don't have any, they can register a desire for some kind of general change, like I did. Just because I'm not pitching a certain mechanic, that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to speak up about a desire for change. The fact is, what we have now is effectively a blank slate and I like a lot of different fishing minigames from across gaming history. ZOS could choose any of them or come up with their own idea and it would be an improvement as far as I'm concerned.

In some other venue, this discussion could have become a way for people to present their own ideas, and maybe we could have settled on something that the whole community likes. That's not what people want here. What I see as potential for progress, others see as ruining a thing they love. And they win, because I don't care enough to keep fighting about this.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

From the phrasing of the topic to the focus on other peoples expected objections rather than on the changes desired, this feels more like an invitation for argument. Nothing has really been suggested so there's nothing to really talk about.

I agree. After reading past the OP and the first reply, I see a consensus that nothing tangible has been suggested. Making an actual suggestion would be the meat and potatoes of a suggestion.

Amottica wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

From the phrasing of the topic to the focus on other peoples expected objections rather than on the changes desired, this feels more like an invitation for argument. Nothing has really been suggested so there's nothing to really talk about.

I agree. After reading past the OP and the first reply, I see a consensus that nothing tangible has been suggested. Making an actual suggestion would be the meat and potatoes of a suggestion.

Okay, here's my idea:
When you cast your line, you're transported to the realm of G'Blorpus, the Sload in charge of managing fish populations, and you MUST FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO FISH!

Look out, because G'Blorpus is none too pleased with you undermining his intricate spawning schemes! Get ready to survive 10 waves of crusty foes or you won't get your sea bass! After the battle, a thoroughly harangued G'Blorpus will relent and personally hand you the fish you now rightly deserve. Stand proud, you have defended your honor as a true fisherperson of Tamriel!


It doesn't matter. The point is that anything is better than nothing, which is what we have now. There are plentiful options available to choose from. And I have the feeling that no matter what I would present, I'd see the same people here, with the same opinion.

I want to make something clear: I am not here to present an idea to the community. I'm here to register my interest for change to ZOS, because this is the best place to do it. Feedback is secondary. If ZOS agrees that change is good, they will do what they want to do with fishing, as I'm sure we're all aware.

I'm just gonna throw this out here, fishing in games is boring and the worst aspect of a game. And people who like fishing games are weird. If fishing in eso ever adds a mini game or anything more time consuming than clicking 2 buttons i will never fish again. I don't need roe that badly.

I will say I don't understand why some people are so fixated on the idea that a discussion needs to have specific examples of changes desired. Like...it's a perfectly valid discussion method to state a wish for change and then open the floor to others to see what sort of ideas they have. Because listing specific things will just end up with people nitpicking those things, whereas asking what other people would think is neat, or suggesting vague ideas for other people to springboard off of, requires more engagement.

"I want X to change in <insert very specific reason(s)" is likely to end with people focusing only on that specific stuff, whether to agree or disagree, oftentimes without providing any actual feedback or suggestions of their own.

"I want X to change, these are some ways it's been done before, what do you guys think" should encourage people to actually think about the topic, give reasons why they agree or disagree. To respond to an open-ended question meant to provoke discussion with "lol give actual examples" feels like it's missing the point.

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

In some other venue, this discussion could have become a way for people to present their own ideas, and maybe we could have settled on something that the whole community likes. That's not what people want here. What I see as potential for progress, others see as ruining a thing they love. And they win, because I don't care enough to keep fighting about this.

Players have presented their ideas, and the idea many have chosen is to leave fishing as it is and not make it a chore by adding extra steps. Those that do love it as it is, or even just tolerate it, don't see making it more complicated as progress.

There has been a trend on the forums of making everything more difficult because it would supposedly be more fun, but for many it would have the opposite effect. Some things are better just left as they are.

Yeah. More nitnoidy anything isn't going to be "more fun" for me. There's almost nothing about this game that has been proposed to change that would make it more fun for me at all. The one thing I am finding "more fun" these days is the addition of Golden Pursuits. I don't get all of them done (because I don't do group content) but this time I will get 8 of them, and have fun doing it.

The conversation revolved around the fact that many players just do not want more complicated fishing. Just like many players do not want ToT NPCs to be more difficult, or Overland.

Rejecting a suggestion is not saying the presenter shouldn't ask for content changes. But players can't expect options to be implemented for all the content they want changed to their personal preference.

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

<snipped for brevity>

I don't see that as an indication that people enjoy fishing and don't wish to see change. More like people don't trust ZOS to make things optional.

Well.... exactly this. Though for me, fishing as is IS fun, though I am probably a minority as usual.

I don't think most players enjoy fishing. But, I wouldn't want ZOS to do something that removes the enjoyment from the people who do, regardless if the population is seemingly pretty small. I get the fear of how ZOS handles things. They have been heavy handed in the past.

I just don't think that's on us as players. I think being able to engage in activities in multiple different ways generally makes activities more immersive, fun, and interesting to a bigger group of people. And I think live services games should refine their systems for constant improvements. Single player games are static by nature but the beauty of a live service game is that it can change.

I think about changes like golden pursuits, which seems to be feedback about the game lacking variety in the way rewards are earned and needing more options, and think they are a good thing when done right.

