Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

Berserk is additive with all of the other Damage Done mods.

Critical Damage and Critical Resist are their own term and are additive with each other.

(At least as of several years ago when they changed the formula behavior. Though, of course, it's good to specifically test things like the unique 46% from this set to see if it behaves as expected or not.)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

Berserk is additive with all of the other Damage Done mods.

Critical Damage and Critical Resist are their own term and are additive with each other.

(At least as of several years ago when they changed the formula behavior. Though, of course, it's good to specifically test things like the unique 46% from this set to see if it behaves as expected or not.)

Here is UESP's calc for damage (note that the 10.5 isnt really a great comparison because it leaves out individual skill scaling, but that is a whole different rant.)

EffectivePower =

(round(max Stam)/10.5) + max(SpellDamage, WeaponDamage))
* Crit
* WeaponCritDamage
*(1 - TargetResistsMitigation)
*(1 + TargetDamageTaken)
*(1 + DamageDone)

So Crit damage done is multiplied against your added up damage done sources. So efficiency of crit damage can change, but I ran the math on my build and you are talking about a 10% crit damage bonus now being worth 10.1% which probably gets rounded off anyways. >> the other multiplied sources will act in a similar fashion.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

Berserk is additive with all of the other Damage Done mods.

Critical Damage and Critical Resist are their own term and are additive with each other.

(At least as of several years ago when they changed the formula behavior. Though, of course, it's good to specifically test things like the unique 46% from this set to see if it behaves as expected or not.)

Here is UESP's calc for damage (note that the 10.5 isnt really a great comparison because it leaves out individual skill scaling, but that is a whole different rant.)

EffectivePower =

(round(max Stam)/10.5) + max(SpellDamage, WeaponDamage))
* Crit
* WeaponCritDamage
*(1 - TargetResistsMitigation)
*(1 + TargetDamageTaken)
*(1 + DamageDone)

So Crit damage done is multiplied against your added up damage done sources. So efficiency of crit damage can change, but I ran the math on my build and you are talking about a 10% crit damage bonus now being worth 10.1% which probably gets rounded off anyways. >> the other multiplied sources will act in a similar fashion.

Well, let's take Minor Berserk, Major Berserk, Minor Slayer, Major Slayer, Minor Vulnerability, Major Vulnerability, Minor Brittle, Major Brittle, and multiply each category together, additively, and multiplicatively:

1 * (1 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 0.75
1 * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1.977

Multiplicatively you get 22.7% more damage done than were it all additive.

This will continue to grow is strength depending on what other uniquely multiplicative sources of damage there is in the game. And increasing any additive portions will be influenced by other multiplicative sources, for Example arcanists Abyssal Ink (where does that fall on the damage calculation? It's a unique self-buff against a specific target)

Given that Damage against Monsters, Critical Damage taken, Damage taken from Players, Damage Dealt to Players are not categories on the UESP site calculator, I don't have total confidence in their equations being fully correct. But I may be naive given I haven't delved into how damage is calculated myself, and am simply "doomposting" about potential multiplicative oversights.

I wonder if Brittle acts as a multiplicative effect, or if it just reduces critical resistance by an amount (with the game handling negative critical resistance)? Does it allows critical damage to bypass the 125% self crit damage bonus cap?

Your multiplicative is incorrect. How it was handled before zos changed it to additive was a lossful multiplicative. Say we have a 10% and a 30% buff. This complication is why they changed it to be additive.

Additive is 10+30 = 40%
Old Mult would have been 100-(100*(1-0.30)*(1-0.10) ) = 37%

---

Again all %dmg adds up then multiplies against all %critdmg. Once it hits the enemy the enemy's crit mit is then subtracted from your %crtdmg.

You should really just spend an hour or so going on UESP's build tool and find answers. Take your build and apply minor force, then take it off and apply minor brittle to the enemy....... Is it the same? Most of your questions can be answered this way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.

If Berserk is multiplicative with the base damage, that is then multiplied by critical damage (on a crit), then yes, they interact with each other.

Berserk is additive with all of the other Damage Done mods.

