Lamp Knight's Art makes no sense.

Avran_Sylt · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think this set has potential to be actually broken & more OP than it seems to look. Why ? Cuz 5 Piece bonus looks more like something you would see in a mythic item, rather than a regular set. Just Compare it to Malacath's Band of Brutality:
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 16% but decreases your Critical Damage done by 50%.

Here you basically ignore armour, regardless of how much armour target has. It works on every type of DMG. You target simply does not have armour, as it is impossible to stack this much. So basically, all your DMG is kinda like Oblivion DMG. Let it sink for a while. Many Mythic items are weaker than this set. Take Gaze of Sithis for example. It pales in comparison. It is all about Opportunity Cost... and here it is just launching into space...

The drawback is that you are doing 46% less damage, but that penalty can be mitigated or heavily reduced by "pumping up" critical chance and critical damage done & / or using a lot of DOT abilities.

If you have high crit chance or for example you are ganking, chances are you will be able to kill 40+ Health tanks and almost one shot players with 30 - 35K health. All you need really is to line-up burst. Set like this may be kinda broken on a gank build (even ranged ones) and Sorcs with streak & shields could also be very strong with this set. DOT builds with high crit chance also will be able to put insane pressure even on a very tanky opponents.

I think that the only builds that may be least "susceptible" (but they would fee it) would be builds that focus on blocking and using DMG shields. As far as I am aware, penetration does not affects damage shields. You always do same dmg to shield (it is just a "fake" health bar). So you will basically hit for example Sorc with shield for 46% DMG less while not utilizing Pen.

If you think about it, this set alone kinda puts to shame every Oblivion damage set in the game.

Probably it is going to be nerfed, but only when new Dungeon DLC will obtainable with Crowns. At least this is my guess lol

So I guess... all of ESO+ users should enjoy it while it lasts

Like yandere pointed out shields act like normal health in terms of mitigation and penetration.

In no way does the crit affect this set or become more valuable than running a pen build with the same crit bonuses.
Really it is you gain pen equal to the enemy's resists which equates to roughly 29%-23% damage done based on average pvp builds. You lose 46% damage done. The extra benefit is from running nirn Gsword instead of sharp maul, so you gain 494wd which basically equates to a 5 piece bonus that you could have slotted without running this set from the start. Then it boils down to dropping major breach skills to make up for the 17%-23% damage done loss.

As it stands I cannot think of a single skill that can make up for 17%-23% damage done. Maybe banner with 6% damage done+cavalier+courage..... but even then that has its own -33% flat regen cut.

Zos would have to change the set to be a 30% damage cut to make the set worth a 300-500wd set basically. 25% would make more sense in terms of how it limits the rest of your build to certain choices. Also the max stam 2 and 3 piece bonuses are the worst possible stat line in todays meta. Crit, wd, or crit resist would be nice to see on more sets considering this is a pvp specific set.

If you drop major breach skills, how more viable are Oakensoul 1-bar builds with an additional skill slot open? (which would also remove the need for several other self-buff skills).

Just_Attivi · January 14

I think theres potential in the idea, but I do think 46% is too much. but this also depends on how it interacts with other damage calculations (I saw some people were mathing things out, its too late in the day for me to bother with that, so sorry if youve already figured every which way it might land in the damage calc)

without doing the math, I do think moving it closer to 35% would likely make this set good. Alternatively, if it cut damage in half but made damage bypass shields and resistance like oblivion damage, then youd have a niche set for lower damage output but it could potentially out pace shield spammers, maybe taking the place that snake in the stars originally would have had before it got nuked. (obviously, math needs to be done for balancing in this case, too).

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · January 14

Stack this set with Shield Breaker,

(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Increases your damage done by 6%. This effect is doubled when attacking targets with a damage shield active.

then use a Nirn Greatsword/ or other Nirn weapon, all Infused wpn damage on the Jewelry, Monster set like Kena (for the on demand Overload) or Slimecraw (5% minor Berserk) and You can use a Mythic like Oakensoul and use a Monster 1 pc with weapon/spell damage on it. Use some fighter skills. Dark Elf/Orc/High elf (because of wpn/spel dmg racial passive) or Khajiit for Crit. for the Race.

It's Possible, don't worry One of you guys will figure it out. Then they will Nerf it.

