fixing performance by making everyone quit eso?

SilverBride

I'm not quitting. I like what I've read so far.

Sluggy

merevie wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

I keep thinking of the no proc test, which i enjoyed; but then they pushed it to a permanent campaign and didn't try to push more variety to see what worked. It was too limited for me beyond just the test; and this one will be way more limited.

I'm not sure why people think it's an event to just quit over. It's 1 week and then probably can be ignored

They are not saying it's one test. We have been through this before with Zos. It was horrific, lots of people quit the game and they did NOTHING with the results. Have you seen them mention those past tests and what they learnt anywhere? Why will it be different this time?

One thing that should be pointed: People like to claim those tests were failures. It's only a failure if no information is gained. That's the whole point of a test - to see what the results are. Not to get a pre-determined desired result. As for doing nothing with the results. It's hard to say. They never mentioned much other than it didn't get significant performance improvements and was apparently not worth further investigation at the time. One very small detail that might have been forgotten was that during the cooldown tests they very specifically said that if significant improvement was found then changes would be made. They didn't specify what those changes were but we can probably guess. Regardless, I think that's a pretty good indication of where this next test will go. If improvements happen - likely on *any* front, be it performance, participation, or simply cost effectiveness, then likely they will lean wholly down this road.

MincMincMinc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

We already know what caused the lag. The game was originally client based. Instead of cracking down on cheaters, zos transitioned as much as possible to be server side. Then to top it off, year after year they allowed design creep to happen. Everything became more complicated than they should have been including: skills, sets, status effects, passives, mechanics, animations, seige.

• Does dizzy swing really need offbalance? or can it just be a simple cast time skill that does alot of damage with a knockup?
• Any reason why we need proc sets that trigger off aoe dot crits, which do a stacking dot, thatlly build up and do a stun that wipes your butt for you? Actually perfect examples of this are the new proc sets they are introducing in the new update......
• Do all skills need to do an effect and have a passive and debuff the enemy and apply a cc?
• Do status effects really have to do damage, and do an aoe, and do more damage based on a previous effect, and debuff the enemy?
• Any reason the newer dlc skills have crazy flamboyant animations that make it impossible to see important animations like CC mechanics or burst? Why am I getting hit by 12k invisible merciless when all I can see is giant arcanist tentacle spam?

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating. Sadly the changes that need to happen wont because you will basically obsolete all old content. The only way is to bite the bullet or make an ESO 2 that follows a clear standard all at once.

Sadly there are players that think paragraph long overcomplicated skills and proc sets are fun gameplay. You will see them use verbiage like "zos is dumbing down combat". Somehow they think having sets and skills that do everything for you with minimal thinking is fun gameplay. Older school players prefer more mental/technical combat back and forth: you do a stun, I block. You do a root, I roll. You prep a burst, I interrupt it.

I think that this is basically accurate.

There has been such feature-creep and unneeded complexity appended to everything in the game that it is a minor miracle that something like Cyrodiil even functions at all.

It doesn't seem as though there were any technical personnel were in the room with the designers when they were coming up with these (admittedly neat) ideas. They have simply continued to stack and stack and stack effects and mechanics on top of each other.

A great example of this is probably the Tarnished gank combo from a few patches ago: one button click -> 20-second DOT (DOTs used to be 10s then were randomly lengthened) -> each tick can Crit or not -> if Crits then Tarnished procs -> Tarnished deals AOE damage + procs Sundered -> Sundered reduces Armor of all targets and increases wearer's base Weapon Damage for four seconds -> Tarnished goes on cooldown -> DOT continues to Crit when off of cooldown and proc Tarnished all over again, a maximum of 3 times. All for ONE button click. With overloaded mechanics like this it's no wonder at all that the server chugs.

Its rather disheartening to see people some players cry about the test how zos is "dumbing" down combat. Combat really needs to be cleaned up and be more concise. Its even more disheartening when I hear the same players complain about procs and overloaded skills...... Like make up your mind.

Im sure its not helping new players who cant numerically compare buffs and effects to be able to choose their skills.

At the same time itd be nice for zos to prioritize important animations. I dont need to see giant DLC tentacle spam when some acuity warden is ticking me for a 12k northern each second. Or how half the CC animations are near invisible now.

Lyraen_Skyforge

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

We already know what caused the lag. The game was originally client based. Instead of cracking down on cheaters, zos transitioned as much as possible to be server side. Then to top it off, year after year they allowed design creep to happen. Everything became more complicated than they should have been including: skills, sets, status effects, passives, mechanics, animations, seige.

• Does dizzy swing really need offbalance? or can it just be a simple cast time skill that does alot of damage with a knockup?
• Any reason why we need proc sets that trigger off aoe dot crits, which do a stacking dot, thatlly build up and do a stun that wipes your butt for you? Actually perfect examples of this are the new proc sets they are introducing in the new update......
• Do all skills need to do an effect and have a passive and debuff the enemy and apply a cc?
• Do status effects really have to do damage, and do an aoe, and do more damage based on a previous effect, and debuff the enemy?
• Any reason the newer dlc skills have crazy flamboyant animations that make it impossible to see important animations like CC mechanics or burst? Why am I getting hit by 12k invisible merciless when all I can see is giant arcanist tentacle spam?