Critical Damage and Critical Resist are their own term and are additive with each other.

(At least as of several years ago when they changed the formula behavior. Though, of course, it's good to specifically test things like the unique 46% from this set to see if it behaves as expected or not.)

Here is UESP's calc for damage (note that the 10.5 isnt really a great comparison because it leaves out individual skill scaling, but that is a whole different rant.)

EffectivePower =

(round(max Stam)/10.5) + max(SpellDamage, WeaponDamage))
* Crit
* WeaponCritDamage
*(1 - TargetResistsMitigation)
*(1 + TargetDamageTaken)
*(1 + DamageDone)

So Crit damage done is multiplied against your added up damage done sources. So efficiency of crit damage can change, but I ran the math on my build and you are talking about a 10% crit damage bonus now being worth 10.1% which probably gets rounded off anyways. >> the other multiplied sources will act in a similar fashion.

Well, let's take Minor Berserk, Major Berserk, Minor Slayer, Major Slayer, Minor Vulnerability, Major Vulnerability, Minor Brittle, Major Brittle, and multiply each category together, additively, and multiplicatively:

1 * (1 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 0.75
1 * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1.977

Multiplicatively you get 22.7% more damage done than were it all additive.

This will continue to grow is strength depending on what other uniquely multiplicative sources of damage there is in the game. And increasing any additive portions will be influenced by other multiplicative sources, for Example arcanists Abyssal Ink (where does that fall on the damage calculation? It's a unique self-buff against a specific target)

Given that Damage against Monsters, Critical Damage taken, Damage taken from Players, Damage Dealt to Players are not categories on the UESP site calculator, I don't have total confidence in their equations being fully correct. But I may be naive given I haven't delved into how damage is calculated myself, and am simply "doomposting" about potential multiplicative oversights.

I wonder if Brittle acts as a multiplicative effect, or if it just reduces critical resistance by an amount (with the game handling negative critical resistance)? Does it allows critical damage to bypass the 125% self crit damage bonus cap?

you would never put the base dmg and crit dmg ones together, they dont even apply during the same step in calculation

major/minor slayer and major/minor berserk would apply first because it influences base dmg

then the crit multipliers are added on top of that, if your skill crits

so order of operations:

1. you have a base dmg, say 1000
2. you apply dmg buffs (slayer/berserk, additive with each other)
3. you get new dmg, say 1300 (numbers are not actual calculations)
4. you attack target and your dmg rolls a crit
5. the dmg then gets multiplied by your crit multiplier, this is influenced by base crit dmg which is then additively affected by other buffs (brittle/force)
6. you get your final dmg output on target

based on this new set saying that it does -46% dmg, im assuming it would be applied during step 2, where its calculating your base dmg

i dont know 100% if dmg buffs applied in step 2 are additive or multiplicative with each other off hand

if it was additive, it would be -46% (lamp knight) + 15% (major/minor berserk) + 16% (malacaths band of brutality) would give you an overall dmg modifier of -15% (or well 0 if you include slayer, but i cant see this set ever being used in PVE so im excluding slayer buffs as those only apply to dungeon/trial/arena monsters)

Admittedly, I did go a bit off-topic talking generally in terms of multiplicative effects.

Do you see how step #2 and step #5 multiply against one another?

Where is something like Major/Minor Vulnerability added to those calculations? Is it its own multiplicative effect when calculating damage taken during the mitigation calculation? That is then also multiplied against Crit (and prior base damage increases)

And my concern is that something like Minor/Major Slayer might be in it's own multiplicative zone that compounds with things like Berserk (given it has its own conditional that the target cannot be a player), but is generally too small to notice when not part of a huge amount of additional and multiplicative effects.

I am skeptical of the UESP being 100% accurate, as it may make assumptions on formulas, and possibly not kept up to date with the addition of different types of % damage increase terminology sets, working under the assumption that they're being added in a certain manner, and infallible.

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Now that you mentioned it, I remembered that it can be viewed in the character menu.

