if only we had some sort of representatives... perhaps for each class or maybe each game mode (Overland, dungeons, trials, progression, pvp, etc). And maybe these representatives had communities, but served as a tie in to communicate with zos more effectively.... something like... a class representative... man... that would be great, if only we could implement something like that.... oh wait...

But seriously, I get that this test is about 'performance' but if the end result is a game no one wants, its pointless. The only way this goes anywhere good is if feedback is seriously listened to and considered. not just ignored as they bullheadedly charge forward with the idea from 2 years ago that landed on the table today.

someone earlier commented that it sounds like most players issue with this test is a distrust of ZOS to carry this out effectively, and that is exactly right. I get that the forums are a minority of players, probably 70% of the player base doesnt even know there are forums. But there are still a ton of voices expressing the same concern that is born from years of ZOS basically ignoring feedback because they have their 5 year plan.

End of the day, they will do whatever they want to do. I hope this test leads to amazing findings and a fantastic new cyrodiil, I truly do, because no other game quite captures what cyrodiil pvp has the potential to be. I just fear that they will hold their graph upside down while analyzing results and come to the wrong conclusions, and give us a mobile app version of cyrodiil with 1 button combat instead of the depth we currently could have.

Sluggy wrote: »

Why use an underwhelming skill with little-to-no side effects when you can not use it until your proc set is off cooldown?

Two of the most hated specs in PvP right now, MagSorc and Acuity Warden, both prefer stat sets (although Acuity in practice behaves like a degenerate flat value proc set, while also enabling an uninteractive low apm playstyle).

Sluggy wrote: »

I swear roll my eyes and groan every time I read the words 'gain a stack' anymore. lol

+1 that recent set design has felt overengineered. Complexity just for the sake of complexity. I like the simple blessing/curse design of that new 100k pen set, and how it doesn't take a novel to explain what it does.

kiwi_tea wrote: »

It's nice to have a build that really does compensate for Aussie ping relatively well, anyway. Just needs tuning down on its survivability.

That's totally fair, it's good to have specs in the game that can work for high ping players.

After getting a peek at the Vengeance skills...

While I, again, understand they claim this to be just a test, Im seeing that they put in way too much effort into these vengeance skills, and with the history of this company, it just makes me feel even more confident that this is the ultimate direction they are going.
---
Some thoughts:

I dont mind PVP having PVP specific skills, as this would make balancing easier, in theory, more on that later. While I actually do like "SOME" of the new skills, I think a lot of them are lacking utility in current state and despite all the people touting "oh you wont be able to rely on proc sets anymore, gonna have to actually get skill" - as someone who generally plays without free damage proc sets on anything but a ganker, I see some class kits desperately lacking important buffs, which means youll need groups to get them, which means a couple things. 1- your 1vX'ers will be forced to be 2V's or Xv's , and if you already hated dealing with them itll only be worse. 2-If you were a 1vX'er, now you likely will need a comped group to a degree for buffs, which for some, really removes the thrill. 3- lacking combo's and pressure with skills that are now a dedicated 'just a buff' or 'just damage' it seems like in order to really kill any competent player, you will need to group them down or battle of attrition.

They are removing Battlespirit for the test and giving everyone 70k HP (but everyone takes PVE damage). This seems counterproductive as Battlespirit was the tool to separate PVE and PVP. Getting rid of it seems to suggest they think they can balance PVP without it. Which to me just screams more years of Sledgehammering skills into uselessness and Buffing others in an attempt to "Balance" with minimal idea of what this new pvp monstrosity theyre creating needs, because PVP playtesting from Dev side seems minimal, and PVP player feedback is generally not considered in any timely fashion.

Adding cooldowns to skills.... What? Okay, I get that its an attempt to limit powerful skills.... losing control over how and when to use them is not great. I can jump into any well developed Tab target game if I wanted that, and hit my rotation mindlessly for hours. ESO has the freedom to use skills as needed, pairing down not just the utility but the timing of skills removes the ability to adapt to situations, and unpredictable situations are half the thrill of PVP. This will only lead to less engaging gameplay. This isnt meant to be a phone game.

Basically everything has at most a target limit of 3 players. I don't know how I feel about that yet, but I think I see it as more of a downside than an upside, as someone who generally fights outnumbered.

