[FISHING] I'm going to get so much hate for this, but.

Vonnegut2506 · January 26

I said fishing system. If you actually try to fish manually in Black Desert, it is a ridiculous system of hit the spacebar and still catch nothing. I also find it funny to be called a modern generation of gamers, so thank you for that. I have surgery scars older than most modern generation of gamers. I guess I don't find hitting E, waiting then hitting E again to be the pinnacle of game play that some others do.

Tandor · January 26

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

I said fishing system. If you actually try to fish manually in Black Desert, it is a ridiculous system of hit the spacebar and still catch nothing. I also find it funny to be called a modern generation of gamers, so thank you for that. I have surgery scars older than most modern generation of gamers. I guess I don't find hitting E, waiting then hitting E again to be the pinnacle of game play that some others do.

Just to clarify, "the modern generation of gamers" isn't a reference to the age of gamers today, it's a reference to those who are gamers today (and therefore includes both me and my grandson who play ESO dungeons together, so you're not alone in your age group

). Increasingly in recent years players of all ages have lost the approach that early gamers in the first generation of MMOs had, we/they revelled in playing the game and didn't constantly clamour for shortcuts and dumbing down as some do today. There doesn't seem to be the same universal enjoyment of the games that there used to be, and I make no apologies for finding that rather sad.

Vonnegut2506 · January 26

Again, what is to enjoy about hitting E, waiting some random length of time then hitting E again? I'm not sure how to make fishing more fun in this game, but I support the post creator wondering if it has to be so terrible. After reading posts by older gamers, I don't think the newer players are necessarily lazy or want everything handed to them. I think we older gamers were just way more willing to put up with bad game design due to limited choices.

Tandor · January 26

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Again, what is to enjoy about hitting E, waiting some random length of time then hitting E again?

I can only speak for myself, but I find fishing in ESO relaxing as an occasional but regular side pastime, but certainly don't consider it as a pinnacle of game play, rather it provides a welcome break from those activities that do merit that description.

TaSheen · January 26

Tandor wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Again, what is to enjoy about hitting E, waiting some random length of time then hitting E again?

I can only speak for myself, but I find fishing in ESO relaxing as an occasional but regular side pastime, but certainly don't consider it as a pinnacle of game play, rather it provides a welcome break from those activities that do merit that description.

Yah, me too. I fish when I just want to stay in game, enjoy the ambience, look at the scenery.... I love it because it's relaxing, as NOTHING in my RL is right now....

spartaxoxo · January 26

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Again, what is to enjoy about hitting E, waiting some random length of time then hitting E again? I'm not sure how to make fishing more fun in this game, but I support the post creator wondering if it has to be so terrible. After reading posts by older gamers, I don't think the newer players are necessarily lazy or want everything handed to them. I think we older gamers were just way more willing to put up with bad game design due to limited choices.

Agree. I'm not an older gamer in the sense of age. I'm in my 30s. Certainly much older than the children that populate many games but not a grandparent. But I do remember that generation of games because I grew up on them. I think there's a lot of stuff that phased out of popularity because it was poorly designed because it was all new. As technology improved things that didn't really add a lot in gameplay value became simpler. And gameplay that was rote became more complex to aide in immersion.

A lot of older games are still good despite these things. But, I think modern game design is generally better and that it's not a wonder these games appeal to far more people as a result.

I don't want to avoid gameplay. On the contrary, I feel like having to fuss with menus too much (as an example) gets in the way of the gameplay.

ESO went into development at an older generation of games and fishing is one of those things that shows its age most. I would like to see fishing updated to something more interesting. But I'm fine with it being optional for those that enjoy the current version.

disky · January 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

disky wrote: »

the idea that fishing is incredibly mindless and boring

I need Roe for my PvP food. I can't stand fishing either but like, isn't this exactly why people like it? I've never been forced to engage with fishing, I can just buy Roe with gold. This is how minigames should be. 100% optional.

My point is that I want to engage with fishing in this game but it's just not fun to do, ZOS could make it more enjoyable, (for me alone, I guess) in whatever form it may take, be it a new idea or cribbed from one of the many other games that have enjoyable fishing. You're right though, it does seem like people prefer their fishing to be as mindless as it can be.

disky · January 27

Tandor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand. If someone finds so much of this game to be boring and lacking then what exactly is bringing them here instead of to a game that already meets their preferences?