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating. Sadly the changes that need to happen wont because you will basically obsolete all old content. The only way is to bite the bullet or make an ESO 2 that follows a clear standard all at once.

Sadly there are players that think paragraph long overcomplicated skills and proc sets are fun gameplay. You will see them use verbiage like "zos is dumbing down combat". Somehow they think having sets and skills that do everything for you with minimal thinking is fun gameplay. Older school players prefer more mental/technical combat back and forth: you do a stun, I block. You do a root, I roll. You prep a burst, I interrupt it.

I think that this is basically accurate.

There has been such feature-creep and unneeded complexity appended to everything in the game that it is a minor miracle that something like Cyrodiil even functions at all.

It doesn't seem as though there were any technical personnel were in the room with the designers when they were coming up with these (admittedly neat) ideas. They have simply continued to stack and stack and stack effects and mechanics on top of each other.

A great example of this is probably the Tarnished gank combo from a few patches ago: one button click -> 20-second DOT (DOTs used to be 10s then were randomly lengthened) -> each tick can Crit or not -> if Crits then Tarnished procs -> Tarnished deals AOE damage + procs Sundered -> Sundered reduces Armor of all targets and increases wearer's base Weapon Damage for four seconds -> Tarnished goes on cooldown -> DOT continues to Crit when off of cooldown and proc Tarnished all over again, a maximum of 3 times. All for ONE button click. With overloaded mechanics like this it's no wonder at all that the server chugs.

Its rather disheartening to see people some players cry about the test how zos is "dumbing" down combat. Combat really needs to be cleaned up and be more concise. Its even more disheartening when I hear the same players complain about procs and overloaded skills...... Like make up your mind.

Im sure its not helping new players who cant numerically compare buffs and effects to be able to choose their skills.

At the same time itd be nice for zos to prioritize important animations. I dont need to see giant DLC tentacle spam when some acuity warden is ticking me for a 12k northern each second. Or how half the CC animations are near invisible now.

While simplifying combat may seem appealing to address certain issues, reducing PvP to limited class skills fundamentally changes what makes an MMO like ESO unique. The beauty of an MMO lies in its complexity and the ability for players to invest time in crafting unique builds that reflect their personal playstyle. Stripping combat down to its bare essentials might make it more approachable for newcomers and easier on servers, but it risks alienating the core audience who value depth, strategy, and the rewards of their investment.

Simplification runs counter to the spirit of an MMO and risks turning it into something far more generic, undermining the rich, immersive experience that sets it apart.

JustLovely

loosej wrote: »

I'm trying to be optimistic about this test, but given past events, here's what I expect to see:

• Ballgroups doing battlegrounds for a week because why bother.
• Test going great, barely any performance issues. Maybe some forum posts about battleground performance.
• Zos saying: hey that worked, let's make this a permanent campaign.
• Permanent campaign staying empty, getting into GH still means waiting in a 50+ queue.
• Campaign getting removed after three years. Zos announcing some new tests, saying they have to start somewhere.

But this is one occasion where I really hope to be proven wrong.

It seemed to me that ZOS has already decided this is what they are going to implement in the long term. I've been around long enough to see their patterns. And I was around for the last round of "tests" in Cyrodiil that resulted in nothing other than another stealth reduction in the population cap. (I can only guess why ZOS never tells us when they lower the population cap or what the exact population is, but I think it's fairly obvious)

Instead of just fixing the Cyrodiil they already have they're going to try and revamp it all together most likely. And I think the most likely end result will be to radically lower the player base that participates in Cyrodiil, most likely to the point that Cyrodiil becomes an irrelevant part of ESO.

To me it seems like over the last 5 years or so ZOS has been moving towards making ESO another solo PvE questing TES game and converting Cyrodiil to static class based sets is just another step on the road toward that end.

If ZOS was actually trying to fix lag and performance in cyrodiil they'd at least try capping cross healing and shield stacking within groups; something they've never tried even though we've been asking for it for years.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Mangle wrote: »

They did similar when testing no proc and the end result was a disaster with Ravenwatch becoming a dead campaign.

The no proc thing didn't even improve performance. No change, same lag, same ball groups. 90% of the solo/zerg meta was Beekeeper HP regen tanks, and Hundings/Spriggans were the best available damage sets. It was awful, and I see no evidence that the Vengeance campaign won't just be more of this, just more dividing an already small player base.

ceruulean

After this test with no gear enabled, I hope ZoS implements some rules like allow crafted sets. This would make crafting and PvP synergistic communities. Just like how people want tailored clothes because they fit better, people want tailored PvP builds for their own playstyle. Honestly, that would be super cool. You can feel the anticipation of a knight getting their first sword forged, lol.

Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that the majority of the population enjoys brainrot content. There's more people who want to take a break from their stressful work and just play, rather than read PhD-esque set bonuses and understand the cause and effect of 100 different systems. I mean, yes, those people tend to avoid RPGs because RPGs tend to be spreadsheety, but if even RPG fans are getting confused and overwhelmed, I think that's a sign things need to be streamlined.