If they do go this ultra trimmed down cyrodiil route, How will sets tie into it? By trimming down cyro, you are removing build versatility. While many people see this as 'HAHA NO MORE PROC CHEESE FOR YOU" they dont think about the other side of the coin: you know how many players Ive helped make one bar builds because they physically or mentally cannot do 2 bars? or how many people play tanks because they enjoy taking part in the action but arent so fast reacting anymore? Without sets, these playstyles do become obsolete. In order to reintroduce these, basically entire sets now need to be rebalanced, furthering the endeavor of this cyro revamp to levels I really dont see ZOS going through with. Build versatility is what makes this game interesting, and I just dont see a scenario that this pans out well, unless ZOS actually goes through with appropriate changes and balancing, which I doubt would happen. But a lot of this just seems half baked already, even from a testing standpoint.
---

I probably have more thoughts about this, but work is calling, so I'll probably ramble later. I will close this with saying that I do genuinely hope ZOS pulls through and makes something amazing and properly tests and balances things and everything is sunshine and rainbows. Their history just shows this is an unlikely scenario.

Ah, answered my own question. I see this week's PTS has it available for review. Overall I don't even mind the idea on paper but it really sounds like the whole thing is half-baked like a college student writing their term paper a few hours before turn in time or something. If it were a simple case of them throwing together an MVP just to get a feel for what works and what doesn't I'd say that was actually a good thing. Fast turnarounds for iteration are absolutely the best way to develop games. But given the track record of ZoS over the last six years I find it hard to believe there will be much, if any, actual followup.

The only thing that really truly concerns me is cooldowns. They need to go. That is THE selling point of ESO's combat system. Why the hell would anyone ever considering throwing out their USP like that is beyond me. Maybe Mario would be better off if he couldn't jump? Maybe Sonic should only be able to do leisurely strolls? Maybe ESO combat should have per-skill cooldowns?

Just_Attivi wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

@Just_Attivi

Erm, wow. That stuff you mentioned is all real? Not just supposition? I assume there's been some streams covering it or something? I really haven't been paying that much attention because I was taking a wait-and-see approach before reinstalling.

I agree with your assessment about the effort they've put in. I've hinted at it myself in a few posts (maybe even this one? I can't remember) I was just avoiding saying it out loud due to the excessive censorship lately. But the details you've said are completely scorched earth beyond a level even my jaded attitude would imagine. Assuming that's the case, I'd say there's not much left to post here. I mean on the PvP/Combat forums in general. At that point everything we know and like about ESO's PvP combat is gone. This is actually an entirely different game at this point. The ESO we've been playing for a decade is officially shutdown after this 'test' goes live.

yea, obviously we dont know what they will do in the future, but the track records make me think what i think lol. I know this is a "Test" but I can see this becoming the quick fix to get less "wah wah wah" from PVP'ers in the future, and if that is the route they go... yea, I dont see anyone who actually enjoys PVP staying.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and I hope this test helps them find out how to improve performance and keep what we all love (and maybe improve the things we dont love, like excessive heal/shield stacking lol). I agree that this step is a great FIRST step in diagnosing the problems, my doubts are with them carrying out appropriate steps beyond this, and again, I really want to be proven wrong on this. (also, still... midyear mayhem performance is always radically better than 'normal' despite being pop locked... just saying... maybe a point to look at, ZOS)

I have faith in the future. Why they will not know what they are doing? After 10 years we keep on fighting.

unless they are literally rewriting all code from scratch and pts is v0.0.1 i dont see it resulting in anything id waste a minute playing. less room for skill expression than your average mobile game.

Just_Attivi wrote: »

yea, obviously we dont know what they will do in the future, but the track records make me think what i think lol. I know this is a "Test" but I can see this becoming the quick fix to get less "wah wah wah" from PVP'ers in the future, and if that is the route they go... yea, I dont see anyone who actually enjoys PVP staying.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and I hope this test helps them find out how to improve performance and keep what we all love (and maybe improve the things we dont love, like excessive heal/shield stacking lol). I agree that this step is a great FIRST step in diagnosing the problems, my doubts are with them carrying out appropriate steps beyond this, and again, I really want to be proven wrong on this. (also, still... midyear mayhem performance is always radically better than 'normal' despite being pop locked... just saying... maybe a point to look at, ZOS)

Agreed. Like I said, on paper this is a great idea! If they were to make iterative changes and release them, say, once a month and work with feedback and their own vision. Start with a baseline and keep iterating rapidly to see what works and what flops. You know, the way a game development company would develop a game.