A lifetime of love for TES, and a love of this game, in general. It is possible to love an imperfect thing, and seek to improve upon it.

Yup. I mostly love this game or I wouldn't be here. I especially love the lore. I've been playing Elder Scrolls games for most of my life. I like TES games. It doesn't mean I think their games are perfect though.

Fishing is something I think they could improve on. Criticism isn't hate. Criticism isn't an attack. The opposite of loving a game isn't critique, it's indifference.

I completely agree that fishing could be improved on, but I do think it's incumbent on those who call for improvements to say what changes they'd like to see - and not just by listing a series of other games that do it differently, but by detailing how their favoured changes could be introduced.

It really isn't, for two reasons: If I provide a specific pitch, it's going to receive as much criticism as just saying that I'd like fishing to be better, and more importantly, ZOS will decide on what they want to do anyway. We all know that. There are a million ways to make a fun fishing minigame, I'm open to any of them, and I feel like it's a bit silly to have such a strong opinion about the particulars when just about anything would be better than what we have.

disky · January 27

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Honestly, I feel that right now this falls into the category of what I like to call scope creep or out of scope for what eso really needs.

Sure new fishing mechanics can be fun and less mindless... but exactly how much of the game involves that activity? and how much of the rest of the game needs help?

You don't fix an overheating cpu problem by slapping some rgb lights to your computer, you work on why it's overheating. Other items have priority, then comes rhe bling and yes a fishing enhancement would be being.

Also, one game doesn't have to have everything, sometimes less is more.

3. "This would be a waste of development time/money/resources" - This is the opinion of anyone who doesn't think a particular feature would suit them. It's subjective.

disky · January 27

TaSheen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Again, what is to enjoy about hitting E, waiting some random length of time then hitting E again?

I can only speak for myself, but I find fishing in ESO relaxing as an occasional but regular side pastime, but certainly don't consider it as a pinnacle of game play, rather it provides a welcome break from those activities that do merit that description.

Yah, me too. I fish when I just want to stay in game, enjoy the ambience, look at the scenery.... I love it because it's relaxing, as NOTHING in my RL is right now....

It's just that I'm here to play a game. If I want to do nothing, I stop playing the game and do nothing. I understand your interest in relaxing but fishing is ostensibly an activity, though in reality, it's a non-activity, and there are a lot of ways to make it more involving/fun. I'm up for anything that does.

spartaxoxo · January 27

Current fishing is an activity. A mindless cookie clicker activity but an activity all the same. Sometimes mindless is nice and relaxing.

disky · January 27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Current fishing is an activity. A mindless cookie clicker activity but an activity all the same. Sometimes mindless is nice and relaxing.

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

spartaxoxo · January 27

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Current fishing is an activity. A mindless cookie clicker activity but an activity all the same. Sometimes mindless is nice and relaxing.

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

That's what a cookie clicker is. It's a game for idle play. Mindless games can be relaxing to some people. It's fine if it's not for you. I don't generally enjoy fishing in this game either and just set my controller down where I can feel or hear it vibrate and do other stuff while it's going. Sometimes it's fun as a social activity but the fun in that is coming from my guild mates. But, nevertheless it is an activity. It's not just clicking a button and you get the fish like an alchemy ingredient. It is has very simple mechanics that you actually have to follow and pay attention to. And those are what makes it enjoyable to the people who like it.

disky · January 27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Current fishing is an activity. A mindless cookie clicker activity but an activity all the same. Sometimes mindless is nice and relaxing.

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

That's what a cookie clicker is. It's a game for idle play. Mindless games can be relaxing to some people. It's fine if it's not for you. I don't generally enjoy fishing in this game either and just set my controller down where I can feel or hear it vibrate and do other stuff while it's going. Sometimes it's fun as a social activity but the fun in that is coming from my guild mates. But, nevertheless it is an activity. It's not just clicking a button and you get the fish like an alchemy ingredient. It is has very simple mechanics that you actually have to follow and pay attention to. And those are what makes it enjoyable to the people who like it.

It's an inactive activity. Fair enough.

ghastley · January 27

I have always regarded fishing as another form of resource gathering, like digging ores, or chopping wood. You need fish, or perfect roe, you go gather some. It doesn't need to be a mini-game, which is one reason the holes now tell you what bait they want.

Tandor · January 27

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Current fishing is an activity. A mindless cookie clicker activity but an activity all the same. Sometimes mindless is nice and relaxing.