Also, if major and minor buffs are removed from class passives and skills, then gear like Rattlecage and potion choice would become more meaningful.

YandereGirlfriend

ceruulean wrote: »

After this test with no gear enabled, I hope ZoS implements some rules like allow crafted sets. This would make crafting and PvP synergistic communities. Just like how people want tailored clothes because they fit better, people want tailored PvP builds for their own playstyle. Honestly, that would be super cool. You can feel the anticipation of a knight getting their first sword forged, lol.

Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that the majority of the population enjoys brainrot content. There's more people who want to take a break from their stressful work and just play, rather than read PhD-esque set bonuses and understand the cause and effect of 100 different systems. I mean, yes, those people tend to avoid RPGs because RPGs tend to be spreadsheety, but if even RPG fans are getting confused and overwhelmed, I think that's a sign things need to be streamlined.

Also, if major and minor buffs are removed from class passives and skills, then gear like Rattlecage and potion choice would become more meaningful.

Players enjoy expressing themselves and their creativity through gameplay, particularly in RPGs. Removing that entirely from PvP is unappealing for most players. That's not a take it is reality.

Tinkerhorn

So far what I am expecting:
- remake/reinvision class and build
- relearn playstyle
- lose most of theory crafting
- may produce some results
- might split the PvP community even more
- might balance classes

It's unfortunate but it might be the best avenue ZoS has for improving performance but it's by making a game mode I'm not necesarilly keen to play.
The previous iteration of performance tests didn't really do any favours.

I think more should have been done to preserve no-CP ravenwatch rather than casting it to the doom of irrelevance so that CP wasn't a factor in calculations, then working towards condensing the gear/set bloat, reducing cross healing/instances of healing, improving map design, providing greater reward incentives, and giving people the option to select 'preset' builds for PvP.
I know it was said that this wouldn't improve performance but the same was said about server upgrades. Maybe they'll achieve this with starting fresh but I do think it's the wrong approach and it will take a long time to achieve the desired outcome of a game mode PvPers want to play in large, which is well balanced, and achieves extensively better performance as just slight improvements in player caps and performance just aren't worth the sacrifices.

Ultimately a lot of misteps have been taken with PvP without much attention and what seems like a lot of neglect. I'm not so sure if ZoS can overcome the obstacle of their own creation.

MincMincMinc

RomanRex wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

We already know what caused the lag. The game was originally client based. Instead of cracking down on cheaters, zos transitioned as much as possible to be server side. Then to top it off, year after year they allowed design creep to happen. Everything became more complicated than they should have been including: skills, sets, status effects, passives, mechanics, animations, seige.

• Does dizzy swing really need offbalance? or can it just be a simple cast time skill that does alot of damage with a knockup?
• Any reason why we need proc sets that trigger off aoe dot crits, which do a stacking dot, thatlly build up and do a stun that wipes your butt for you? Actually perfect examples of this are the new proc sets they are introducing in the new update......
• Do all skills need to do an effect and have a passive and debuff the enemy and apply a cc?
• Do status effects really have to do damage, and do an aoe, and do more damage based on a previous effect, and debuff the enemy?
• Any reason the newer dlc skills have crazy flamboyant animations that make it impossible to see important animations like CC mechanics or burst? Why am I getting hit by 12k invisible merciless when all I can see is giant arcanist tentacle spam?

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating. Sadly the changes that need to happen wont because you will basically obsolete all old content. The only way is to bite the bullet or make an ESO 2 that follows a clear standard all at once.

Sadly there are players that think paragraph long overcomplicated skills and proc sets are fun gameplay. You will see them use verbiage like "zos is dumbing down combat". Somehow they think having sets and skills that do everything for you with minimal thinking is fun gameplay. Older school players prefer more mental/technical combat back and forth: you do a stun, I block. You do a root, I roll. You prep a burst, I interrupt it.

I think that this is basically accurate.

There has been such feature-creep and unneeded complexity appended to everything in the game that it is a minor miracle that something like Cyrodiil even functions at all.

It doesn't seem as though there were any technical personnel were in the room with the designers when they were coming up with these (admittedly neat) ideas. They have simply continued to stack and stack and stack effects and mechanics on top of each other.

A great example of this is probably the Tarnished gank combo from a few patches ago: one button click -> 20-second DOT (DOTs used to be 10s then were randomly lengthened) -> each tick can Crit or not -> if Crits then Tarnished procs -> Tarnished deals AOE damage + procs Sundered -> Sundered reduces Armor of all targets and increases wearer's base Weapon Damage for four seconds -> Tarnished goes on cooldown -> DOT continues to Crit when off of cooldown and proc Tarnished all over again, a maximum of 3 times. All for ONE button click. With overloaded mechanics like this it's no wonder at all that the server chugs.

Its rather disheartening to see people some players cry about the test how zos is "dumbing" down combat. Combat really needs to be cleaned up and be more concise. Its even more disheartening when I hear the same players complain about procs and overloaded skills...... Like make up your mind.