But I'm a believer in watching what people do, not what they say they are doing. And the track record ain't looking too hot. There's a problem in the games industry that they want to sell SaaS but they forget that once you go 'live' like that you have a living breathing product and it mandates that you work with the people you are providing. It's no longer a case of making one giant thing in secrecy and and releasing it into the light of the world in one big event.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort. Many of the skills are just old versions or current versions with parts deleted.

The battlespirit is another layer that is nolonger needed if pvp has its own skill versions. Keeping it would just be unnecessary bloat and rounding calculations.

Going by their track record this is far more than they are usually willing to do. That's a good thing in some ways but also a pretty good indication of where their goals are set.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Cooldowns are a sus way of limiting skills. Once the test happens live make sure to voice and die for this opinion. Ramping costs or higher costs are a better option for even better performance.

Agreed 100%.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Target limit is fine. Even in today's 1vX it is more like dueling against 10 players. Most classes other than acuity warden basically only take down 1-3 targets at a time. Big fear is they add back in Uncapped aoe heals and cross heals.

I was concerned at first. Don't we all love those epic moments where we are in a tight siege and suddenly we get that miracle cleave-into-VD combo? But really, how often does that happen these days? Between lag and defenses? The more I think about it the more I like it. Better performance in general is a worthwhile goal for this sacrifice. And it makes me feel like skills like dswing can actually be used in a siege fight effectively again.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The game was far more popular in the early days which vengeance is very similar to combat wise. Combat is clear and actions are meaningful. Its like playing super smash bros with items turned off vs turned on. They already stated that a more final vision would include sets, mundus, enchants, etc. Just dont expect skills to do an aoe+dot+gap close+buff+debuff+ground affect+ do your dishes.......etc.

Agree again. Even though this would be the death of PvP as we currently know it, I don't really mind that much. It's already near-dead as it is. I'd rather see *something* that encourages more players to join at this point. Even if I end up hating it and moving on I'm fine with that by now. I haven't been the target audience in over half a decade at this point. What do I have to lose? I see this as a potential way to reinvigorate it for more people. And if I look at it as an entirely new game that is similar to ESO well, isn't that what I've been looking for as a replacement to ESO for a while now?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The dynamic of what affects your output as a player will finally be more dependent on which skills you cast instead of what dlc you buy and slot. Seriously think about your output as a player. How much of your damage is from procs or passive buffs? Most skills now a days interact with 5-10 passive buffs instead of scaling mainly off your chosen stats. Inevitably pvp players will prefer the winning by skill instead of by default.

This probably isn't a popular opinion but when I came back last spring I noticed a very rapid change in power discrepancy when scribing started to become commonplace in Cyrodiil. The gap is larger than most would want to admit. Literally any style of play or build I had previously been successful with, kdrs of 10:1 or occasionally 20:1, had dropped to barely 2:1 or lower in just a matter of weeks. I have zero doubt that ZoS will try to integrate that stuff back in since it's a massive source of income for them and PvP is a massive incentive to have it. But for now I'll consider it a blessing if the field is leveled.

Overall I was shocked at the range of changes but now that I've had to time to stew with it I'm actually looking forward to seeing how it plays out. It's the newest and most exciting thing to happen to PvP in nearly half a decade now. There's really nothing to lose at this point so I'm just going to embrace it. The very worst they can do is abandon it, leave it to fester, provide no meaningful updates for years to come, allow imbalance and performance issues to crumble its foundations... *looks around*


EDIT: Omg what is the absolute state of the quoting tools in the forum. Had to sort all of that crap out.

I think some key points were missed when I was quoted.
---
But the TL;DR is just that I have no faith in ZOS to execute what they say they will and to execute it in a manner that actually takes into account player feedback and results in a product we as players want, not a product that they already designed 2 years ago and will now ignore feedback for. So seeing problems with the currently presented version of vengeance to me is a peek at the hand they already plan on delivering later on "to improve performance." I will state again, I hope I am wrong and that this results in awesome new PVP.
---
Yes, Its great that they are looking at PVP. my doubts are in them taking enough steps to deliver a fully fleshed out product (11 years in, but whos counting).

Crazy effort: maybe not. but more than they normally would, which is indicative of them having a final idea already out there.

Removal of battlespirit: I agree, it would be bloat, but the point missed is that it indicates that they suspect they can balance without it. history has shown ZOS and Balance can't exist in the same dictionary. so my concerns are there, since instead of balancing a generic debuff they are now balancing every skill for every class. Arguably, they already dont balance it on live, but now there will be 2 sets of skills (PVE and PVP) to balance and I foresee one getting neglected over the other.