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

You literally wait, and then you press a button? Hey, that sounds just like Trials

!

disky · January 27

ghastley wrote: »

I have always regarded fishing as another form of resource gathering, like digging ores, or chopping wood. You need fish, or perfect roe, you go gather some. It doesn't need to be a mini-game, which is one reason the holes now tell you what bait they want.

If that's the case then it shouldn't need to take as long as it does.

TheMajority · January 27

leave it alone

like don't even put in stardew fishing, stardew fishing is the worst, like everyone installs the mod to get rid of the fishing mini game in stardew for a reason

people literally mod it out of stardew to be more like eso simple and easy, lol

SilverBride · January 27

disky wrote: »

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

What kind of skill should fishing require? What kind of thought?

There is a reason there is a lot of "Retired, gone fishing" merchandise for sale. It's the ultimate mindless do nothing but relax activity. Why should it be any different here?

disky · January 27

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

What kind of skill should fishing require? What kind of thought?

There is a reason there is a lot of "Retired, gone fishing" merchandise for sale. It's the ultimate mindless do nothing but relax activity. Why should it be any different here?

Because this is a game. Plenty of people find fishing relaxing, that doesn't mean it doesn't have far more thought and skill involved when compared to "wait, press button, receive reward". If it truly is nothing more than a method of resource collecting like someone suggested, then make it that simple and be done with it, but if it's a full-fledged activity, I would like for it to be a little more involved. And it can be. There are numerous valid implementations that are fun to do.

Sailor_Palutena · January 27

How to fix ESO fishing:

Add a fish pool at every 50-100mts.

I went to fish in Auridon yesterday. I went on foot from Vulkel Guard up to North Point and didn't find a SINGLE POOL at the entire eastern shore.

disky · January 27

TheMajority wrote: »

leave it alone

like don't even put in stardew fishing, stardew fishing is the worst, like everyone installs the mod to get rid of the fishing mini game in stardew for a reason

people literally mod it out of stardew to be more like eso simple and easy, lol

Well, I happen to be one of the people who like fishing in Stardew. While some people mod it out, I would bet that the majority of players stick it out, learn it, and enjoy it.

SilverBride · January 27

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

In that it is presented as one, but you aren't actually active. You literally wait, and then you press a button. There is no skill or thought involved. It's something that exists for the purpose of wasting time, and that might be something the player is fine with, but that is all it is.

What kind of skill should fishing require? What kind of thought?

There is a reason there is a lot of "Retired, gone fishing" merchandise for sale. It's the ultimate mindless do nothing but relax activity. Why should it be any different here?

Because this is a game. Plenty of people find fishing relaxing, that doesn't mean it doesn't have far more thought and skill involved when compared to "wait, press button, receive reward". If it truly is nothing more than a method of resource collecting like someone suggested, then make it that simple and be done with it, but if it's a full-fledged activity, I would like for it to be a little more involved. And it can be. There are numerous valid implementations that are fun to do.

Fun for who? Fishing isn't an activity players go to when they are looking for excitement.

Complicating a side activity such as fishing will just drive even more players away from participating in it. Just like over complicating any content will push players away.

spartaxoxo · January 27

Fishing is used by so few people that I think that updates to make it more interesting would bring people in rather than drive them out. I think that's especially the case if it's optional as explicitly requested by the OP

The majority of players don't fish, I imagine

SilverBride · January 27

How would they even implement an optional fishing mode? A fishing toggle? A fishing hard mode scroll? A separate veteran fishing instance?

Fishing isn't a major game system that players have often asked to be made more exciting. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it requested before.

I frankly do not believe this will ever become a priority.

spartaxoxo · January 27

SilverBride wrote: »

How would they even implement an optional fishing mode? A fishing toggle? A fishing hard mode scroll? A separate veteran fishing instance?

Fishing isn't a major game system that players have often asked to be made more exciting. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it requested before.

I frankly do not believe this will ever become a priority.

Fishing poles that enable you to capture different types of fish with different mechanics.

Fishing boats that take you out to instanced mini games.

A fishing NPC that lets you take on fishing challenges using various stuff.

This is hardly the first or only thread I've seen complain about fishing. I've seen them from time to time. I think most players are indifferent towards fishing.

thorwyn · January 27

I never really spent too much time fishing, because I find it boring and non-rewarding. Even the addition of mini games as suggested by OP would not change that, so I'm indifferent about it.