Only set


Set + Malachath


Set + Malachath + minor bers + major bers

Ok cool, so the set works how I thought. It is just additive with other % damage done buffs.

So just to reiterrate where this set stands. You give up a 5 piece and -46% damage done to fully pen an enemy letting you drop a major breach skill slot. Your average 90% of players will be within 28k resists and about 22k resists. So the perfect pen nets you 42% to 33% damage done assuming other players dont hit breach on the target. If you assume maj/min breach on targets this nets you 19% to 10% damage done. So you need to make up a 5 piece bonus and 17% to 26% damage done if you are fighting 90% of players in pvp.

You can make up the 5 piece bonus by going Nirn Greatsword for 494wd (keep in mind, only on that bar). Then you can slot a skill to try and make up for the 17% to 26% damage loss

---

Zos needs to change the damage done reduction down to atleast 30% for the set to be viable against the top end of tanky players. This value against the middle and low end of players would basically be equivalent to a 400wd set only on your damage bar with major build restrictions and a bad 2-3 piece. Considering this is a pvp specific set, zos should change the max stam bonuses to crit resist.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Now that you mentioned it, I remembered that it can be viewed in the character menu.

Only set


Set + Malachath


Set + Malachath + minor bers + major bers

Ok cool, so the set works how I thought. It is just additive with other % damage done buffs.

So just to reiterrate where this set stands. You give up a 5 piece and -46% damage done to fully pen an enemy letting you drop a major breach skill slot. Your average 90% of players will be within 28k resists and about 22k resists. So the perfect pen nets you 42% to 33% damage done assuming other players dont hit breach on the target. If you assume maj/min breach on targets this nets you 19% to 10% damage done. So you need to make up a 5 piece bonus and 17% to 26% damage done if you are fighting 90% of players in pvp.

You can make up the 5 piece bonus by going Nirn Greatsword for 494wd (keep in mind, only on that bar). Then you can slot a skill to try and make up for the 17% to 26% damage loss

---

Zos needs to change the damage done reduction down to atleast 30% for the set to be viable against the top end of tanky players. This value against the middle and low end of players would basically be equivalent to a 400wd set only on your damage bar with major build restrictions and a bad 2-3 piece. Considering this is a pvp specific set, zos should change the max stam bonuses to crit resist.

is that still taking into account how the other buffs offset the -dmg?

major/minor berserk for example counters 15% of the self debuff alone, would that be "making up" some of that approximate 17-26% loss of dmg for people running less than 30k armor?

I am evaluating this set for what it gives and takes. To make up that 17% to 26% damage loss you can slot a skill by dropping a major breach skill. Do you know of any skills that give damage done equivalent to 17% to 26%? I don't

I can only take those buffs into account if you gain those buffs by slotting a skill to replace the unnecessary major breach.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Now that you mentioned it, I remembered that it can be viewed in the character menu.

Only set


Set + Malachath


Set + Malachath + minor bers + major bers

Ok cool, so the set works how I thought. It is just additive with other % damage done buffs.

So just to reiterrate where this set stands. You give up a 5 piece and -46% damage done to fully pen an enemy letting you drop a major breach skill slot. Your average 90% of players will be within 28k resists and about 22k resists. So the perfect pen nets you 42% to 33% damage done assuming other players dont hit breach on the target. If you assume maj/min breach on targets this nets you 19% to 10% damage done. So you need to make up a 5 piece bonus and 17% to 26% damage done if you are fighting 90% of players in pvp.

You can make up the 5 piece bonus by going Nirn Greatsword for 494wd (keep in mind, only on that bar). Then you can slot a skill to try and make up for the 17% to 26% damage loss

---

Zos needs to change the damage done reduction down to atleast 30% for the set to be viable against the top end of tanky players. This value against the middle and low end of players would basically be equivalent to a 400wd set only on your damage bar with major build restrictions and a bad 2-3 piece. Considering this is a pvp specific set, zos should change the max stam bonuses to crit resist.

is that still taking into account how the other buffs offset the -dmg?

major/minor berserk for example counters 15% of the self debuff alone, would that be "making up" some of that approximate 17-26% loss of dmg for people running less than 30k armor?