Cooldowns: we agree. I understand their reasoning for minimizing calculations for tests. concerns are in them never actually going back to ramping cost models once an investor says "I like cooldowns, reminds me of my RPGs from the year 2000"

Target limit: Im still not sold. Its not outright good or bad yet imo, but who knows, maybe its the balance needed. for my templar none of my skills hit more than 3 at a time anyway, so no impact there. I just can recall enough scenarios, on my DK mostly, where hitting 6+ saved my bacon.

Accessibility: agreed, catering one way or the other too far is bad, at a certain point there needs to be the game and the rules. My point was more so about the player base that is already there. One of my guilds that casually PVP's is probably 80% 1 bar non-heavy attackers, for various reasons. being forced to play with 2 bars, most just wont, and have already expressed that its just going to be a week off from PVP. Thatll be 12-24 fewer players logging into cyrodiil, depending on the night, and while im sure thats small fries to the numbers people hope will log in, Im sure they arent the only guild or group of friends like that. Removing sets and all excludes players who have only really gotten into the game because of what was already introduced (oakensoul).Yes, they stated they plan to reintroduce them. But what if we learn that set calculations are the trouble, and we dont reintroduce them? sounds like we just alienated a portion of the player base currently enjoying PVP routinely.

Game popularity in the early days: I only started really getting into PVPing (beyond an occasional foray in PVE gear) in ~2020, so no clue. but it did seem to have a huge drop off with u35. But more so, if I understand correctly, the game was sold as a PVP mmo, and directly tied PVP into PVE with buffs and such, which of course drove people to participate in PVP, as the people who bought it were interested in that. Thats not the case anymore with half the player base just living out their skyrim fantasy since TES6 is still a pipe dream ( and thats okay!), but I have doubts that this test will even reach anywhere near the population numbers they hope it will, because the PVP player base just isnt there anymore, outside of maybe saturday night prime time.

Player output: I rarely use procs outside of wretched vitality. so my output is dependent on skills, timing, positioning and awareness. Passive buffs are baked into class design, and without them, a lot of classes feel like they are significantly lacking, which would require further balancing from ZOS, which might be another 10 years before it gets looked at.
---

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and ZOS *claims* they will do more than this, and that this is just a test. my trust and faith in them to actually do so is just not there, and I see many of these half baked ideas going live/becoming the new pvp. Expressing concerns about what very well might be the lazy end product because investing in crown crates is more lucrative, is jsut my way of hoping to get eyes on problems before its officially implemented. Im not looking forward to a watered down version of the game.

Sluggy wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort. Many of the skills are just old versions or current versions with parts deleted.

The battlespirit is another layer that is nolonger needed if pvp has its own skill versions. Keeping it would just be unnecessary bloat and rounding calculations.

Going by their track record this is far more than they are usually willing to do. That's a good thing in some ways but also a pretty good indication of where their goals are set.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Cooldowns are a sus way of limiting skills. Once the test happens live make sure to voice and die for this opinion. Ramping costs or higher costs are a better option for even better performance.

Agreed 100%.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Target limit is fine. Even in today's 1vX it is more like dueling against 10 players. Most classes other than acuity warden basically only take down 1-3 targets at a time. Big fear is they add back in Uncapped aoe heals and cross heals.

I was concerned at first. Don't we all love those epic moments where we are in a tight siege and suddenly we get that miracle cleave-into-VD combo? But really, how often does that happen these days? Between lag and defenses? The more I think about it the more I like it. Better performance in general is a worthwhile goal for this sacrifice. And it makes me feel like skills like dswing can actually be used in a siege fight effectively again.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The game was far more popular in the early days which vengeance is very similar to combat wise. Combat is clear and actions are meaningful. Its like playing super smash bros with items turned off vs turned on. They already stated that a more final vision would include sets, mundus, enchants, etc. Just dont expect skills to do an aoe+dot+gap close+buff+debuff+ground affect+ do your dishes.......etc.

Agree again. Even though this would be the death of PvP as we currently know it, I don't really mind that much. It's already near-dead as it is. I'd rather see *something* that encourages more players to join at this point. Even if I end up hating it and moving on I'm fine with that by now. I haven't been the target audience in over half a decade at this point. What do I have to lose? I see this as a potential way to reinvigorate it for more people. And if I look at it as an entirely new game that is similar to ESO well, isn't that what I've been looking for as a replacement to ESO for a while now?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The dynamic of what affects your output as a player will finally be more dependent on which skills you cast instead of what dlc you buy and slot. Seriously think about your output as a player. How much of your damage is from procs or passive buffs? Most skills now a days interact with 5-10 passive buffs instead of scaling mainly off your chosen stats. Inevitably pvp players will prefer the winning by skill instead of by default.