MincMincMinc · January 14

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

PvP damage builds aren't my thing but, would it be viable when working with a group and using it on just one bar?

Have Bar A for killing people that don't have any armor and Have Bar B for killing people running tons of armor.

You'd be bad against people with less extreme amounts but, if you are in a group that might not be a big issue?

Look at some of my other comments, basically this set is a net loss of 17% damage done against your average tanky player and a 23% loss against your average squishy player. It hardly goes even with tanky builds. Not to mention this is just to go even..... you still wasted a 5 piece that you need to make up for. If you swap to nirn Gsword thats 494 damage which makes up for the 5 piece bonus lost. Then the only other trade would be to drop your breach skill for some damage buff skill. Currently I dont know of any damage buff skills that could make up 17-23% damage done.

How this set implements with groups is even worse. More group members means more of a chance they will not be wearing this set and will be using breach and sunder(minor breach)......... Effectively making your set less efficient.

This is why I would say to change the 46% to 30%

Thumbless_Bot · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

PvP damage builds aren't my thing but, would it be viable when working with a group and using it on just one bar?

Have Bar A for killing people that don't have any armor and Have Bar B for killing people running tons of armor.

You'd be bad against people with less extreme amounts but, if you are in a group that might not be a big issue?

Look at some of my other comments, basically this set is a net loss of 17% damage done against your average tanky player and a 23% loss against your average squishy player. It hardly goes even with tanky builds. Not to mention this is just to go even..... you still wasted a 5 piece that you need to make up for. If you swap to nirn Gsword thats 494 damage which makes up for the 5 piece bonus lost. Then the only other trade would be to drop your breach skill for some damage buff skill. Currently I dont know of any damage buff skills that could make up 17-23% damage done.

How this set implements with groups is even worse. More group members means more of a chance they will not be wearing this set and will be using breach and sunder(minor breach)......... Effectively making your set less efficient.

This is why I would say to change the 46% to 30%

Maybe, instead of changing the flat damage nerf from 46 to whatever, the set could also reduce block mitigation by x... I think this is in line with the intended tank buster nature of the set and would prevent it from being op. Also, it would be very interesting for build diversity and make pvp that much more fun.

I mean. If tank buster is the intention of the set anyway.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think this set has potential to be actually broken & more OP than it seems to look. Why ? Cuz 5 Piece bonus looks more like something you would see in a mythic item, rather than a regular set. Just Compare it to Malacath's Band of Brutality:
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 16% but decreases your Critical Damage done by 50%.

Here you basically ignore armour, regardless of how much armour target has. It works on every type of DMG. You target simply does not have armour, as it is impossible to stack this much. So basically, all your DMG is kinda like Oblivion DMG. Let it sink for a while. Many Mythic items are weaker than this set. Take Gaze of Sithis for example. It pales in comparison. It is all about Opportunity Cost... and here it is just launching into space...

The drawback is that you are doing 46% less damage, but that penalty can be mitigated or heavily reduced by "pumping up" critical chance and critical damage done & / or using a lot of DOT abilities.

If you have high crit chance or for example you are ganking, chances are you will be able to kill 40+ Health tanks and almost one shot players with 30 - 35K health. All you need really is to line-up burst. Set like this may be kinda broken on a gank build (even ranged ones) and Sorcs with streak & shields could also be very strong with this set. DOT builds with high crit chance also will be able to put insane pressure even on a very tanky opponents.

I think that the only builds that may be least "susceptible" (but they would fee it) would be builds that focus on blocking and using DMG shields. As far as I am aware, penetration does not affects damage shields. You always do same dmg to shield (it is just a "fake" health bar). So you will basically hit for example Sorc with shield for 46% DMG less while not utilizing Pen.

If you think about it, this set alone kinda puts to shame every Oblivion damage set in the game.

Probably it is going to be nerfed, but only when new Dungeon DLC will obtainable with Crowns. At least this is my guess lol

So I guess... all of ESO+ users should enjoy it while it lasts

Like yandere pointed out shields act like normal health in terms of mitigation and penetration.

In no way does the crit affect this set or become more valuable than running a pen build with the same crit bonuses.
Really it is you gain pen equal to the enemy's resists which equates to roughly 29%-23% damage done based on average pvp builds. You lose 46% damage done. The extra benefit is from running nirn Gsword instead of sharp maul, so you gain 494wd which basically equates to a 5 piece bonus that you could have slotted without running this set from the start. Then it boils down to dropping major breach skills to make up for the 17%-23% damage done loss.

