DigiAngel wrote: »

There is none. Seriously.

There is. But it comes at the expense of freedom.

You can force certain requirements to queue for a specific role to enforce roles and eliminate "Fake Roles" (For example, other MMO's will have a class/spec be limited to being able to queue for only its designated role)

Of course, such requirements in a game with as much build freedom as ESO would end up being very difficult to confine and the end result will also provide negative impacts on a great many people who might play off-meta builds or simply haven't acquired the necessary gear yet.

There are ways to help with that, though they can end up being annoying to deal with. For example, something like WoW's Role Trials whereby you go through a scenario designed to test your ability in a particular role. If you complete it you can then it saves your build and you can use that to queue for that role. The obvious annoyance comes from having to redo that whenever you wanted to change something in the build (And of course, having to do it in the first place. Even more so if you realize you're terrible at performing. As some of my guild members found with WoW's Trials which were so unbelivably easy that you could off-role them)

Another potential thing would be to create a "Champion Point" system but purtaining to roles. Whereby you have to pick a single role tree and then can put in points to improve capabilities in that role (Such as Block Mitigation/Block Cost for Tanks, Healing/Shielding output for Healers etc). Whereby the tree you've selected is the one you can queue for. So DPS who've picked the DPS tree can't just slap on a Taunt or a heal and go queue up for something else.

There are many other ways to try and constrain people to pick appropriate roles. They will all have their limitations (And won't discount the human factor of... Maybe people are just bad at the game and that's why your Tank build Tank can't hold aggro and stay alive because they can't push the Taunt and self heal/shield abilities or block the telegraphed heavy attacks).

Some ways can be more novel, such as creating a means to bypass the need for a "Balanced" group. So that, for example, 5 DPS can group up and they get a Dungeon that features a Tank and Healer DPS but the entire dungeon is scaled to have more health that the party needs to kill. While parties with Tank or Healer players will have lower health enemies, but more incoming damage that makes their role relevant. Such a system would bypass "Fake Roles" by reducing people's incentive to queue for other roles (That being, DPS having a longer queue time compared to Tank/Healers) due to the nature of ANY 4 people will create a valid party.

Why do people que as fake tanks.......

They are trying to que faster

Why are they trying to que faster........

They are farming for something grindy that sucks and is boring.

---

Only way you will cut down on it is to remove the daily grind or gear grind. Two examples:

1. Remove daily dungeon rewards, but you will see long dungeon que times. Or with a declining pop and tons of dlc, you wont ever get a que pop.
2. Remove the pledge key system, after 10 years people simply dont care to run spindleclutch one mob at a time anymore.
3. Adjust gear drops so that weapons and jewelry do not drop from the last boss. Out of 66 items to collect in a dungeon, 45(68%) of the the items drop from the last boss. With the new stickerbook collection system, players do not trade gear anymore so you need to run the dungeon potentially 45 times at about 20-30 mins a piece for a potentially 23hr farm.

DigiAngel wrote: »

There is none. Seriously. You're asking for a technical control to apply to a HUMAN issue. Not going to work out well. I DO like the idea of more crystals for vet rnd, but that's the carrot approach that will only get you so far. What you're seeing when someone is rude/ignores etiquette/etc.. is a people problem...one that can only truly be solved by that same person from WITHIN, not from pressure from the outside.

THAT SAID....you have these options:

• Leave the dungeon (it will come around again...trust me).
• Be prepared to play any role. Gear changing addons are a help.
• Consider it a challenge to play the dungeon with the missing role.

I usually choose the second and third. I have a toon that hasn't hit all dungeons yet..if I think I'll have the quest, I let the group know. If they speed through, I speed through...if not, I do the quest. Adapt to the group, even though it may not be 100% beneficial for you.

"There is none. Seriously."

Unhelpful post is unhelpful.

Why does no one want to tank hardly?

Just stop with BoP gear. Then all the people who speedrun to farm can stop queuing and just buy the gear.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Why does no one want to tank hardly?