However, I would like to add one thought to the discussion that's nagging on me each time I read the forum. Whenever someone is proposing a change to the game, there is an impressively high chance that they will go defensive and play the "but it would just be optional" card at some point. On the surface, "optional" is a one-size-fits-all argument, designed to eliminate any tension between different opinions, but in reality, it is just a passive aggressive attempt at protecting the proposed changes against critical arguments and make each and every idea equally valid, regardless how absurd it may be. "I want flying penguins with rocket launchers? Don't like it? Switch it off!". See? Now YOU are the one to blame if you don't like the change.

While options sound nice and dandy in theory, they can potentially create a matrix of decisions, especially when each and every minor aspect of the game is drowned in more choices and selections than a tuna sandwich at Subways. Whenever ZOS adds a new feature or a QoL improvement of some sorts, a good portion of the player base is not (and will never be) even aware of the additions. Another huge part of the players just don't care and pick whatever is the default option. And a small minority of people are actually using the feature, sometimes complaining about how few people are using the feature. And you think that an option for an activity like fishing would make a difference? Think about extended group finder, think about the "what's that strange icon over my head" mystery and the list goes on.

So my point is: if you propose changes to the game, defend your ideas, convince the community and don't try to bail out from the discussion by using the but-it's-optional trope. It's not helpful.
Just to make this clear, this little rant is not meant to be against OP and his/her ideas.

katanagirl1 · January 27

disky wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing posts about sweeping changes to game systems that have been in place for 10 years, especially ones saying they are “too easy”. So many threads wanting to completely change overland, ToT, and now fishing to be more hardcore, somehow without ruining it for the rest of us with “toggles” for everything. I think more than one of those threads was from OP in fact.

I would much rather the dev time be used to give us new stuff instead.

I don't need "hardcore" fishing, I would simply like something that isn't just "press button". Just because something has been a certain way for a long time, that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved, and I think that if the game doesn't take steps to evolve it will definitely not continue to remain popular. It's clear that ZOS understands this based on what was discussed in their letter, and I applaud that new energy. There is so much negativity with regard to anything new in this forum. It's stifling and I wish people were more positive.

I think the thread you're referring to was regarding massive/ultimate attack indicators (I remember your responses), and I stand by my defense of that idea. I think it still holds a lot of value. Now that you mention it, that thread is the very reason I wrote my OP for this one the way that I did. Oh, and I wrote one about holding/storing staves that popped off for a while which you may also have been quite negative about. I still don't understand why that one got so much hate.

OH! And also, yes, I want ToT NPC AI to be tougher on Expert because it's Expert and it makes sense for Expert to be challenging when compared to lower difficulties, so I made a thread about that. I'm sure you hated that one too.

Anyway, this is about fishing.

I was thinking about the harder expert npcs in ToT specifically. Problem with ToT is someone complained that the Novice npcs were too easy so they bumped them up instead. Point is, there is a lot about the game that you want changed to suit you. Not little tweaks either, but some major changes to make this game more like other games. There has to be a justifiable reason to make major changes, usually when something doesn’t work well or when something small might make it work better. A lot of us are saying that fishing works fine for us. It’s not just press a button every few seconds, it’s pressing the button at the right time. I don’t think you PC players get that if you don’t play with a controller, so you spam the button.

I just feel like requests like this are made because people want the game to be changed to fit them instead of learning the game and understanding how to play it effectively instead. That’s not fair to the rest of us.

disky · January 27

thorwyn wrote: »

I never really spent too much time fishing, because I find it boring and non-rewarding. Even the addition of mini games as suggested by OP would not change that, so I'm indifferent about it.

However, I would like to add one thought to the discussion that's nagging on me each time I read the forum. Whenever someone is proposing a change to the game, there is an impressively high chance that they will go defensive and play the "but it would just be optional" card at some point. On the surface, "optional" is a one-size-fits-all argument, designed to eliminate any tension between different opinions, but in reality, it is just a passive aggressive attempt at protecting the proposed changes against critical arguments and make each and every idea equally valid, regardless how absurd it may be. "I want flying penguins with rocket launchers? Don't like it? Switch it off!". See? Now YOU are the one to blame if you don't like the change.