I am evaluating this set for what it gives and takes. To make up that 17% to 26% damage loss you can slot a skill by dropping a major breach skill. Do you know of any skills that give damage done equivalent to 17% to 26%? I don't

I can only take those buffs into account if you gain those buffs by slotting a skill to replace the unnecessary major breach.

scribing i believe can fairly easily provide one or the other, depending on which scribing skill you go with (i think some can do minor berserk and some can do major)

camo hunter also can do minor berserk if you hit an enemy from flanks/behind

minor berserk is definitely easier to source in most cases but dont think it should be a huge stretch to get both sourced

it would probably be nice to have some actual testing done to see how much dmg loss you would have to make up depending on enemy armor (18.2k armor can be tested from the 6 mil dummies, but would need to find another player to test armor between 20 and 33k)

i like discussing the numbers and such too, but might be better to see how it actually handles in practice

for example running around in cyro, you can almost guarantee your target will have major breach on them due to the prevalence of ele sus, you would have a lot more control over whats on your target in say a duel

Rapid Strikes Without Malacath/Deadly/LKA/Minor Berserk/Sundering Banner (With Sorc Passive)


Rapid Strikes with Malacath/Deadly/LKA/Minor Berserk/Sundering Banner (With Sorc Passive)


Deadly Strikes: Increase the Damage your Damage over Time and Channeled Abilities do by +15%
Sorc Energize: Increase your Physical and Lightning Damage by 5%
Sundering Banner: Increase your Martial damage by 6%, With Minor Berserk 5% (passive effect)
Malacath: Increase your damage done by 16%, decrease Critical damage by 50%

Sorc Amplitude: Increase your damage done by 1% for each 10% health a target has (Not reflected in Tooltip)
Rapid Strikes: Increase subsequent tick damage by 5% (not reflected in Tooltip)

screengrab of some flurry ticks against a target skelly


I am not using things like Brutality, or any food at the moment, with no attribute points allocated, or champion points allocated, no mundus, and not using Nirnhorned weapons, nor using any WD/SD jewelry glyphs.

Pretty sure this means you could fairly easily get a Sorc in Heavy armor outputting 4K DPS with just Flurry spam. (Me dumb, these sets are medium only)

I wonder if the added Crux damage for Runecarver would be additive with this set, or multiplicative?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Now that you mentioned it, I remembered that it can be viewed in the character menu.

Only set


Set + Malachath


Set + Malachath + minor bers + major bers

Ok cool, so the set works how I thought. It is just additive with other % damage done buffs.

So just to reiterrate where this set stands. You give up a 5 piece and -46% damage done to fully pen an enemy letting you drop a major breach skill slot. Your average 90% of players will be within 28k resists and about 22k resists. So the perfect pen nets you 42% to 33% damage done assuming other players dont hit breach on the target. If you assume maj/min breach on targets this nets you 19% to 10% damage done. So you need to make up a 5 piece bonus and 17% to 26% damage done if you are fighting 90% of players in pvp.

You can make up the 5 piece bonus by going Nirn Greatsword for 494wd (keep in mind, only on that bar). Then you can slot a skill to try and make up for the 17% to 26% damage loss

---

Zos needs to change the damage done reduction down to atleast 30% for the set to be viable against the top end of tanky players. This value against the middle and low end of players would basically be equivalent to a 400wd set only on your damage bar with major build restrictions and a bad 2-3 piece. Considering this is a pvp specific set, zos should change the max stam bonuses to crit resist.

is that still taking into account how the other buffs offset the -dmg?

major/minor berserk for example counters 15% of the self debuff alone, would that be "making up" some of that approximate 17-26% loss of dmg for people running less than 30k armor?