For most content, ESO isn't truly a "trinity mmo" with rigidly defined tank, healer and dps roles. Roles in ESO have always been fluid because there is so much build diversity.

When it comes to normal dungeons, a full tank build isn't the most efficient approach. ZOS has exacerbated this issue by tuning content to be so easy to complete. But even back in 2015, I was duoing vet dungeons with a hybrid tank/dps/healer build.

As real tank ,i really dont want see run sax+pa/co/Tremorscale but 2~3dd total only 30-60k
and that 10 min dungreon run be 50 min
But this happens often

Orbital78 wrote: »

Why does no one want to tank hardly?

Normally, people don't want to tank (Or heal) in games because they're often less interestingly designed.

Like, you get a plethora of different ways to deal damage. Fun and interesting skill combos, different playstyles (Melee, Range, Caster), different ways of applying damage (DoTs vs Direct Damage) and plenty of interesting abilities.

While Tanks/Healers are normally made around a handful of basic skills that perform the role copy/pasted over and over between classes/builds. There is no excitement or interest with them, it's simply things like "Taunt the enemy every 15 seconds" and "Spam your defensive stuff" or "Use [Generic heal skill] when allies take damage". Even when games like FFXIV or WoW basically give Tanks/Healers a damage dealer rotation that just happens to apply their role stuff they always get the most bog standard rotations possible. (This is before we even get into the topic of actual build availability... Tanks have SnB + Ice Staff as their only weapon sets. Healers only have Resto Staff. DPS have DW/2H/Bow/Inferno Staff/Lightning Staff)

In addition, the discrepancy between roles impacts one of the most significant parts of the game. That is when you're solo questing. DPS will naturally quest much faster because they kill things quickly, so whether you're doing quests for the fun of questing or you're cranking out some daily garbage, being a full on DD build will get you doing it much faster (There are sometimes exceptions, some games have Tanks able to quest pretty efficiently due to being able to mass pull and AoE large groups of quest relevant enemies)

This discrepancy in soloability became most notable when MMO's started to make overlands into baby mode. Way back in the day, solo DD builds were pretty slow because of how much care they had to take with each enemy they attacked. They had to control them so they didn't get punched in the face and die, they had to position so they didn't pull more than one at a time or they got punched in the face and died, they had to stop and recover after fights to replenish health and resources (And be mindful of patrols or they got punched in the face and died). During this time, Tanks and Healers had equal solo speed but had much more leniency in gameplay because they specifically could handle multiple things which offset their lower damage output.

Then of course you get into the actual facets of playing each role in group content.

DPS provide a straight forward game plan. You punch things. They die. This comes with very easily observed effects of personal improvement (Both in terms of skill and gear) the better you get, the harder you punch and the faster things die.

With other roles however...

Both Tanks and Healers have this base notion of having players not die. The better you get... You aren't making others be any less dead, because being dead/alive is binary. So you don't get the direct feedback of improvement there. Normally what actually happens is the better you are... The more you can shift into doing more damage meaning the zero sum of peak Tank/Healer gameplay... Is to be a DPS.

Both Tanks and Healers also are based on support. Both roles will provide buffs to allies and debuffs to enemies... But these are all based on improving other people. So it doesn't matter if you're the best Tank/Healer to have ever graced the Earth and are playing at peak performance that only 0.00001% of people can even dream of... If you're supporting potato DPS that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag if they had explicit instructions highlighted infront of their face. The end result is that your performance still hinges on those DPS.

Finally, there's the stigma of responsibility. If someone dies? Its the healers fault. Never the fault of the idiot standing in the red, it's always the healer who couldn't heal stupid. The tank isn't holding aggro? No it's not the DPS that's spamming Taunt for some reason, it's the Tank is bad. DPS is low? Nah, it's the Tank/Healers fault somehow.

Thus it's often easier and most favourable for people to prefer to just play DPS. It provides a lot of direct benefits compared to Tank/Healer roles.