While options sound nice and dandy in theory, they can potentially create a matrix of decisions, especially when each and every minor aspect of the game is drowned in more choices and selections than a tuna sandwich at Subways. Whenever ZOS adds a new feature or a QoL improvement of some sorts, a good portion of the player base is not (and will never be) even aware of the additions. Another huge part of the players just don't care and pick whatever is the default option. And a small minority of people are actually using the feature, sometimes complaining about how few people are using the feature. And you think that an option for an activity like fishing would make a difference? Think about extended group finder, think about the "what's that strange icon over my head" mystery and the list goes on.

So my point is: if you propose changes to the game, defend your ideas, convince the community and don't try to bail out from the discussion by using the but-it's-optional trope. It's not helpful.
Just to make this clear, this little rant is not meant to be against OP and his/her ideas.

Because it's the only possible way there is to get anything past the wall of negativity on this forum. Every single time I present something it's just endless hate. I'm trying to at least give people a way in to considering possibilities without their minds shutting down and instantly hating it. This forum is extremely conservative.

I know you're in the overland thread and I have to say that it makes the most sense there by far, and that is where I spend most of my time discussing an optional feature, but the fact is that I don't really think this should be optional. If it has to be, that's fine, but frankly I've tried making other suggestions here and while there have been some nice, constructive comments in this thread, it's always primarily negativity, and I'm just tired of the endless fight to defend an idea. I guess I'll just stop, which sucks, because I think there are a lot of ways this game could improve and I'd like to talk about them without needing to consider whether or not I want to wade into the kind of discussion we're having now.

spartaxoxo · January 27

disky wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

I never really spent too much time fishing, because I find it boring and non-rewarding. Even the addition of mini games as suggested by OP would not change that, so I'm indifferent about it.

However, I would like to add one thought to the discussion that's nagging on me each time I read the forum. Whenever someone is proposing a change to the game, there is an impressively high chance that they will go defensive and play the "but it would just be optional" card at some point. On the surface, "optional" is a one-size-fits-all argument, designed to eliminate any tension between different opinions, but in reality, it is just a passive aggressive attempt at protecting the proposed changes against critical arguments and make each and every idea equally valid, regardless how absurd it may be. "I want flying penguins with rocket launchers? Don't like it? Switch it off!". See? Now YOU are the one to blame if you don't like the change.

While options sound nice and dandy in theory, they can potentially create a matrix of decisions, especially when each and every minor aspect of the game is drowned in more choices and selections than a tuna sandwich at Subways. Whenever ZOS adds a new feature or a QoL improvement of some sorts, a good portion of the player base is not (and will never be) even aware of the additions. Another huge part of the players just don't care and pick whatever is the default option. And a small minority of people are actually using the feature, sometimes complaining about how few people are using the feature. And you think that an option for an activity like fishing would make a difference? Think about extended group finder, think about the "what's that strange icon over my head" mystery and the list goes on.

So my point is: if you propose changes to the game, defend your ideas, convince the community and don't try to bail out from the discussion by using the but-it's-optional trope. It's not helpful.
Just to make this clear, this little rant is not meant to be against OP and his/her ideas.

Because it's the only possible way there is to get anything past the wall of negativity on this forum. Every single time I present something it's just endless hate. I'm trying to at least give people a way in to considering possibilities without their minds shutting down and instantly hating it. This forum is extremely conservative.

I know you're in the overland thread and I have to say that it makes the most sense there by far, and that is where I spend most of my time discussing an optional feature, but the fact is that I don't really think this should be optional. If it has to be, that's fine, but frankly I've tried making other suggestions here and while there have been some nice, constructive comments in this thread, it's always primarily negativity, and I'm just tired of the endless fight to defend an idea. I guess I'll just stop, which sucks, because I think there are a lot of ways this game could improve and I'd like to talk about them without needing to consider whether or not I want to wade into the kind of discussion we're having now.

Yeah. I actually think it's the opposite of avoiding criticism or feedback specific to your idea. It's the only way to get feedback or criticism specific to your idea.

Otherwise all the comments are "Nothing should ever change. It's good because I like it. I like it because it's good." And there is absolutely no feedback specific to the idea itself. It sometimes feels like we aren't playing a live service game which is a genre of game that makes improvements on existing systems all the time.

Making many improvements opt in allows for people who enjoy something as it currently to continue to enjoy it. And while I understand ZOS often doesn't take that route, that's not on the players giving the feedback. A post isn't going to automatically change anything.

Edit

Although to be fair OP, if the only thing to discuss is "I don't like it," there's really not much else to say beyond "I like it" or "I don't."