This probably isn't a popular opinion but when I came back last spring I noticed a very rapid change in power discrepancy when scribing started to become commonplace in Cyrodiil. The gap is larger than most would want to admit. Literally any style of play or build I had previously been successful with, kdrs of 10:1 or occasionally 20:1, had dropped to barely 2:1 or lower in just a matter of weeks. I have zero doubt that ZoS will try to integrate that stuff back in since it's a massive source of income for them and PvP is a massive incentive to have it. But for now I'll consider it a blessing if the field is leveled.

Overall I was shocked at the range of changes but now that I've had to time to stew with it I'm actually looking forward to seeing how it plays out. It's the newest and most exciting thing to happen to PvP in nearly half a decade now. There's really nothing to lose at this point so I'm just going to embrace it. The very worst they can do is abandon it, leave it to fester, provide no meaningful updates for years to come, allow imbalance and performance issues to crumble its foundations... *looks around*


EDIT: Omg what is the absolute state of the quoting tools in the forum. Had to sort all of that crap out.

I'm too lazy to split it up like you lol, I applaud your commitment though.

I mean my biggest win that I see with the vengeance campaign concept is how CLEAR combat will be now. Live combat is an absolute mess of animations. With hundreds of sets now and people wearing 2 sets+monster+mythic now we have even more animations going off. Many of these animations are insanely flashy for no reason, where some are so detrimental and hidden. Pvp will be much more enjoyable if you can actually see and react to what is happening.

I think there is a major disconnect between the combat and animations, because some things are too far gone. Half the proc sets in the game have crazier animations than most ultimates.

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just_Attivi wrote: »

After getting a peek at the Vengeance skills...

While I, again, understand they claim this to be just a test, Im seeing that they put in way too much effort into these vengeance skills, and with the history of this company, it just makes me feel even more confident that this is the ultimate direction they are going.
---
Some thoughts:

I dont mind PVP having PVP specific skills, as this would make balancing easier, in theory, more on that later. While I actually do like "SOME" of the new skills, I think a lot of them are lacking utility in current state and despite all the people touting "oh you wont be able to rely on proc sets anymore, gonna have to actually get skill" - as someone who generally plays without free damage proc sets on anything but a ganker, I see some class kits desperately lacking important buffs, which means youll need groups to get them, which means a couple things. 1- your 1vX'ers will be forced to be 2V's or Xv's , and if you already hated dealing with them itll only be worse. 2-If you were a 1vX'er, now you likely will need a comped group to a degree for buffs, which for some, really removes the thrill. 3- lacking combo's and pressure with skills that are now a dedicated 'just a buff' or 'just damage' it seems like in order to really kill any competent player, you will need to group them down or battle of attrition.

They are removing Battlespirit for the test and giving everyone 70k HP (but everyone takes PVE damage). This seems counterproductive as Battlespirit was the tool to separate PVE and PVP. Getting rid of it seems to suggest they think they can balance PVP without it. Which to me just screams more years of Sledgehammering skills into uselessness and Buffing others in an attempt to "Balance" with minimal idea of what this new pvp monstrosity theyre creating needs, because PVP playtesting from Dev side seems minimal, and PVP player feedback is generally not considered in any timely fashion.

Adding cooldowns to skills.... What? Okay, I get that its an attempt to limit powerful skills.... losing control over how and when to use them is not great. I can jump into any well developed Tab target game if I wanted that, and hit my rotation mindlessly for hours. ESO has the freedom to use skills as needed, pairing down not just the utility but the timing of skills removes the ability to adapt to situations, and unpredictable situations are half the thrill of PVP. This will only lead to less engaging gameplay. This isnt meant to be a phone game.

Basically everything has at most a target limit of 3 players. I don't know how I feel about that yet, but I think I see it as more of a downside than an upside, as someone who generally fights outnumbered.

