Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Chaosball, more often than not a ball was left unattended

This is also because players hate being nerfed by the monster balls.

If not that, it's because the match is dead and lopsided anyway, might as well deathmatch.

You want to solve your problem OP, we need a mercy rule for lopsided matches.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Chaosball, more often than not a ball was left unattended

This is also because players hate being nerfed by the monster balls.

If not that, it's because the match is dead and lopsided anyway, might as well deathmatch.

You want to solve your problem OP, we need a mercy rule for lopsided matches.

This wasn't a monster ball match. But also yes, it'd be nice if there was a surrender option.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Yes! KDA is the only true way to rank mmr. I posted on this here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667624/mmr-that-makes-sense-and-is-easy-to-understand#latest

Not entirely, need to also consider support builds that don't get kills but can keep players alive.

I talk about that in my post, but have changed my mind a bit on this. I think Killing should give score, followed by assists, with reductions to score (not medal score, mmr score) for dying.

If we include healing and doing damage we have to including tanking. Tanks will also want medal score for absorbing damage, which, if the logic above is applied, they should be. So, outside of KDA, it would all be a wash. You get 100 for the hit, the tank gets 100 for taking the damage, and the pocket healer gets 100 for healing. It's all a wash. Tanks shouldn't get 100 for taking the damage and healing themselves. no one should get points for healing themselves.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Yes! KDA is the only true way to rank mmr.

Seems like a good way to separate out all the stealth gankers and coward Sorcs.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Yes! KDA is the only true way to rank mmr. I posted on this here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667624/mmr-that-makes-sense-and-is-easy-to-understand#latest

Not entirely, need to also consider support builds that don't get kills but can keep players alive.

I talk about that in my post, but have changed my mind a bit on this. I think Killing should give score, followed by assists, with reductions to score (not medal score, mmr score) for dying.

If we include healing and doing damage we have to including tanking. Tanks will also want medal score for absorbing damage, which, if the logic above is applied, they should be. So, outside of KDA, it would all be a wash. You get 100 for the hit, the tank gets 100 for taking the damage, and the pocket healer gets 100 for healing. It's all a wash. Tanks shouldn't get 100 for taking the damage and healing themselves. no one should get points for healing themselves.

Tanks should not get MMR score just for absorbing damage, but absorbing damage while interacting with an objective.

I agree people shouldn’t get points for healing themselves, but consider that with enough heals, you’re effectively tanky.

So perhaps a score event for a given cumulative pre-mitigation damage taken threshold while on or near an objective.

Dying will detract from the overall MMR

Then the same should apply to doing damage and healing, while on or near an objective, no? My point is that you either include none of these factors or you would have to include all of them, in some fashion like on or near an objective, to let people play the way they want. I don't like this because you can help win while being away from an objective.

Should be KDA and nothing but KDA. It's very simple and would enable mote balanced mmr.

It would also give zos very clear metrics on which classes were outperforming / underperforming the rest, which they could then use to target balancing adjustments.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Yes! KDA is the only true way to rank mmr. I posted on this here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667624/mmr-that-makes-sense-and-is-easy-to-understand#latest

Not entirely, need to also consider support builds that don't get kills but can keep players alive.

I talk about that in my post, but have changed my mind a bit on this. I think Killing should give score, followed by assists, with reductions to score (not medal score, mmr score) for dying.

If we include healing and doing damage we have to including tanking. Tanks will also want medal score for absorbing damage, which, if the logic above is applied, they should be. So, outside of KDA, it would all be a wash. You get 100 for the hit, the tank gets 100 for taking the damage, and the pocket healer gets 100 for healing. It's all a wash. Tanks shouldn't get 100 for taking the damage and healing themselves. no one should get points for healing themselves.

Tanks should not get MMR score just for absorbing damage, but absorbing damage while interacting with an objective.

I agree people shouldn’t get points for healing themselves, but consider that with enough heals, you’re effectively tanky.

So perhaps a score event for a given cumulative pre-mitigation damage taken threshold while on or near an objective.

Dying will detract from the overall MMR

Then the same should apply to doing damage and healing, while on or near an objective, no? My point is that you either include none of these factors or you would have to include all of them, in some fashion like on or near an objective, to let people play the way they want. I don't like this because you can help win while being away from an objective.

Should be KDA and nothing but KDA. It's very simple and would enable mote balanced mmr.

It would also give zos very clear metrics on which classes were outperforming / underperforming the rest, which they could then use to target balancing adjustments.