I generally don't fish, but am using this event to do it all in a go. It's working wonderfully........except for Summerset foul. I know I'm piling on, but ZoS, why in all that's unholy do you have ~140 ocean spots and only 12 foul? Now, before someone says "Hew's Bane is worse since it only has 9 foul", let me add the following: I did Hew's Bane in under 30 minutes on 2 accounts, while in running around Summerset for over 2 hours I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN A FUNCTIONING FOUL POOL!!! Maybe increase the number of foul, or do something about the respawn rate 'cause.....damn.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Re: Optional: Still waiting to hear how the "fun fishing" people would exist in the same instance as the "boring fishing" people.

I gave some ideas but they've been lost in the broader discussion.

Something like different fishing rods that players can equip to catch different fish from the same fishing spots, as one example. Different rods may have slightly different loot but are also harder. I've seen that done before and I don't see why it would be impossible to do here. If you're not interested in it just don't equip that rod and continue to do the regular fishing.

Or a fishing boat you can take out to an instanced location and have fishing work different there.

Stuff like that.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

What I did was save foul and river for last. Then I went down to that section on the south side where the river opens up to the ocean with a cluster of foul spots in between. I'd run a little ways upriver, fish a river hole, then run down to the foul area and see if that spawned any foul holes. Since a hole only spawns when another hole elsewhere in the zone empties, fishing two types of hole at once increases the chances that each will spawn.

I did that with the lake/river sets that are in the central areas, but since there's only a single foul on the coast in the south, I figured I'd just do what I do in every region: Find a small cluster of them and run around until one spawns. Never did spawn while I tried that, so instead I'd go to one cluster, when nothing going on, port to another, rinse/repeat. I was able to get to every foul hole in the region in under 5 minutes, but statistical probability being what it is, it's conceivable that I was just unlucky. Once I had been "unlucky" doing this for a couple of hours, and never even seeing an active foul fishing hole, I gave up. I'll circle back later in the event, but that's just not great for players.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Re: Optional: Still waiting to hear how the "fun fishing" people would exist in the same instance as the "boring fishing" people.

I gave some ideas but they've been lost in the broader discussion.

Something like different fishing rods that players can equip to catch different fish from the same fishing spots, as one example. Different rods may have slightly different loot but are also harder. I've seen that done before and I don't see why it would be impossible to do here. If you're not interested in it just don't equip that rod and continue to do the regular fishing.

Or a fishing boat you can take out to an instanced location and have fishing work different there.

Stuff like that.

That doesn't answer my questions at all. I'm not asking what the toggle switch for "optional" looks like. I'm asking how "optional" can exist in the same world as "doesn't use the option."

Can "fun fishers" fish at the same hole at the same time as a "boring fisher" or not? If yes, does the "fun fisher" get fewer casts before the "boring fisher" because "boring fishing" is faster than a mini-game? Or does the "boring fisher" have to stand there and wait for the "fun fisher" to finish catching their fish before anyone can cast again? Etc.

The fact that I've had to ask the same question the same way three different times now tells me that the "fun fisher" advocates aren't at all interested in actually changing the system, just fantasizing about their (probably impossible) perfect world.

Taril wrote: »

What's fishing like in Stardew Valley? I have absolutely no idea. I've never played the game. Nor has any details on what the fishing mechanics of the game been provided. So... What is there for me to discuss?

Since none of the "fun fishing" proponents were willing to describe it, I looked it up. It looks like a total nightmare, tbh, and I see why one of the most popular mods removes it entirely.

Here's how it works:

1. You cast your line.

2. You wait.

3. Eventually (random timer, influenced by bait, environment conditions, etc.), a fish bites. You push a button to hook it.

4. A mini-game appears. The mini-game is a vertical slider-bar. The fish moves up and down in this bar.

5. Rapidly tapping a button moves a green catch-zone up the bar. Slow tapping lets it move slowly down the bar. Releasing the button drops it to the bottom (where it bounces before settling, which adds to the nightmare).

6. Easy fish mostly stay in one spot, or move very little. Difficult fish zip up and down randomly at amazing speeds.

7. When your catch zone is on the fish, the timer bar starts to fill. The bar must fill completely to catch the fish.

8. Whenever your catch zone is not on the fish, the timer bar starts to run out. If the timer bar runs out, you lose the fish and start over from 1.

I strongly suspect that the "fun fishing" folks haven't specified the nature of the Stardew Valley system because they know we'd immediately be like "OH UGH, HECK NO" when we heard what it actually entails.


Edit: This is the system being suggested:
[Edit 2: finding a better video; all of them seem to involve some amount of cussing]
[Edit 3: Here we go: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FrQuAaZpx08 ]

spartaxoxo wrote: »

For example, basic fisher gets 2 casts for every 1 of the upgraded rod. But, the fish is fatter for the upgraded rod, so it has loot similar in quality to pulling 2 casts.

That's how these things generally work in other games?

I wouldn't know, I don't fish in other games.

You think that the "fun fishers" wouldn't complain that they get half as many chances to catch the achievement fish than "boring fishers"? Or are we revamping the whole fishing achievement system, too?