As it stands I cannot think of a single skill that can make up for 17%-23% damage done. Maybe banner with 6% damage done+cavalier+courage..... but even then that has its own -33% flat regen cut.

Zos would have to change the set to be a 30% damage cut to make the set worth a 300-500wd set basically. 25% would make more sense in terms of how it limits the rest of your build to certain choices. Also the max stam 2 and 3 piece bonuses are the worst possible stat line in todays meta. Crit, wd, or crit resist would be nice to see on more sets considering this is a pvp specific set.

If you drop major breach skills, how more viable are Oakensoul 1-bar builds with an additional skill slot open? (which would also remove the need for several other self-buff skills).

Well for starters oakensoul is its own trade that IMO is not worth it. Then you are still making the same trades I listed before trying to make up for 17%-23% on average (90%) of enemies youd pvp against.

Just_Attivi wrote: »

I think theres potential in the idea, but I do think 46% is too much. but this also depends on how it interacts with other damage calculations (I saw some people were mathing things out, its too late in the day for me to bother with that, so sorry if youve already figured every which way it might land in the damage calc)

without doing the math, I do think moving it closer to 35% would likely make this set good. Alternatively, if it cut damage in half but made damage bypass shields and resistance like oblivion damage, then youd have a niche set for lower damage output but it could potentially out pace shield spammers, maybe taking the place that snake in the stars originally would have had before it got nuked. (obviously, math needs to be done for balancing in this case, too).

So how I would break it down for zos to choose I would pick 3 different resist thresholds and assume major/minor breach in PvP assuming this isn't a duel set. Based on my 1vX build to a light armor build, the average player is between 28k resists and 24k resists. A smart tank that builds efficiently will at most be at 36k with the rest of his tank "engine" in heals or returns. Also assume dropping Sharp Maul for Nirn Gsword 494wd is your 5 piece equivalent. Dropping breach from your bar and slotting another skill makes up a 8% damage done at best if you can find another damage buff skill.

24k (45% of enemies) - the debuff should be 30%
28k (45% of enemies) - the debuff should be 35%
28k+ (~10% of enemies) - the debuff should be 40%

This basically makes the set worth 494wd only on one bar. While also pigeonholing the rest of your build to follow along. Ideally since it pigeonholes you should probably bring the values I listed above down by another 5%. Also as I mentioned before, this is a pvp only set, max stam is practically worthless these days. This is due to free regen everywhere and bad scaling. Replace the max stam with a pvp unique stat like crit resist.

Necrotech_Master · January 14

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

MincMincMinc · January 14

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

Again the problem is that 90% of players even on their defensive bar in pvp sit at or below 28k resists or 19k resists when breached (everyone not running this set will have major breach, all phys damage procs minor breach) This aspect can't really be ignored because it drastically lowers how effective the set is against the vast majority of enemies as I pointed out above.

Its fairly rare that you'll ever come across someone above 30k resists post debuff who is even worth spending time attacking.

Necrotech_Master · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

Again the problem is that 90% of players even on their defensive bar in pvp sit at or below 28k resists or 19k resists when breached (everyone not running this set will have major breach, all phys damage procs minor breach) This aspect can't really be ignored because it drastically lowers how effective the set is against the vast majority of enemies as I pointed out above.

Its fairly rare that you'll ever come across someone above 30k resists post debuff who is even worth spending time attacking.

no i agree, the set while it sounds good on paper (yay 100k pen, i can ignore armor), but when you factor in the constant -46% dmg done and look at the math on a surface level its pretty easy to see that it wont be worth it in general

the character i normally run around with in cyro only has about 23k resists at tops with major/minor resolve running lol, i figure even more optimized players are probably only gonna be in the 25-30k range which would still just be under the line of effectiveness for lamp knight without debuffs

even if they changed the -dmg to be scaling based on armor ignored up to -46% cap, it still likely wouldnt be the meta, but at least it wouldnt incur a major dmg loss on anything lower than 30,500 armor

i11ionward · January 14

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

Again the problem is that 90% of players even on their defensive bar in pvp sit at or below 28k resists or 19k resists when breached (everyone not running this set will have major breach, all phys damage procs minor breach) This aspect can't really be ignored because it drastically lowers how effective the set is against the vast majority of enemies as I pointed out above.