Im sure its not helping new players who cant numerically compare buffs and effects to be able to choose their skills.

At the same time itd be nice for zos to prioritize important animations. I dont need to see giant DLC tentacle spam when some acuity warden is ticking me for a 12k northern each second. Or how half the CC animations are near invisible now.

While simplifying combat may seem appealing to address certain issues, reducing PvP to limited class skills fundamentally changes what makes an MMO like ESO unique. The beauty of an MMO lies in its complexity and the ability for players to invest time in crafting unique builds that reflect their personal playstyle. Stripping combat down to its bare essentials might make it more approachable for newcomers and easier on servers, but it risks alienating the core audience who value depth, strategy, and the rewards of their investment.

Simplification runs counter to the spirit of an MMO and risks turning it into something far more generic, undermining the rich, immersive experience that sets it apart.

In no way does simplifying paragraph long skills that lag the server hurt your progression, hello, what have you done over the years that adds buffs to your skills? What you are arguing is that power creep is progression and you do not want it fixed.......Granted many people who dont fully think this issue through argue for keeping powercreep as well.

xylena_lazarow

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

- relearn playstyle
- lose most of theory crafting
- might split the PvP community even more

This right here will immediately get a hard NO from a lot of players. It may have made sense to try this as a weekend BGs ruleset but I find it extremely unlikely an entire Cyro campaign will reach a critical mass of players.

Soraka

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

After this test with no gear enabled, I hope ZoS implements some rules like allow crafted sets. This would make crafting and PvP synergistic communities. Just like how people want tailored clothes because they fit better, people want tailored PvP builds for their own playstyle. Honestly, that would be super cool. You can feel the anticipation of a knight getting their first sword forged, lol.

Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that the majority of the population enjoys brainrot content. There's more people who want to take a break from their stressful work and just play, rather than read PhD-esque set bonuses and understand the cause and effect of 100 different systems. I mean, yes, those people tend to avoid RPGs because RPGs tend to be spreadsheety, but if even RPG fans are getting confused and overwhelmed, I think that's a sign things need to be streamlined.

Also, if major and minor buffs are removed from class passives and skills, then gear like Rattlecage and potion choice would become more meaningful.

Players enjoy expressing themselves and their creativity through gameplay, particularly in RPGs. Removing that entirely from PvP is unappealing for most players. That's not a take it is reality.

To add on to this, as one of those mentally tired people Cyrodiil IS my casual activity. And Cyrodiil is social, too. A lot of us chat and mess around and aren't just in there to compete compete compete. There are games for that. This one is unique because of the MMO feel inside the pvp. Because of the variety I can choose to be hardcore or not and it's not a big deal. Cyro is still play how you want.
As a Cyrodiil casual, I don't think templates and reducing options is the simple answer people think it is. The complaints about meta will only be worse when there's even less choices.

*Edit when I say casual please don't misunderstand as me saying I'm inexperienced or uneducated in Cyrodiil things therefore don't get an opinion. I'm busy and tired now there's a difference

CrazyKitty

JustLovely wrote: »

loosej wrote: »

I'm trying to be optimistic about this test, but given past events, here's what I expect to see:

• Ballgroups doing battlegrounds for a week because why bother.
• Test going great, barely any performance issues. Maybe some forum posts about battleground performance.
• Zos saying: hey that worked, let's make this a permanent campaign.
• Permanent campaign staying empty, getting into GH still means waiting in a 50+ queue.
• Campaign getting removed after three years. Zos announcing some new tests, saying they have to start somewhere.

But this is one occasion where I really hope to be proven wrong.

It seemed to me that ZOS has already decided this is what they are going to implement in the long term. I've been around long enough to see their patterns. And I was around for the last round of "tests" in Cyrodiil that resulted in nothing other than another stealth reduction in the population cap. (I can only guess why ZOS never tells us when they lower the population cap or what the exact population is, but I think it's fairly obvious)

Instead of just fixing the Cyrodiil they already have they're going to try and revamp it all together most likely. And I think the most likely end result will be to radically lower the player base that participates in Cyrodiil, most likely to the point that Cyrodiil becomes an irrelevant part of ESO.

To me it seems like over the last 5 years or so ZOS has been moving towards making ESO another solo PvE questing TES game and converting Cyrodiil to static class based sets is just another step on the road toward that end.

If ZOS was actually trying to fix lag and performance in cyrodiil they'd at least try capping cross healing and shield stacking within groups; something they've never tried even though we've been asking for it for years.

So much this.

ZOS has still never even tried limiting cross healing and shield stacking. Anyone who's ever played near a ball group has seen their performance bottom out in real time. We've seen it happen every day for years. Yet ZOS has still, despite all the begging over years, still not even tried limiting the heal and shield stacking within groups.

In my view this tells me ZOS isn't really trying to fix cyrodiil performance. We're just getting more PR lip service here most likely. Besides that, if ZOS could make Cyrodiil work in the past they can make it work today without completely removing theorycrafting and builds from the zone.

fizzylu

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Players enjoy expressing themselves and their creativity through gameplay, particularly in RPGs. Removing that entirely from PvP is unappealing for most players. That's not a take it is reality.