You get score for dealing damage to ball carriers, as well as killing them. Not worth a lot though, and arguably if you're successful it means that the person is no longer in play to gain more score from, unlike healing.

There's also a "Crushing Blow" or somesuch that can trigger when dealing a lot of damage to an enemy in a short time-frame (or from a single large hit?) but it doesn't count pre-mitigated damage. I think it's Deathmatch exclusive, as well as when attacking players on Domination Objectives? But it's also not worth a lot, like 5 score.

And no, this isn't Call of Duty where stats are normalized and it comes down to positional advantage and twitch-shooting skill.

A Healer can keep DPS alive to get several kills (Do healers get assists for healing players that get kills?), keep tanks alive for them to continue to harass opponents, and themselves alive as another target.

A tank can hold an objective better, act as a harasser to help other players get kills, and shut down opposing DPS by sticking on them.

DPS would be good at taking out players on an objective (as hopefully being on such an objective would place a player at some disadvantage), bursting down healers, and other DPS.

Kda is simple and elegant. More complex scoring systems require exponentially more code to account for all potential ties and permutations. I am not saying kda is perfect. Only that is solves for most situations. Is easy to understand and exceedingly easy to implement, in theory anyway... it's simple maths, and most importantly would likely help significantly with balance issues.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Yes! KDA is the only true way to rank mmr. I posted on this here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667624/mmr-that-makes-sense-and-is-easy-to-understand#latest

Not entirely, need to also consider support builds that don't get kills but can keep players alive.

I talk about that in my post, but have changed my mind a bit on this. I think Killing should give score, followed by assists, with reductions to score (not medal score, mmr score) for dying.

If we include healing and doing damage we have to including tanking. Tanks will also want medal score for absorbing damage, which, if the logic above is applied, they should be. So, outside of KDA, it would all be a wash. You get 100 for the hit, the tank gets 100 for taking the damage, and the pocket healer gets 100 for healing. It's all a wash. Tanks shouldn't get 100 for taking the damage and healing themselves. no one should get points for healing themselves.

Tanks should not get MMR score just for absorbing damage, but absorbing damage while interacting with an objective.

I agree people shouldn’t get points for healing themselves, but consider that with enough heals, you’re effectively tanky.

So perhaps a score event for a given cumulative pre-mitigation damage taken threshold while on or near an objective.

Dying will detract from the overall MMR

Then the same should apply to doing damage and healing, while on or near an objective, no? My point is that you either include none of these factors or you would have to include all of them, in some fashion like on or near an objective, to let people play the way they want. I don't like this because you can help win while being away from an objective.

Should be KDA and nothing but KDA. It's very simple and would enable mote balanced mmr.

It would also give zos very clear metrics on which classes were outperforming / underperforming the rest, which they could then use to target balancing adjustments.

You get score for dealing damage to ball carriers, as well as killing them. Not worth a lot though, and arguably if you're successful it means that the person is no longer in play to gain more score from, unlike healing.

There's also a "Crushing Blow" or somesuch that can trigger when dealing a lot of damage to an enemy in a short time-frame (or from a single large hit?) but it doesn't count pre-mitigated damage. I think it's Deathmatch exclusive, as well as when attacking players on Domination Objectives? But it's also not worth a lot, like 5 score.

And no, this isn't Call of Duty where stats are normalized and it comes down to positional advantage and twitch-shooting skill.

A Healer can keep DPS alive to get several kills (Do healers get assists for healing players that get kills?), keep tanks alive for them to continue to harass opponents, and themselves alive as another target.

A tank can hold an objective better, act as a harasser to help other players get kills, and shut down opposing DPS by sticking on them.

DPS would be good at taking out players on an objective (as hopefully being on such an objective would place a player at some disadvantage), bursting down healers, and other DPS.

Kda is simple and elegant. More complex scoring systems require exponentially more code to account for all potential ties and permutations. I am not saying kda is perfect. Only that is solves for most situations. Is easy to understand and exceedingly easy to implement, in theory anyway... it's simple maths, and most importantly would likely help significantly with balance issues.

Simple maths because you're looking at a spreadsheet with given numbers and making assumptions based on what number is higher vs. others? Does the spreadsheet contain all the datapoints needed? Are you sure you're not mixing correlation with causation?

The KDA metric is a tool to be used as they improve upon their system over time. Needed, but not standalone.

Yes, it contains all the points for mmr, not medal score. It contains kills, deaths and assists.

My argument above is that all other metrics should not count towards mmr. I honestly couldn't care less about medal score outside of tie break.