Interestingly, this overarching theme persists beyond the realm of MMO's too. It also affects other genres like MOBAs where Tank/Support roles face similar lack of interest for much the same reasons (With sometimes additional factors like in games such as Dota 2 or LoL the supports get less gold and thus less items making them even less interesting to play)

It's likely why GW2 decided to go with its "There is no trinity" concept and eschew standard "Tank" and "Healer" roles... Until it created its end-game instanced content whereby people ended up shifting into having dedicated "Tank" and "Healer" builds (Likely because of the realization that if you design group content where everyone is playing selfish DPS builds... There's no reason for it to be group content because with selfish DPS builds it makes 0 gameplay difference to be playing in a party or solo)

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

There is none. Seriously. You're asking for a technical control to apply to a HUMAN issue. ...

Indeed. It is a human problem. But there is still one solution and that is to remove the motivation that leads to the "human behavior".

So, remove the guaranteed 10 Transmute Crystals from the rewards.

Done. Problem solved. 🤷‍♂️

Except you still get people doing gear farming runs.

There's rarely a cure for human selfishness without punishing everyone.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

3. Despawn all non-boss enemies and extend the kickout timer after the last person leaves the group. This gives whoever is still in the instance a chance to grab any loot that was earned but missed. Alternatively, send a mail after the final boss kill with all unclaimed loot including unopened heavy sacks and chests.

Extend the timer, yes, but no on everything else. Despawning all the enemies and sending all the missed loot as a mail will only encourage more speedrunning. No need to keep an eye out for chests and heavy sacks. And hey, finish the dungeon and then have time to look at everything without having to fight, so why bother fighting those mobs to get to the end? Might as well just run through them.

Sometimes when there's one person running ahead, finding a chest or a heavy sack will slow them down and sometimes they then remain with the group. Mailing the loot would eliminate that.

Also, mailing the loot doesn't solve the problem of lore books that are tucked away in optional locations or difficult to get spots (I can remember that in one dungeon there was a lore book that required me to jump up onto something - nobody is going to do that in a pug, but I was able to do it after we'd completed the dungeon).

And, there are a couple of leads from the non-boss mobs in dungeons. If you despawn them all and there are still some left, a player can't take advantage of the extra time to try for that lead.

KISS is important here (Keep It Simple Stupid - I'm not calling you stupid, it was a title of a UI design book and the acronym has made it's way into common usage). No need to get fancy. Just extend the timer at the end and let players who take advantage of it do what they need to do.

Solution? That assumes it's a problem to begin with

-quote snipped for brevity-

AzuraFan wrote: »

Extend the timer, yes, but no on everything else.

The reason to despawn the adds is because they are designed for groups to clear and many players would have a lot of trouble clearing them without the help.

Speedrunning is a valid playstyle and a good way to grind out the gear with a group. So, it doesn't need to be discouraged. It just needs to not have large negative impacts on the people who don't want to do it. Those there for the story could use the story mode.

Have two modes when singing up in LFG:
1) quest mode / slow
2) grinding gear / fast

The fake tank issue would be solved if enemies hit WAY harder.
ESO doesn't need tanks because dungeon mobs hit like wet noodles.
Make mobs hit hard, and you will see people not signing up as fake tanks/ healers.

Other MMOs have extra rewards for roles that need filling. For example, if there is a need for more healers in LFR, there will be a notice with the extra reward displayed. It's usually gold and some other goodie.

I could see this making people want to play tanks and healers. Especially if they are rewarded special furniture that they can sell on guild traders. Or unique styles. Etc.
You *must* complete the dungeon entirely to receive the extra/ special rewards.

Whatever “solution” would hopefully not force one group to play another groups’ way. Story lovers should be able to enjoy the story and gear farmers should be able to farm gear. Why not have simple in game tools to help people play how they want?

AzuraFan wrote: »

Speedrunning does need to be discouraged or there wouldn't be so many complaint threads about it. It's only a good way to grind for gear for the speedrunner. It sucks for everyone else (unless the group has agreed to it).

Most of the frustration from it is stemming from missing out on things people wanted like chests and story quests. Those are the biggest complaints. I think a lot of people wouldn't mind a fast past if they weren't constantly missing out on stuff they needed.