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

- lose most of theory crafting

Seriously, if this is what ESO PvP is to become.... ignoring other MMOs that allow class building and diverse playstyles, I can't see why anyone who truly loves PvP in general would ever choose to play this game over something even like Overwatch or League.

Just_Attivi

I love ESO PVP. Im not amazing, but I love it. If a different game came out that was a clone of ESO Cyrodiil, but just functioned optimally, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

I Get that this is a 'test' to view performance, and I HOPE it leads to great results, but I do have concerns.

There definitely will be nuance to a 'trimmed down'' version of pvp, which of course will introduce new metas. For one, just off their sample skill they showed, Templar gets brutality from jabs, that version of jabs did not have it. Will all other classes with skills that give brutality also have the buff removed? Obviously, this can be extended out to every buff. Maybe theyve thought about this, maybe this is intentional, we dont know yet. But same thing for passives... Templar again, Ill use burning light. its baked into the class damage balance. Is this taken into consideration in this new no passive set up? My point being, there seems to be things overlooked right out the gate, which is a common track record with this company.

Now, lets look at sets. Theres none. Okay, cool! You know what got me to come back to this game after not playing for months? a silly build idea. The variety of this game is its lifeblood, its baked into it from the start, with overland sets and things to farm. Balancing these sets in PVP using battlespirit is a better choice, rather than outright removing them. Of course, ZOS needs to get some precision tools and put away the sledgehammer for once in their existence for that to matter, but the point stands. Variety and doing different things is exciting. going into pvp and not knowing what the enemy can do is exciting. Stale "we have 7 ways to play, and 6 of them arent good" is... exactly that, stale. Sure, its ''skill' at that point... but if everyone is going for the best choice of 7 choices, eventually you know what to expect, and its better to just get a zerg. exciting 1v1's and even outnumbered fights that truly do show skill will be entirely gone (i do it with no procs on my templar in GH, so save your proc cheese comments for fighting outnumbered). The loss of variety will shrink the playerbase. Diversity isa huge draw to this game.

Targeted heals. Honestly, I love the idea! Except... whats this... are you zoomed out and someones behind you? you try to heal your friend in front of you but NOPE dude behind you is in your reticle, you heal them instead. Fix targeting, and this idea is gold. Or better yet... rather than drastically changing the rules of how heals work, lets just limit cross healing, like literally every PVP'er has asked for since the dawn of this game. its fine to test the idea they have, i just see mass frustrations en route.

Now, you might say this trimmed down version of PVP is more competitive! everyones on an equal playing field! ... lets ignore hardware and connection advantages for sake of conversation, but ever look at those population bars? its not an even playing field. outside of prime time even GH usually has lopsided bars. prior to giving up after repeated crashes tonight, GH was 1 bar AD 1 ;bar EP ;pop lock DC. so that 1v50 fight youll find on repeat wont really be competitive, itll be the same. If only there was a way to counter big groups... OH MY GOSH BOMBERS! its almost like balancing tools exist in this game to combat the lopsided fights that will occur in a dynamic map without some sort of population levelling tool! amazing! now lets get rid of that! -.- just one example of how build variety actually does balance the game, and create equality in competition.

Okay okay, but lone defenders can use siege!!!! youre right! without sets to buff, siege will be more devastating! ding ding a winner! except whats this... the numerous enemies out numbering you can also siege you.... Ayyyyy back to square one.
---
But Attivi, this is just a test! Your concerns arent permanent!
Except this is ZOS. Player Feedback is routinely ignored, and habitually has been for as long as Ive played. Pardon my doubts for ANY constructive feedback to change what they think is fun and therefore implement.

But okay, lets play. They test this. double AP and such, so all the people who dont normally PVP come out, get their tier 3 rewards and such. groovy. Whats this? tests show that this trimmed down Cyro had hundreds more players at once with minimal lag (much like midyear mayhem with all the stuff we have in it already but shhhhh ignore that!) !!! wow! this new pvp mode must have some serious draw! lets ignore that this isnt what most PVP'ers wanted and KEEP IT FOREVER. we will see a message like "after analyzing our data, we saw that PVP with this new format was a big hit! we decided to keep it, with plans to add to it in future updates."

But it wont be forever Attivi, they will add to it!
Much like hybridization, right? only took what, 3 years? And its not even actually complete yet... Pardon me, but I wont stick around for 3 years to see if they add anything interesting to PVP. maybe my tin foil hat is on too tight, but this company has not shown me much reason to believe they don't already have plans of nuking cyrodiil from orbit into this new format that will feel like a day 1 beta release.
---

TL;DR : I forsee this being the ultimate direction they take pvp, despite claims of this being just a stress test of sorts, and its not a direction that will retain anyone who actually enjoys the depth and diversity, nuance and tactics of pvp in this game. itll just be a zerg fest with the potential to hold hundreds more people at once all light attacking that door.