Here, again though, it is all a wash. Take your chaos ball example. You get medal score for damaging the carrier. The carrier should then get the same score for absorbing the damage while holding the ball. The pocket healer. If there is one, should get the same score for healing the carrier for the damage. All players are actively participating in the objective and should be rewarded for doing so with medal score.

Same for healer keeping tank alive in DM. The person doing the damage to the tank gets x, the tank gets x and the healer gets x. All a wash...

The only differentiator for medal score is the objective, and Ks, Ds and As, as it should be, in any mode.

It does not come down to call of duty, but it most certainly would boil it down to skill, which, again, is where it should be.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

LOL at KDA being the only thing that should matter for MMR. This isn't CoD. Healers will completely break that approach.

Group queues will be completely messed up because groups with healers will perform better than groups without, while the healers will simultaneously be dragging down the group MMR. Similarly, solo queues will also be completely broken, because high MMR matches won't have any healers and low MMR matches won't allow anyone to die because they'll be full of top-tier healers and ineffective DPS.

Mmr is not a group stat. Healers will have to learn how to kill and l2 warriors will have to learn how to kill. Damage dealers already know how to heal and hold l2. This isn't pve where roles matter like that.
This is eso solo queue pvp where individuals have to be able to do everything to succeed at high mmr. As it should be.

My point is that at the highest level of mmr players should be able to do it all. If they cannot, whether through lack of skill or from building into one thing too much, their mmr should suffer. They will be matched with similarly situated folks, which helps balance out matches.

Group queue might have different meta, and requirements. I don't do group bgs so maybe you're right there.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

LOL at KDA being the only thing that should matter for MMR. This isn't CoD. Healers will completely break that approach.

Group queues will be completely messed up because groups with healers will perform better than groups without, while the healers will simultaneously be dragging down the group MMR. Similarly, solo queues will also be completely broken, because high MMR matches won't have any healers and low MMR matches won't allow anyone to die because they'll be full of top-tier healers and ineffective DPS.

Mmr is not a group stat. Healers will have to learn how to kill and l2 warriors will have to learn how to kill. Damage dealers already know how to heal and hold l2. This isn't pve where roles matter like that.
This is eso solo queue pvp where individuals have to be able to do everything to succeed at high mmr. As it should be.

My point is that at the highest level of mmr players should be able to do it all. If they cannot, whether through lack of skill or from building into one thing too much, their mmr should suffer. They will be matched with similarly situated folks, which helps balance out matches.

Group queue might have different meta, and requirements. I don't do group bgs so maybe you're right there.

Healers will just wind up with low MMR and ruin lower MMR matches (either by preventing anyone from dying in solo queue, or by dragging down the average MMR of their group in group queue).

You sound like you've never been in a BG with a dedicated healer who does 1m+ healing and less than 50k damage.

Well, right now they're ruining high mmr matches.

I've been in far too many dms with three healers who do nothing but drop aoe heals hoping to win on medal score after a stalemate.

Same with tanks. They are useless in dm.

For other match types, it's similar. 3 wardens with 50k health dropping charm and holding l2 while one sorc drops negate and the plars heal everyone and try to javelin e people off the bridge/ledge. This is toxic, imho. Domination and crazy king become obstacle courses and not BATTLE grounds. chaos ball become a bunch of people standing around the balls in 30 aoe heals waiting for the ball carrier to die... really becomes a test of who can click x fast enough when the tank finally dies. If players want this, they would be situated with other players that want this by their mmr.

It's a win win

Also, to be clear, it's not really about high or low mmr. It's about putting same skill with same skill. That's it.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

LOL at KDA being the only thing that should matter for MMR. This isn't CoD. Healers will completely break that approach.

Group queues will be completely messed up because groups with healers will perform better than groups without, while the healers will simultaneously be dragging down the group MMR. Similarly, solo queues will also be completely broken, because high MMR matches won't have any healers and low MMR matches won't allow anyone to die because they'll be full of top-tier healers and ineffective DPS.

Mmr is not a group stat. Healers will have to learn how to kill and l2 warriors will have to learn how to kill. Damage dealers already know how to heal and hold l2. This isn't pve where roles matter like that.
This is eso solo queue pvp where individuals have to be able to do everything to succeed at high mmr. As it should be.

My point is that at the highest level of mmr players should be able to do it all. If they cannot, whether through lack of skill or from building into one thing too much, their mmr should suffer. They will be matched with similarly situated folks, which helps balance out matches.

Group queue might have different meta, and requirements. I don't do group bgs so maybe you're right there.