Its fairly rare that you'll ever come across someone above 30k resists post debuff who is even worth spending time attacking.

no i agree, the set while it sounds good on paper (yay 100k pen, i can ignore armor), but when you factor in the constant -46% dmg done and look at the math on a surface level its pretty easy to see that it wont be worth it in general

the character i normally run around with in cyro only has about 23k resists at tops with major/minor resolve running lol, i figure even more optimized players are probably only gonna be in the 25-30k range which would still just be under the line of effectiveness for lamp knight without debuffs

even if they changed the -dmg to be scaling based on armor ignored up to -46% cap, it still likely wouldnt be the meta, but at least it wouldnt incur a major dmg loss on anything lower than 30,500 armor

Yeah someone had suggested to me that they should change the verbiage to be less noob trapy. WOW 100000000000 pen is so strong that must be the best set in the game! "ignore your enemy's resists, but lower your damage done by XX%"

the 28k resists for your tanky pvper comes from the meta build of Acuity+rallying 5m 1reinH 1light backbar frost staff or s&b basically gets you to 28k on the backbar in most setups. Frontbar resists on this setup drop down to around 22k resists which REALLY doesnt help out the math for Lamp.

Necrotech_Master · January 14

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

MincMincMinc · January 14

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · January 14

Shattered Fate and Breach is better than Lamp Knight's Art in probably 95%+ of PvP encounters.

The number of players that stack 40k+ armor nowadays is very low. Most mitigation comes from damage reduction like Contingency, Protection, CP, etc. You can get something like 40-50% damage reduction just from CP. Also, damage shields are extremely common now so you don't need to build so heavily into armor anymore.

This set is going to be dead on arrival unless the damage reduction is brought down.

Mayrael · January 14

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

True but...

Currently to bypass such amount of armor you'd need to build for it (invest all in penetration). With this set you can slot 5pc and with all the rest go into s/w damage or crit damage/chance which will result in much more than just 4% damage gain when compared to current builds.

Let's not forget that one set shouldn't give to much because it will become meta in no time and everyone will run it which is not good.

Edit:
Tldr;
This set will give you permanent more damage against armored targets and lower damage against light and medium armor damage.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · January 14

There are some other names for this set but I've edited them out

MincMincMinc · January 14

Mayrael wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from my estimations, the cutoff pt for breaking even on dmg would be 30,500 armor

30,500 armor is where the enemy has 46% dmg mitigation from armor

this set ignores armor for -46% dmg done, so seems appropriate

if the enemy armor is less than 30,500, you still see dmg loss (ramping up the dmg penalty the less armor the enemy has)

the max net gain is 4% more dmg, which you would see only when the enemy is running anything over 30,500 armor (so 33,000+ armor you would see the 4% dmg gain)

True but...

Currently to bypass such amount of armor you'd need to build for it (invest all in penetration). With this set you can slot 5pc and with all the rest go into s/w damage or crit damage/chance which will result in much more than just 4% damage gain when compared to current builds.

Let's not forget that one set shouldn't give to much because it will become meta in no time and everyone will run it which is not good.

Edit:
Tldr;
This set will give you permanent more damage against armored targets and lower damage against light and medium armor damage.

I already took that into account if you go back through my posts. You basically drop sharp maul for nirn greatsword = 494wd == essentially a 5 piece set bonus with build restrictions. The other benefit is you dont need to run major breach with ele sus or ransack. However because of the harsh damage done loss you have to essentially make up for 17-23% damage done with this skill against 90% of the enemies you will come across. Which if you can find me an additional skill that nets me 20% damage done let me know.

Currently the set will only be slightly worth it against the 1 in a million chance you come up against a resist based tank in pvp. Which, lets be honest, do you really even care to fight that guy in the first place?

Tommy_The_Gun · January 14

Honestly ? I would sincerely want to be wrong. I would rather have set that is a niche / curiosity rather than another meta set.

While I do agree that "mathematically", using Excel Balancing spreadsheet, this set may look weak. But like many things in ESO, raw math in not everything. It would require testing for sure.

The thing is that I don't play this game since yesterday (more like since 2014). And... I just know BS when I see it. And here, red warning light went on.