Muizer

Yes, well now I am getting the impression that the main objection people have against ZOS' approach is that they don't believe it will be carried through to a satisfactory conclusion. In other words, it's just raw distrust. Because if we assume developers are going to carry this through then this approach is most definitely the right one to take. And I have not yet heard a single argument to say that it is not.

Which leaves us in the odd position that we now have players advocating obviously suboptimal strategies for tackling performance issues. Like, they already experimented with taking out one element (procs) that everyone believed 'intuitively' should improve performance and it did not work. And now we're supposed to move on to another thing that 'intuitively' should help performance (cross healing). Except when that inevitably fails too, ZOS will be the ones taking the flack for their failure for addressing the next "obvious" thing to tackle and we'll all still be here complaining about performance a year from now.

The time for addressing one thing and hoping it will work is over.


Now, as for carrying things through. I too have some concerns. It's about the shift in direction ZOS have announced. Very superficially, that would suggest that resources are freed to actually push through a regime of experimenting and rebuilding at a much higher rate than before. But it's not that obvious to me that's the case, because It is not a given that the resources that are freed by dropping chapters can or will be reallocated to a project like rebalancing PvP. The skill sets won't match, so it would involve letting some people go and hiring new ones in their place. In my experience, companies that change course like this tend to do the former, but not the latter.

xylena_lazarow

Muizer wrote: »

Because if we assume developers are going to carry this through

Given all the unfinished game systems we're still waiting on...

Nevermind the fact that they already tried a streamlined simplified ruleset (Ravenwatch). Despite all the very loud forum demands for "pure skill PvP" or whatever they thought the ruleset would do, it flopped badly, and was abandoned. Unless the entire PvP community moves to Vengeance (they won't), it'll end up the same way.

Veinblood1965

As long as it is not across the board and a template is the ONLY way you can PvP then that's fine. I think it would draw a few peeps into PVP but not many. If it's across the board then that'll be the day I quit entirely, I've done everything else and PVP is my last stop. It would be totally boring to not try experimenting with new builds etc.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Because if we assume developers are going to carry this through

Given all the unfinished game systems we're still waiting on...

Nevermind the fact that they already tried a streamlined simplified ruleset (Ravenwatch). Despite all the very loud forum demands for "pure skill PvP" or whatever they thought the ruleset would do, it flopped badly, and was abandoned. Unless the entire PvP community moves to Vengeance (they won't), it'll end up the same way.

The problem is that zos provides no incentives to fill out pvp campaigns. Anything other than the 30day endgame just dies out because cyro was not designed to work at low population (launch's low population). People also tend to simply flock to the endgame top of the list campaign. Even though low-mid tier players would be more advantaged in the nocp campaign, people rather have all of their possible unlockables.

Zos also messed up the "no proc" aspect. People wanted a no damage proc campaign like no tarnished or sloads or viper or Rush. Sets like fury, truth, SPC, Rallying, Clever, Stuhn should have all been included.

If they are going to have a nocp campaign, they should also force low cp players into that campaign. If you dont have a full red tree or blue tree, you should really be in the nocp campaign. At the same time get rid of the under lvl50 campaign and bake it all in to the nocp campaign.

Muizer

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Because if we assume developers are going to carry this through

Given all the unfinished game systems we're still waiting on...

Nevermind the fact that they already tried a streamlined simplified ruleset (Ravenwatch). Despite all the very loud forum demands for "pure skill PvP" or whatever they thought the ruleset would do, it flopped badly, and was abandoned. Unless the entire PvP community moves to Vengeance (they won't), it'll end up the same way.

You're saying no matter what ZOS does they won't do it right. As an expression of frustration I can appreciate that, but as a contribution to a discussion about ZOS' plans it's kind of worthless. It does not add up to point to the strategy and say "this is a bad plan" and then when asked "why" say "because they won't execute it well".

xylena_lazarow

Muizer wrote: »

You're saying no matter what ZOS does they won't do it right

In another one of my posts, my frustration was that ZOS was actually doing really well with balanced nerfs to Tarnished, Hardened Ward, and Vamp 3, as opposed to blowing up the meta like they've done in the past. But instead of continuing on that path, they're... blowing it up and starting over, yet again, despite years of us pleading for them to NOT do this.

This particular style rework, simplifying and streamlining, has been done. It flopped. So we have good reason to be skeptical and frustrated. The PvP meta is honestly pretty good outside of ball groups, Rushing Agony, and annoying ranged Sorcs. There's no reason to be starting over. And even if the ruleset is simplified, players are still going to have to relearn a lot. There's still going to be a meta of class/skill combos that are flat better than other class/skill combos.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

You're saying no matter what ZOS does they won't do it right

In another one of my posts, my frustration was that ZOS was actually doing really well with balanced nerfs to Tarnished, Hardened Ward, and Vamp 3, as opposed to blowing up the meta like they've done in the past. But instead of continuing on that path, they're... blowing it up and starting over, yet again, despite years of us pleading for them to NOT do this.