Healers will just wind up with low MMR and ruin lower MMR matches (either by preventing anyone from dying in solo queue, or by dragging down the average MMR of their group in group queue).

You sound like you've never been in a BG with a dedicated healer who does 1m+ healing and less than 50k damage.

Well, right now they're ruining high mmr matches.

I've been in far too many dms with three healers who do nothing but drop aoe heals hoping to win on medal score after a stalemate.

Same with tanks. They are useless in dm.

For other match types, it's similar. 3 wardens with 50k health dropping charm and holding l2 while one sorc drops negate and the plars heal everyone and try to javelin e people off the bridge/ledge. This is toxic, imho. Domination and crazy king become obstacle courses and not BATTLE grounds. chaos ball become a bunch of people standing around the balls in 30 aoe heals waiting for the ball carrier to die... really becomes a test of who can click x fast enough when the tank finally dies. If players want this, they would be situated with other players that want this by their mmr.

It's a win win

Also, to be clear, it's not really about high or low mmr. It's about putting same skill with same skill. That's it.

And now new players can't advance their MMR as they're stuck in the same quagmire as "experienced Healbot/Tank players", suffocating new players entering the mix and accelerating turnover.

(Not to mention you've now created an MMR system where a player can play "well" and choose to inflate or deflate their MMR by choosing to play tank or healer for a while, then swapping to DPS)

That where 8v8 comes in. It doesn't have mmr and is more forgiving.

People are people and will take advantage of any system or broken mechanic... that's why 80% of cyro is sorcs and nbs and why everyone doing bgs now is described as above. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a fair mmr system.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

LOL at KDA being the only thing that should matter for MMR. This isn't CoD. Healers will completely break that approach.

Group queues will be completely messed up because groups with healers will perform better than groups without, while the healers will simultaneously be dragging down the group MMR. Similarly, solo queues will also be completely broken, because high MMR matches won't have any healers and low MMR matches won't allow anyone to die because they'll be full of top-tier healers and ineffective DPS.

Mmr is not a group stat. Healers will have to learn how to kill and l2 warriors will have to learn how to kill. Damage dealers already know how to heal and hold l2. This isn't pve where roles matter like that.
This is eso solo queue pvp where individuals have to be able to do everything to succeed at high mmr. As it should be.

My point is that at the highest level of mmr players should be able to do it all. If they cannot, whether through lack of skill or from building into one thing too much, their mmr should suffer. They will be matched with similarly situated folks, which helps balance out matches.

Group queue might have different meta, and requirements. I don't do group bgs so maybe you're right there.

Healers will just wind up with low MMR and ruin lower MMR matches (either by preventing anyone from dying in solo queue, or by dragging down the average MMR of their group in group queue).

You sound like you've never been in a BG with a dedicated healer who does 1m+ healing and less than 50k damage.

Well, right now they're ruining high mmr matches.

I've been in far too many dms with three healers who do nothing but drop aoe heals hoping to win on medal score after a stalemate.

Same with tanks. They are useless in dm.

For other match types, it's similar. 3 wardens with 50k health dropping charm and holding l2 while one sorc drops negate and the plars heal everyone and try to javelin e people off the bridge/ledge. This is toxic, imho. Domination and crazy king become obstacle courses and not BATTLE grounds. chaos ball become a bunch of people standing around the balls in 30 aoe heals waiting for the ball carrier to die... really becomes a test of who can click x fast enough when the tank finally dies. If players want this, they would be situated with other players that want this by their mmr.

It's a win win

Also, to be clear, it's not really about high or low mmr. It's about putting same skill with same skill. That's it.

And now new players can't advance their MMR as they're stuck in the same quagmire as "experienced Healbot/Tank players", suffocating new players entering the mix and accelerating turnover.

(Not to mention you've now created an MMR system where a player can play "well" and choose to inflate or deflate their MMR by choosing to play tank or healer for a while, then swapping to DPS)

That where 8v8 comes in. It doesn't have mmr and is more forgiving.

People are people and will take advantage of any system or broken mechanic... that's why 80% of cyro is sorcs and nbs and why everyone doing bgs now is described as above. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a fair mmr system.

...8v8 has MMR. It may be more forgiving. But if it didn't I'd be very surprised.

Just because a game-mode is considered the "casual version", doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit from MMR.

The purpose of MMR is to give players more enjoyable matches, so they come back and play more.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

LOL at KDA being the only thing that should matter for MMR. This isn't CoD. Healers will completely break that approach.