My 1st reaction was: What is the easiest way to by-pass / reduce the 46% damage reduction penalty of this set ? And imminently I thought about Critical Damage. At base, if you crit, it boost your damage by 50%. So with high enough critical chance (that is very easy to build up), you can kinda almost reduce this penalty to 0 at a cost of not doing critical damage/ doing less critical damage than usual. There is also Critical Damage done stat that will for sure boost your damage more.

Initially, I said that this set kinda converts all your dmg into Oblivion DMG, but It is not accurate. It will be more like "old" version of bleed dmg. This type of dmg used to by-pass armour & only armour. So Block & Shields & minor / major buffs still reduced it.

All in all, I think that if you will focus Crit chance, crit dmg done and use many DOT sources of damage and use some Execute, this set may actually be pretty powerful. Especially if you will stack a lot of DOT abilities. Keep in mind that it affects all you damage. Usually, you would want to have a couple of strong hitting abilities for a burst combo. But with this set, it will be more like a very strong "pressure damage", since it affects all your damage.

Again, I hope I am wrong and this set will be niche/not used vs hyper strong meta set. I guess we will see. I just have this feeling that it might be very strong with a proper build.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Honestly ? I would sincerely want to be wrong. I would rather have set that is a niche / curiosity rather than another meta set.

While I do agree that "mathematically", using Excel Balancing spreadsheet, this set may look weak. But like many things in ESO, raw math in not everything. It would require testing for sure.

The thing is that I don't play this game since yesterday (more like since 2014). And... I just know BS when I see it. And here, red warning light went on.

My 1st reaction was: What is the easiest way to by-pass / reduce the 46% damage reduction penalty of this set ? And imminently I thought about Critical Damage. At base, if you crit, it boost your damage by 50%. So with high enough critical chance (that is very easy to build up), you can kinda almost reduce this penalty to 0 at a cost of not doing critical damage/ doing less critical damage than usual. There is also Critical Damage done stat that will for sure boost your damage more.

Initially, I said that this set kinda converts all your dmg into Oblivion DMG, but It is not accurate. It will be more like "old" version of bleed dmg. This type of dmg used to by-pass armour & only armour. So Block & Shields & minor / major buffs still reduced it.

All in all, I think that if you will focus Crit chance, crit dmg done and use many DOT sources of damage and use some Execute, this set may actually be pretty powerful. Especially if you will stack a lot of DOT abilities. Keep in mind that it affects all you damage. Usually, you would want to have a couple of strong hitting abilities for a burst combo. But with this set, it will be more like a very strong "pressure damage", since it affects all your damage.

Again, I hope I am wrong and this set will be niche/not used vs hyper strong meta set. I guess we will see. I just have this feeling that it might be very strong with a proper build.

Well that is another trade entirely in your build that you could do regardless of this set. Like this set nets you -17% damage done and then you hit a crit for 50% bonus damage. Well, what if instead of running Lamp you ran a set that gave you +15% damage done and then you crit for +50%. Obviously youd rather run the higher damage set.

i11ionward · January 14

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

MincMincMinc · January 14

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

Avran_Sylt · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

OrangeMemes · January 14

This set could read "treat your enemies as if they all have 30360 resistance, but no sources of penetration work", and it would mean the same thing. If someone is capped at their armor value after your penetration (likely you have some even if you don't invest in it from passive CP and class/racial passives), you're getting a relative 8% damage increase (50% damage done -> 54% damage done). Are there many enemies that are that tanky? Will additional 8% be enough to kill them if they're that invested into survivability?

We'll see, but now it seems like it's not worth sacrificing a 5 piece for that. Especially since for enemies with less than 30360 resistance it's going to be a net negative, regardless of how you build around it: just replacing the 5th piece without changing anything else about your build will result in a damage increase

MincMincMinc · January 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Avran_Sylt · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

MincMincMinc · January 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

MJallday · January 15

PLease correct me if i have this wrong

lets just say enemy has 33k resistance
and you have 5k spell damage, and this set, which is 100k pen

basically you are getting rid of the entire 33k (a surplus of 67k) - so all of your 5k is getting through
now of your 5k. its 46% less - so 2300.

on something like jabs, which hits every 0.1 second or something like that... you'll nuke players. 5 x jabs at 2300 = 11500 straight away.

am i missing something?