This particular style rework, simplifying and streamlining, has been done. It flopped. So we have good reason to be skeptical and frustrated. The PvP meta is honestly pretty good outside of ball groups, Rushing Agony, and annoying ranged Sorcs. There's no reason to be starting over. And even if the ruleset is simplified, players are still going to have to relearn a lot. There's still going to be a meta of class/skill combos that are flat better than other class/skill combos.

What bothers me more is that while one team at zos is on fire screaming because the game cant handle the over complicated power crept skills and sets....... Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

Yeah I don't understand all these overengineered new sets. They're also usually really bad. Guess that's better than more overpowered burst procs, but why bother at all? Release fewer sets overall, but make them more relevant.

The problem has never been "procs" though. Nobody is screaming for Sunderflame to be nerfed. Old Oakensoul, Old Malacath, and the entire existence of Mechanical Acuity have all been obnoxiously busted stat sets. Pressure procs don't really do anything that stat sets don't, much like stat sets they're fine if the numbers aren't too big.

The other day I got caught off guard by a melee NB with Kjalnar. The 10k hit effectively buffed his burst combo by 50%, an absurd number in this game. It's unlikely I'll ever let that crap hit me again now that I know what it looks like, it'll never go meta, but the entire concept of a burst damage proc is stupid and broken. Same for automation procs like Rushing Agony, which is somehow also a burst damage proc (lol). Still can't believe how many ways Rushing Agony is busted.

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Thumbless_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

Yeah I don't understand all these overengineered new sets. They're also usually really bad. Guess that's better than more overpowered burst procs, but why bother at all? Release fewer sets overall, but make them more relevant.

The problem has never been "procs" though. Nobody is screaming for Sunderflame to be nerfed. Old Oakensoul, Old Malacath, and the entire existence of Mechanical Acuity have all been obnoxiously busted stat sets. Pressure procs don't really do anything that stat sets don't, much like stat sets they're fine if the numbers aren't too big.

The other day I got caught off guard by a melee NB with Kjalnar. The 10k hit effectively buffed his burst combo by 50%, an absurd number in this game. It's unlikely I'll ever let that crap hit me again now that I know what it looks like, it'll never go meta, but the entire concept of a burst damage proc is stupid and broken. Same for automation procs like Rushing Agony, which is somehow also a burst damage proc (lol). Still can't believe how many ways Rushing Agony is busted.

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Fix what we have in terms of sets. Imagine going back to farm Crypt of Hearts because Ebon is now interesting and viable. Imagine the potential build diversity that already exists in the game if zos would bring sets up to par... would be a whole new game and a lot of fun.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

....

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Plus it cannot be balanced...Whichever class has the mathematically best "vengeance skill line" will dominate. We will know which class that is when the PTS notes come out. Think just starting the game with 18 unmorphed skills and ultimates and your white starter armor and weapons.

MincMincMinc

katorga wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

....

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Plus it cannot be balanced...Whichever class has the mathematically best "vengeance skill line" will dominate. We will know which class that is when the PTS notes come out. Think just starting the game with 18 unmorphed skills and ultimates and your white starter armor and weapons.

For now there will be no passives. There will be a plain standard so each classes burst heal will be the same tooltip. Effectively I expect classes to just be a skin with different animations.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

Yeah I don't understand all these overengineered new sets. They're also usually really bad. Guess that's better than more overpowered burst procs, but why bother at all? Release fewer sets overall, but make them more relevant.

The problem has never been "procs" though. Nobody is screaming for Sunderflame to be nerfed. Old Oakensoul, Old Malacath, and the entire existence of Mechanical Acuity have all been obnoxiously busted stat sets. Pressure procs don't really do anything that stat sets don't, much like stat sets they're fine if the numbers aren't too big.

The other day I got caught off guard by a melee NB with Kjalnar. The 10k hit effectively buffed his burst combo by 50%, an absurd number in this game. It's unlikely I'll ever let that crap hit me again now that I know what it looks like, it'll never go meta, but the entire concept of a burst damage proc is stupid and broken. Same for automation procs like Rushing Agony, which is somehow also a burst damage proc (lol). Still can't believe how many ways Rushing Agony is busted.

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Fix what we have in terms of sets. Imagine going back to farm Crypt of Hearts because Ebon is now interesting and viable. Imagine the potential build diversity that already exists in the game if zos would bring sets up to par... would be a whole new game and a lot of fun.

This is why I always thought they should do an eso+ rotation for dlc instead of giving permanent access. Imagine if they just reworked certain dlc and give bonuses for playing it. After the overland rebalances this could work really well. It would sure help with the game feeling dead and empty. So many zones are just not used. Not to mention with a limited rotation itd give the zos team time to rework and rebalance certain dungeons to be up to a given standard for difficulty.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

Yeah I don't understand all these overengineered new sets. They're also usually really bad. Guess that's better than more overpowered burst procs, but why bother at all? Release fewer sets overall, but make them more relevant.

The problem has never been "procs" though. Nobody is screaming for Sunderflame to be nerfed. Old Oakensoul, Old Malacath, and the entire existence of Mechanical Acuity have all been obnoxiously busted stat sets. Pressure procs don't really do anything that stat sets don't, much like stat sets they're fine if the numbers aren't too big.