If they do go this ultra trimmed down cyrodiil route, How will sets tie into it? By trimming down cyro, you are removing build versatility. While many people see this as 'HAHA NO MORE PROC CHEESE FOR YOU" they dont think about the other side of the coin: you know how many players Ive helped make one bar builds because they physically or mentally cannot do 2 bars? or how many people play tanks because they enjoy taking part in the action but arent so fast reacting anymore? Without sets, these playstyles do become obsolete. In order to reintroduce these, basically entire sets now need to be rebalanced, furthering the endeavor of this cyro revamp to levels I really dont see ZOS going through with. Build versatility is what makes this game interesting, and I just dont see a scenario that this pans out well, unless ZOS actually goes through with appropriate changes and balancing, which I doubt would happen. But a lot of this just seems half baked already, even from a testing standpoint.
---

I probably have more thoughts about this, but work is calling, so I'll probably ramble later. I will close this with saying that I do genuinely hope ZOS pulls through and makes something amazing and properly tests and balances things and everything is sunshine and rainbows. Their history just shows this is an unlikely scenario.

I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort. Many of the skills are just old versions or current versions with parts deleted.

The battlespirit is another layer that is nolonger needed if pvp has its own skill versions. Keeping it would just be unnecessary bloat and rounding calculations.

Cooldowns are a sus way of limiting skills. Once the test happens live make sure to voice and die for this opinion. Ramping costs or higher costs are a better option for even better performance.

Target limit is fine. Even in today's 1vX it is more like dueling against 10 players. Most classes other than acuity warden basically only take down 1-3 targets at a time. Big fear is they add back in Uncapped aoe heals and cross heals.

IMO accessibility is a one way street. If you cater too hard to disabled players you open doors for average/good lazy players to abuse cheese. Yay now heavy attack builds work....... oh there are 5 templars heavy attacking and beaming me to death with no counterplay...... nice. I think there are smarter ways than procs for disabled players. Oakensoul for example doesnt undermine the gcd system, but helps disabled players. Maybe instead of a fast paced dizzy swing build, they run a more aoe dot focused build. Or instead of more active skills they slot more buff skills and a single spammable.

Just_Attivi wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

@Just_Attivi

Erm, wow. That stuff you mentioned is all real? Not just supposition? I assume there's been some streams covering it or something? I really haven't been paying that much attention because I was taking a wait-and-see approach before reinstalling.

I agree with your assessment about the effort they've put in. I've hinted at it myself in a few posts (maybe even this one? I can't remember) I was just avoiding saying it out loud due to the excessive censorship lately. But the details you've said are completely scorched earth beyond a level even my jaded attitude would imagine. Assuming that's the case, I'd say there's not much left to post here. I mean on the PvP/Combat forums in general. At that point everything we know and like about ESO's PvP combat is gone. This is actually an entirely different game at this point. The ESO we've been playing for a decade is officially shutdown after this 'test' goes live.

yea, obviously we dont know what they will do in the future, but the track records make me think what i think lol. I know this is a "Test" but I can see this becoming the quick fix to get less "wah wah wah" from PVP'ers in the future, and if that is the route they go... yea, I dont see anyone who actually enjoys PVP staying.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and I hope this test helps them find out how to improve performance and keep what we all love (and maybe improve the things we dont love, like excessive heal/shield stacking lol). I agree that this step is a great FIRST step in diagnosing the problems, my doubts are with them carrying out appropriate steps beyond this, and again, I really want to be proven wrong on this. (also, still... midyear mayhem performance is always radically better than 'normal' despite being pop locked... just saying... maybe a point to look at, ZOS)

The game was far more popular in the early days which vengeance is very similar to combat wise. Combat is clear and actions are meaningful. Its like playing super smash bros with items turned off vs turned on. They already stated that a more final vision would include sets, mundus, enchants, etc. Just dont expect skills to do an aoe+dot+gap close+buff+debuff+ground affect+ do your dishes.......etc.

The dynamic of what affects your output as a player will finally be more dependent on which skills you cast instead of what dlc you buy and slot. Seriously think about your output as a player. How much of your damage is from procs or passive buffs? Most skills now a days interact with 5-10 passive buffs instead of scaling mainly off your chosen stats. Inevitably pvp players will prefer the winning by skill instead of by default.

Um, sorry, no, the vengence version of Cyrodiil on the PTS now is NOTHING like Cyrodiil in 2014. Not even remotely.

The only comment you've made in all these threads about the vengence mode that holds true in my opinion is "I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort" in regards to ZOS' investment into Cyrodiil PvP.