Thumbless_Bot · January 15

MJallday wrote: »

PLease correct me if i have this wrong

lets just say enemy has 33k resistance
and you have 5k spell damage, and this set, which is 100k pen

basically you are getting rid of the entire 33k (a surplus of 67k) - so all of your 5k is getting through
now of your 5k. its 46% less - so 2300.

on something like jabs, which hits every 0.1 second or something like that... you'll nuke players. 5 x jabs at 2300 = 11500 straight away.

am i missing something?

You aren't accounting for other mitigation. This isn't oblivion damage. Undeath, Ulfsids (whatever its called), potatoes, buffer of the swift, champion points, blocking all reduce damage taken by percentages.

Also, i don't think the relationship between weapon damage and tool tip is linear, so not sure if it's accurate to say 2300 less damage.

Jabs hits 3 times over .8 seconds I believe. Jabs already hits like a wet noodle, so with this nerf it might even heal.... just kidding... couldn't help myself.

Avran_Sylt · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

YandereGirlfriend · January 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

penetration only ignores armor

it does not ignore any other form of mitigation (blocking, major/minor protection, undeath, etc) like true oblivion dmg would

so this set is literally only ignoring normal armor mitigation, and then penalizing yourself with a nearly same amount of -dmg as the armor would be negating

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. By "damage reduction," I meant the part of the effect "Reduce your damage done by 46%," and it is specifically in this part that I suspect there might be bugs or exploits. I believe there should be no issues with penetration, and everything will work as specified.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

It is imperative to thoroughly test how damage reduction interacts (additively or multiplicatively) with other sources. I suspect there might be bugs here. To put it succinctly, the set is either dead on arrival or incredibly broken.

Not really, I already covered that in one of my posts at most you are talking a difference of 1% damage done.

This is because the damage done from pen is not additive with % damage done. There is no crazy efficiency mechanisms going on that can blow out of proportion.

Then it's simple – the set is dead on arrival.

Bug wise I dont see any way to mess with this. Itll just be a flat debuff like malacath is.

It could also be one of those sets where zos undershoots it on week 1, but then makes it make sense on week 2. Maybe they were worried people would freak out about perfect pen like they did on onslaught, which is now gutted.

ZoS has a history of additive bonuses that they need to revert to multiplicative. (Torug’s, Infused, Telvanni Efficiency, Quickened)

Is the damage reduction additive or multiplicative with things like Berserk, or Malacath’s Band?

It should be additive, but I suppose it is worth checking. Ill add it to my list.

Huh, I think additive would be a bug as it makes sources of global % damage increases more valuable than any other type of % damage increases with this set.

LKA
1000 x (1 - 0.46) = 540

LKA + Minor Berserk
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05) = 590
An increase of 9.25% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1- 0.46) x (1 + 0.05) = 567
An increase of 5% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 750
An increase of 38.8...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.16) = 653.4
An increase of 21% compared to 540

LKA + Minor Berserk + Major Berserk + Malacath's
Additive: 1000 x (1 - 0.46 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 850
An increase of 57.407...% compared to 540
Multiplicative: 1000 x (1 - 0.46) x (1 + 0.05 + 0.1 + 0.16) = 707.4
An increase of 31% compared to 540

I keep forgetting to download the pts while I am at work, but Ill test it ingame tonight. UESP has all these %dmg buffs as addititve.

I wasnt playing at the time, but I remember someone sending me patch notes where they talk about making the % buffs all additive to help new players understand better...... like that is what keeps them up at night.

Additive in the positive direction is fine. +90% damage done (with no other bonuses) is close to about double damage.

Additive in the negative direction is not fine. -90% damage done (with no other damage bonuses) means you deal ten times less damage. (Assuming that it takes 100 - 90 = 10)

And I wonder if things really are all additive.

See for example: Minor Berserk (self-buff), Minor Force (self crit buff), Minor Vulnerability (enemy debuff), Minor Brittle (enemy crit debuff).

All these could possibly be placed in their own multiplicative buckets in an equation. Should mean a critical is only dealing 30% more damage if everything is in play. But given the DPS people parse, I wonder if it's all multiplicative given the unique sources to be considered, making it ultimately 33% increased damage (and then continuously compound that against any other multiplicative buffs/debuffs with their own unique placement, Major variants, and the like all stacked).

Critical Damage is its own term in the damage calculation and has no direct interaction with things like Minor Berserk, etc.