The other day I got caught off guard by a melee NB with Kjalnar. The 10k hit effectively buffed his burst combo by 50%, an absurd number in this game. It's unlikely I'll ever let that crap hit me again now that I know what it looks like, it'll never go meta, but the entire concept of a burst damage proc is stupid and broken. Same for automation procs like Rushing Agony, which is somehow also a burst damage proc (lol). Still can't believe how many ways Rushing Agony is busted.

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Its just the yugioh power creep effect. At a certain point you run out of ideas and just power creep to overlap to a new plateau, just to run out of ideas and have to powercreep up to the next plateau.

• Hundings is all the rage.....oh we ran out of plain stat sets to design.
• Damage timed sets like fury, clever, truth are all the rage...... oh we ran out of ideas
• Proc sets like vipers, tremor, sloads are all the rage.......... oh we ran out of ideas
• What if we started doing proc sets like viper, tremor, sloads except now they are aoe with no telegraphs and do CC?

Building can exist, it did in the early days with ~10% of the sets currently in the game. Skills used to scale differently and felt much better because they had one purpose. Now a days you cant get a plain damage skill without extra nonsense tied to it. Imagine if a damage skill was balanced around just being a damage skill. You'd be surprised how much more fun it is to have the skills you press do the majority of the damage instead of 50% of your damage coming from proc and status effects.

Sluggy

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Another design team is continuing to pump out and release paragraph long proc sets by the half dozen.

Yeah I don't understand all these overengineered new sets. They're also usually really bad. Guess that's better than more overpowered burst procs, but why bother at all? Release fewer sets overall, but make them more relevant.

The problem has never been "procs" though. Nobody is screaming for Sunderflame to be nerfed. Old Oakensoul, Old Malacath, and the entire existence of Mechanical Acuity have all been obnoxiously busted stat sets. Pressure procs don't really do anything that stat sets don't, much like stat sets they're fine if the numbers aren't too big.

The other day I got caught off guard by a melee NB with Kjalnar. The 10k hit effectively buffed his burst combo by 50%, an absurd number in this game. It's unlikely I'll ever let that crap hit me again now that I know what it looks like, it'll never go meta, but the entire concept of a burst damage proc is stupid and broken. Same for automation procs like Rushing Agony, which is somehow also a burst damage proc (lol). Still can't believe how many ways Rushing Agony is busted.

Yet I'd still rather deal with nonsense procs than play ESO without builds. I can go check out another game then.

Its just the yugioh power creep effect. At a certain point you run out of ideas and just power creep to overlap to a new plateau, just to run out of ideas and have to powercreep up to the next plateau.

• Hundings is all the rage.....oh we ran out of plain stat sets to design.
• Damage timed sets like fury, clever, truth are all the rage...... oh we ran out of ideas
• Proc sets like vipers, tremor, sloads are all the rage.......... oh we ran out of ideas
• What if we started doing proc sets like viper, tremor, sloads except now they are aoe with no telegraphs and do CC?

Building can exist, it did in the early days with ~10% of the sets currently in the game. Skills used to scale differently and felt much better because they had one purpose. Now a days you cant get a plain damage skill without extra nonsense tied to it. Imagine if a damage skill was balanced around just being a damage skill. You'd be surprised how much more fun it is to have the skills you press do the majority of the damage instead of 50% of your damage coming from proc and status effects.

Based on what I've been expecting for the last four years given their efforts to lean more and more into proc sets it seems the powercreep won't be going anywhere. It just likely won't be tied to classes so much anymore. I wondered years ago if all of the overtuned sets with longer cooldowns were a subtle effort to curb APM by making players want to save skills as triggers for something they were wearing. That's likely how this will end up going. Why use an underwhelming skill with little-to-no side effects when you can not use it until your proc set is off cooldown?

DrSlaughtr

I am cautiously optimistic.

I am one of the ones who enjoyed the initial no proc. I found the combat more fun to simply focus on doing damage, and since no one else could run their procy survival set, it was perfectly fine. Then they had to go and tie no proc to a no CP campaign and yeah, no thanks.

Ultimately so long as I can still play a nightblade with cloak, I will probably be okay with the changes. If I wanted to play a smashem brawler, there are 20 games in my library where I can do that. The one thing that is truly unique about this game is stealth combat and the chess game with other players.

Every attack skill should do damage and that's it, or maybe one additional effect. Every buff and debuff skill should buff or debuff and that's it. Sets should be limited to increases to damage, healing or recovery and that's it.

STOP LETTING 12 TANKS run the entire server into the ground because they're eating through 40 players worth of damage and har-haring about it in chat like they're doing advanced calculus.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You'd be surprised how much more fun it is to have the skills you press do the majority of the damage instead of 50% of your damage coming from proc and status effects.

It makes zero difference on the field whether my pressure damage is coming from Rending Slashes by itself, or from Rending Slashes triggering other small damage sources. If you want to delete all the procs but buff dot skills themselves to make up for it, sure whatever. If my playstyle works on Vengeance then cool I might not hate it.