I am evaluating this set for what it gives and takes. To make up that 17% to 26% damage loss you can slot a skill by dropping a major breach skill. Do you know of any skills that give damage done equivalent to 17% to 26%? I don't

I can only take those buffs into account if you gain those buffs by slotting a skill to replace the unnecessary major breach.

scribing i believe can fairly easily provide one or the other, depending on which scribing skill you go with (i think some can do minor berserk and some can do major)

camo hunter also can do minor berserk if you hit an enemy from flanks/behind

minor berserk is definitely easier to source in most cases but dont think it should be a huge stretch to get both sourced

it would probably be nice to have some actual testing done to see how much dmg loss you would have to make up depending on enemy armor (18.2k armor can be tested from the 6 mil dummies, but would need to find another player to test armor between 20 and 33k)

i like discussing the numbers and such too, but might be better to see how it actually handles in practice

for example running around in cyro, you can almost guarantee your target will have major breach on them due to the prevalence of ele sus, you would have a lot more control over whats on your target in say a duel

The other thing to think about is, what is the use case of this set? What purpose does it fill? The idea of perfect pen is supposed to be more useful against tanky targets and not against squishy targets. Ok well then what is your tanky threshold to become worth it. If it is only worth running on targets at 50k resists lets answer our questions. The use case of this set is to be a pvp specific set that only kills one niche style of tanks. These tanks will be playing in large groups and will 100% of the time have breach applied to them.

What about a 20k resist player..... this use case is a new player or a one shot invis gank meme build. For the new player they will be in large zerg combat and have breach on them 100% of the time.

Really the only case where an enemy doesnt have breach is if you are dueling in stormhaven or if you got ganked in a field.

---

It comes down to what is your threshold where you think this set should be worth a 5 piece set and when should it be worth less than a 5 piece set. By my calcs if we assume the skill you choose to replace breach adds 10% damage done, that means a -39% value would set the threshold to be worth a 5 piece against 28k armor players which is the farthest top end of 90% of pvp builds. At this value if you fought a 22k resist player it would be as if you had no 5 piece armor slotted. Threshold wise 35% probably would be the best middleground now that I worked through it.

i think this set is going to be pretty difficult to balance honestly, if they lower the dmg penalty too much then its going to 100% be meta to run that and then everyones dmg will skyrocket because nobody will be building for/into pen (all of those stats will go towards max hp, dmg, crit, or max resources)

the current self penalty though i agree might almost be too high, because 50% is basically armor cap and -46% puts a high bar of 30,500 for armor

if say we used your self debuff of -35% instead of 46%, then the "threshold" before you start losing dmg would be 23170 armor

that would mean you wouldnt incur a true dmg penalty until the enemy was under 23,170 resistances, which honestly feels almost too low, like at this point i would assume it would become meta if it covered 90% of the players in cyro for you to ignore armor with virtually 0 dmg penalty (or even overall increase dmg if the enemy was running more armor)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYvx_uD6OWo
Who know formulas, please analyze the damage numbers. It seems to me that "Reduce your damage done by 46%" adds up additively with other damage sources, and this opens up great opportunities for increasing damage.

Thanks, doesnt the damage done stat show up in the extra stats of your character menu? It should just be clearly additive there.

Now that you mentioned it, I remembered that it can be viewed in the character menu.

Only set


Set + Malachath


Set + Malachath + minor bers + major bers

Ok cool, so the set works how I thought. It is just additive with other % damage done buffs.

So just to reiterrate where this set stands. You give up a 5 piece and -46% damage done to fully pen an enemy letting you drop a major breach skill slot. Your average 90% of players will be within 28k resists and about 22k resists. So the perfect pen nets you 42% to 33% damage done assuming other players dont hit breach on the target. If you assume maj/min breach on targets this nets you 19% to 10% damage done. So you need to make up a 5 piece bonus and 17% to 26% damage done if you are fighting 90% of players in pvp.

You can make up the 5 piece bonus by going Nirn Greatsword for 494wd (keep in mind, only on that bar). Then you can slot a skill to try and make up for the 17% to 26% damage loss

---

Zos needs to change the damage done reduction down to atleast 30% for the set to be viable against the top end of tanky players. This value against the middle and low end of players would basically be equivalent to a 400wd set only on your damage bar with major build restrictions and a bad 2-3 piece. Considering this is a pvp specific set, zos should change the max stam bonuses to crit resist.

is that still taking into account how the other buffs offset the -dmg?

major/minor berserk for example counters 15% of the self debuff alone, would that be "making up" some of that approximate 17-26% loss of dmg for people running less than 30k armor?