Nobody I know will stick around for this version of Cyrodiil. And besides that, it will seriously hurt ZOS' income because there will no longer be any reason for the PvP community to spend money on the PvE aspects of the game. This whole effort is misdirected in the first place in my opinion. They need to fix the Cyrodiil they already have. Not create a whole new game mode. They made Cyrodiil that worked and was glorious for years and they could do it again if they just tried. Instead they are going in a totally different direction.

You are arguing against the necessary steps to fix pvp...... and then saying they should fix pvp. What do you want me to say to this? I think the tests are 100% necessary, but I also have background in engineering and know the typical corporate process that would pretty much force them to have to test before taking action.

A 1 week test is not the end of the world, crazy that people think it is. They stated many times that this is not, nor would it be the final release version of pvp. It also does not make monetary sense to make all pvp players be able to ignore content and subscription services.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just_Attivi wrote: »

After getting a peek at the Vengeance skills...

While I, again, understand they claim this to be just a test, Im seeing that they put in way too much effort into these vengeance skills, and with the history of this company, it just makes me feel even more confident that this is the ultimate direction they are going.
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Some thoughts:

I dont mind PVP having PVP specific skills, as this would make balancing easier, in theory, more on that later. While I actually do like "SOME" of the new skills, I think a lot of them are lacking utility in current state and despite all the people touting "oh you wont be able to rely on proc sets anymore, gonna have to actually get skill" - as someone who generally plays without free damage proc sets on anything but a ganker, I see some class kits desperately lacking important buffs, which means youll need groups to get them, which means a couple things. 1- your 1vX'ers will be forced to be 2V's or Xv's , and if you already hated dealing with them itll only be worse. 2-If you were a 1vX'er, now you likely will need a comped group to a degree for buffs, which for some, really removes the thrill. 3- lacking combo's and pressure with skills that are now a dedicated 'just a buff' or 'just damage' it seems like in order to really kill any competent player, you will need to group them down or battle of attrition.

They are removing Battlespirit for the test and giving everyone 70k HP (but everyone takes PVE damage). This seems counterproductive as Battlespirit was the tool to separate PVE and PVP. Getting rid of it seems to suggest they think they can balance PVP without it. Which to me just screams more years of Sledgehammering skills into uselessness and Buffing others in an attempt to "Balance" with minimal idea of what this new pvp monstrosity theyre creating needs, because PVP playtesting from Dev side seems minimal, and PVP player feedback is generally not considered in any timely fashion.

Adding cooldowns to skills.... What? Okay, I get that its an attempt to limit powerful skills.... losing control over how and when to use them is not great. I can jump into any well developed Tab target game if I wanted that, and hit my rotation mindlessly for hours. ESO has the freedom to use skills as needed, pairing down not just the utility but the timing of skills removes the ability to adapt to situations, and unpredictable situations are half the thrill of PVP. This will only lead to less engaging gameplay. This isnt meant to be a phone game.

Basically everything has at most a target limit of 3 players. I don't know how I feel about that yet, but I think I see it as more of a downside than an upside, as someone who generally fights outnumbered.

If they do go this ultra trimmed down cyrodiil route, How will sets tie into it? By trimming down cyro, you are removing build versatility. While many people see this as 'HAHA NO MORE PROC CHEESE FOR YOU" they dont think about the other side of the coin: you know how many players Ive helped make one bar builds because they physically or mentally cannot do 2 bars? or how many people play tanks because they enjoy taking part in the action but arent so fast reacting anymore? Without sets, these playstyles do become obsolete. In order to reintroduce these, basically entire sets now need to be rebalanced, furthering the endeavor of this cyro revamp to levels I really dont see ZOS going through with. Build versatility is what makes this game interesting, and I just dont see a scenario that this pans out well, unless ZOS actually goes through with appropriate changes and balancing, which I doubt would happen. But a lot of this just seems half baked already, even from a testing standpoint.
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I probably have more thoughts about this, but work is calling, so I'll probably ramble later. I will close this with saying that I do genuinely hope ZOS pulls through and makes something amazing and properly tests and balances things and everything is sunshine and rainbows. Their history just shows this is an unlikely scenario.

I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort. Many of the skills are just old versions or current versions with parts deleted.

The battlespirit is another layer that is nolonger needed if pvp has its own skill versions. Keeping it would just be unnecessary bloat and rounding calculations.

Cooldowns are a sus way of limiting skills. Once the test happens live make sure to voice and die for this opinion. Ramping costs or higher costs are a better option for even better performance.

Target limit is fine. Even in today's 1vX it is more like dueling against 10 players. Most classes other than acuity warden basically only take down 1-3 targets at a time. Big fear is they add back in Uncapped aoe heals and cross heals.

IMO accessibility is a one way street. If you cater too hard to disabled players you open doors for average/good lazy players to abuse cheese. Yay now heavy attack builds work....... oh there are 5 templars heavy attacking and beaming me to death with no counterplay...... nice. I think there are smarter ways than procs for disabled players. Oakensoul for example doesnt undermine the gcd system, but helps disabled players. Maybe instead of a fast paced dizzy swing build, they run a more aoe dot focused build. Or instead of more active skills they slot more buff skills and a single spammable.

Just_Attivi wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

@Just_Attivi

Erm, wow. That stuff you mentioned is all real? Not just supposition? I assume there's been some streams covering it or something? I really haven't been paying that much attention because I was taking a wait-and-see approach before reinstalling.

I agree with your assessment about the effort they've put in. I've hinted at it myself in a few posts (maybe even this one? I can't remember) I was just avoiding saying it out loud due to the excessive censorship lately. But the details you've said are completely scorched earth beyond a level even my jaded attitude would imagine. Assuming that's the case, I'd say there's not much left to post here. I mean on the PvP/Combat forums in general. At that point everything we know and like about ESO's PvP combat is gone. This is actually an entirely different game at this point. The ESO we've been playing for a decade is officially shutdown after this 'test' goes live.

yea, obviously we dont know what they will do in the future, but the track records make me think what i think lol. I know this is a "Test" but I can see this becoming the quick fix to get less "wah wah wah" from PVP'ers in the future, and if that is the route they go... yea, I dont see anyone who actually enjoys PVP staying.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and I hope this test helps them find out how to improve performance and keep what we all love (and maybe improve the things we dont love, like excessive heal/shield stacking lol). I agree that this step is a great FIRST step in diagnosing the problems, my doubts are with them carrying out appropriate steps beyond this, and again, I really want to be proven wrong on this. (also, still... midyear mayhem performance is always radically better than 'normal' despite being pop locked... just saying... maybe a point to look at, ZOS)

The game was far more popular in the early days which vengeance is very similar to combat wise. Combat is clear and actions are meaningful. Its like playing super smash bros with items turned off vs turned on. They already stated that a more final vision would include sets, mundus, enchants, etc. Just dont expect skills to do an aoe+dot+gap close+buff+debuff+ground affect+ do your dishes.......etc.

The dynamic of what affects your output as a player will finally be more dependent on which skills you cast instead of what dlc you buy and slot. Seriously think about your output as a player. How much of your damage is from procs or passive buffs? Most skills now a days interact with 5-10 passive buffs instead of scaling mainly off your chosen stats. Inevitably pvp players will prefer the winning by skill instead of by default.

Um, sorry, no, the vengence version of Cyrodiil on the PTS now is NOTHING like Cyrodiil in 2014. Not even remotely.

The only comment you've made in all these threads about the vengence mode that holds true in my opinion is "I don't think they are putting a crazy amount of effort" in regards to ZOS' investment into Cyrodiil PvP.

Nobody I know will stick around for this version of Cyrodiil. And besides that, it will seriously hurt ZOS' income because there will no longer be any reason for the PvP community to spend money on the PvE aspects of the game. This whole effort is misdirected in the first place in my opinion. They need to fix the Cyrodiil they already have. Not create a whole new game mode. They made Cyrodiil that worked and was glorious for years and they could do it again if they just tried. Instead they are going in a totally different direction.

You are arguing against the necessary steps to fix pvp...... and then saying they should fix pvp. What do you want me to say to this? I think the tests are 100% necessary, but I also have background in engineering and know the typical corporate process that would pretty much force them to have to test before taking action.

A 1 week test is not the end of the world, crazy that people think it is. They stated many times that this is not, nor would it be the final release version of pvp. It also does not make monetary sense to make all pvp players be able to ignore content and subscription services.

I most certainly am not "arguing against the necessary steps to fix pvp". <snip>. Please stop mischaracterizing my statements.

<snipped for Trolling or Baiting>

The rewards need to be better plain and simple. Some suggestions: double AP but it’s converted to gold, 1 crown crate per every 25k AP earned, a Golden Pursuit for an Apex mount completely tied to Cyrodill, 1 day free ESO+ per 25k AP earned. As it stands they are asking us to give our time and money to test their product.