I am evaluating this set for what it gives and takes. To make up that 17% to 26% damage loss you can slot a skill by dropping a major breach skill. Do you know of any skills that give damage done equivalent to 17% to 26%? I don't

I can only take those buffs into account if you gain those buffs by slotting a skill to replace the unnecessary major breach.

scribing i believe can fairly easily provide one or the other, depending on which scribing skill you go with (i think some can do minor berserk and some can do major)

camo hunter also can do minor berserk if you hit an enemy from flanks/behind

minor berserk is definitely easier to source in most cases but dont think it should be a huge stretch to get both sourced

it would probably be nice to have some actual testing done to see how much dmg loss you would have to make up depending on enemy armor (18.2k armor can be tested from the 6 mil dummies, but would need to find another player to test armor between 20 and 33k)

i like discussing the numbers and such too, but might be better to see how it actually handles in practice

for example running around in cyro, you can almost guarantee your target will have major breach on them due to the prevalence of ele sus, you would have a lot more control over whats on your target in say a duel

The other thing to think about is, what is the use case of this set? What purpose does it fill? The idea of perfect pen is supposed to be more useful against tanky targets and not against squishy targets. Ok well then what is your tanky threshold to become worth it. If it is only worth running on targets at 50k resists lets answer our questions. The use case of this set is to be a pvp specific set that only kills one niche style of tanks. These tanks will be playing in large groups and will 100% of the time have breach applied to them.

What about a 20k resist player..... this use case is a new player or a one shot invis gank meme build. For the new player they will be in large zerg combat and have breach on them 100% of the time.

Really the only case where an enemy doesnt have breach is if you are dueling in stormhaven or if you got ganked in a field.

---

It comes down to what is your threshold where you think this set should be worth a 5 piece set and when should it be worth less than a 5 piece set. By my calcs if we assume the skill you choose to replace breach adds 10% damage done, that means a -39% value would set the threshold to be worth a 5 piece against 28k armor players which is the farthest top end of 90% of pvp builds. At this value if you fought a 22k resist player it would be as if you had no 5 piece armor slotted. Threshold wise 35% probably would be the best middleground now that I worked through it.

i think this set is going to be pretty difficult to balance honestly, if they lower the dmg penalty too much then its going to 100% be meta to run that and then everyones dmg will skyrocket because nobody will be building for/into pen (all of those stats will go towards max hp, dmg, crit, or max resources)

the current self penalty though i agree might almost be too high, because 50% is basically armor cap and -46% puts a high bar of 30,500 for armor

if say we used your self debuff of -35% instead of 46%, then the "threshold" before you start losing dmg would be 23170 armor

that would mean you wouldnt incur a true dmg penalty until the enemy was under 23,170 resistances, which honestly feels almost too low, like at this point i would assume it would become meta if it covered 90% of the players in cyro for you to ignore armor with virtually 0 dmg penalty (or even overall increase dmg if the enemy was running more armor)

Well anything under the threshold is losing damage. If I run hundings instead of running rallying cry I lost "damage" because I lost the 1650crit resists worth. The point of my threshold there is that you would be hitting a 28k player equivalent to running a 494wd set(the damage gained on the nirn sword bar.) Anything less than 28k resists and you are losing damage compared to just running a different 5 piece set.

I conducted several tests on a dummy. As far as I know, the dummy has 18,200 resistance, or in other terms, 36.4% mitigation, which is roughly equivalent to 24,000 resistance for a player. All stats except penetration naturally remained consistent in each test.

First test (without Lamp Knight's Art)
My penetration: 0
My percentage damage bonus: 28%
Damage to the dummy: 1,616

Second test (with Lamp Knight's Art)
My penetration: 100,000
My percentage damage bonus: 28% (or -18% on the character stats screen)
Damage to the dummy: 1,628

From this, we can conclude that with 24,000 player armor, you'll need to build around 28% percentage damage build to deal the same damage as without the Lamp Knight's Art set. The higher the player's armor, the less percentage damage you'll need, and vice versa.

The goal of this test for myself was to evaluate the viability of the set for deeper theorycrafting in the future, so I deliberately ignored many nuances to save time for now (e.g., in real PvP scenarios, you are unlikely to have 0 penetration).

My conclusions are as follows:

The set is definitely not dead upon its arrival.
The set requires a specific build made around it.
The set works effectively with modifiers that add percentage damage.
It’s hard to say if the set has a chance to become meta and how quickly, as finding an optimal build will take time, and people who invest time in perfecting a build (if one is found) are unlikely to share it immediately.
The set looks like an interesting alternative to existing builds, at the same time it doesn't look like a trash set in my opinion, and I will definitely try to make something out of it on the live server.

i11ionward wrote: »

From this, we can conclude that with 24,000 player armor, you'll need to build around 28% percentage damage build to deal the same damage as without the Lamp Knight's Art set.

Thanks for the test, it's much easier to source 24k pen than 28% raw on a PvP build. Seems like a heavy investment just to get back to par, you'd need even more raw % to see a good return, and you'd be getting stuffed by opponents with raw % mitigation. Cool set concept though, would love to see it get some better tuning.

i11ionward wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

I conducted several tests on a dummy. As far as I know, the dummy has 18,200 resistance, or in other terms, 36.4% mitigation, which is roughly equivalent to 24,000 resistance for a player. All stats except penetration naturally remained consistent in each test.

First test (without Lamp Knight's Art)
My penetration: 0
My percentage damage bonus: 28%
Damage to the dummy: 1,616

Second test (with Lamp Knight's Art)
My penetration: 100,000
My percentage damage bonus: 28% (or -18% on the character stats screen)
Damage to the dummy: 1,628

From this, we can conclude that with 24,000 player armor, you'll need to build around 28% percentage damage build to deal the same damage as without the Lamp Knight's Art set. The higher the player's armor, the less percentage damage you'll need, and vice versa.

The goal of this test for myself was to evaluate the viability of the set for deeper theorycrafting in the future, so I deliberately ignored many nuances to save time for now (e.g., in real PvP scenarios, you are unlikely to have 0 penetration).

My conclusions are as follows:

The set is definitely not dead upon its arrival.
The set requires a specific build made around it.
The set works effectively with modifiers that add percentage damage.
It’s hard to say if the set has a chance to become meta and how quickly, as finding an optimal build will take time, and people who invest time in perfecting a build (if one is found) are unlikely to share it immediately.
The set looks like an interesting alternative to existing builds, at the same time it doesn't look like a trash set in my opinion, and I will definitely try to make something out of it on the live server.

FYI you can use 2h berserkers rage(not onslaught cuz its broken) to measure a target dummy's resists.

What did you change between the tests? Are you saying you slotted a swift jewelry with no enchant to get the 5 piece and that was it? Math wise this would make no sense to do equivalent damage against a ~18k resists enemy.

I have checked according to your recommendation, and the dummy indeed has 18,200 resistance. You can see this in the video, and these resistances amount to 36.4% mitigation. You can calculate this by looking at the numbers in the screenshot: 1283/2017 = 0.636, 1 - 0.636 = 0.364 or 36.4%.

You might say that my test doesn't have math sense, and you'd be right — I wasn't trying to prove anything mathematically. I simply came up with a clear and simple test for myself to determine the potential of a set for my own purposes. Then, I just shared my thoughts with the community.

You can choose to take my test seriously or not, but I’m sorry, I do not wish to continue the discussion on this matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnRrRRdRa30

It was more of, your test shows that my math doesn't make sense. Which was why I was asking what changed between your hits. My math showed that when you slot the set, you should be down alot of damage unless you hit a 30-40k resists player. Your in game test showed equivalent damage after slotting the set against an 18k enemy, which means this set would be insane.