Group queues will be completely messed up because groups with healers will perform better than groups without, while the healers will simultaneously be dragging down the group MMR. Similarly, solo queues will also be completely broken, because high MMR matches won't have any healers and low MMR matches won't allow anyone to die because they'll be full of top-tier healers and ineffective DPS.

Mmr is not a group stat. Healers will have to learn how to kill and l2 warriors will have to learn how to kill. Damage dealers already know how to heal and hold l2. This isn't pve where roles matter like that.
This is eso solo queue pvp where individuals have to be able to do everything to succeed at high mmr. As it should be.

My point is that at the highest level of mmr players should be able to do it all. If they cannot, whether through lack of skill or from building into one thing too much, their mmr should suffer. They will be matched with similarly situated folks, which helps balance out matches.

Group queue might have different meta, and requirements. I don't do group bgs so maybe you're right there.

Healers will just wind up with low MMR and ruin lower MMR matches (either by preventing anyone from dying in solo queue, or by dragging down the average MMR of their group in group queue).

You sound like you've never been in a BG with a dedicated healer who does 1m+ healing and less than 50k damage.

Well, right now they're ruining high mmr matches.

I've been in far too many dms with three healers who do nothing but drop aoe heals hoping to win on medal score after a stalemate.

Same with tanks. They are useless in dm.

For other match types, it's similar. 3 wardens with 50k health dropping charm and holding l2 while one sorc drops negate and the plars heal everyone and try to javelin e people off the bridge/ledge. This is toxic, imho. Domination and crazy king become obstacle courses and not BATTLE grounds. chaos ball become a bunch of people standing around the balls in 30 aoe heals waiting for the ball carrier to die... really becomes a test of who can click x fast enough when the tank finally dies. If players want this, they would be situated with other players that want this by their mmr.

It's a win win

Also, to be clear, it's not really about high or low mmr. It's about putting same skill with same skill. That's it.

And now new players can't advance their MMR as they're stuck in the same quagmire as "experienced Healbot/Tank players", suffocating new players entering the mix and accelerating turnover.

(Not to mention you've now created an MMR system where a player can play "well" and choose to inflate or deflate their MMR by choosing to play tank or healer for a while, then swapping to DPS)

That where 8v8 comes in. It doesn't have mmr and is more forgiving.

People are people and will take advantage of any system or broken mechanic... that's why 80% of cyro is sorcs and nbs and why everyone doing bgs now is described as above. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a fair mmr system.

Frankly, it sounds like you're just trying to come up with an MMR scheme that favors your preferred play style, while penalizing play styles that you have difficulty beating.

My preference is to have 3 teams back. That's probably not happening. My secondary preference is to make these bgs as fun, engaging, repeatable for new players, exciting, dynamic and competitve as possible with fair scoring, given that zos has taken away the three team format that has these characteristics.

My playstyle is irrelevant. I do not have difficulty beating any particular playstyle. [Bait not taken].

What we all currently have is a game design and scoring system that encourages people to play a toxic playstyle that some enjoy. The medal score and dm victory can be and often are directly related to how well you build into the, 'hold l2, heal, Charm/knockback your opponent. Move to next flag and repeat. Or if death match. Just stand in a group and do this the entire match without actually trying to kill anyone'. My quotes... just added for clarity. This is bad for the long term health of bg population. THIS IS NOT HEALTHY FOR THE SURVIVAL OF BGS. Zos has created an atmosphere that is discouraging people from repeating bgs and that IS BAD.

My goals are twofold.

One is to encourage an mmr system that let's those people that all want to stand on flags, heal each other and sing kumbaya to play together in their own bgs. While also allowing newer players to be eased into bgs by not being matched with sweaties, of any kind. And, finally letting people who actually want to fight and kill each other to take/keep objectives to do so.

Two is to have a scoring system that doesn't encourage the toxic healbot playstyle at the top of the leaderboards. I am not saying zos should discourage this playstyle. Just that the medal playing field should be level. And only because medal score impacts winning and rewards. Though I personally don't care about rewards... some do.

The only way to do both of the above is with KDA being the separation in mmr and scoring. All else is equal. I dont care if you call high kda high mmr, low mmr or left/right mmr. Ive explained why kda is the only way to have fair mmr above, and in other threads, about 10 times now, so I won't repeat it here.

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I think healers should get assists on the kills their dps get.

I agree, but that's a weird one. If you allow any amount of healing to act as a trigger for an assist, then you'll inadvertently punish healers that aren't healing super well by inflating their MMR over time. It needs to be based on amount healed (cumulative with all other healing performed via various skills), how recently the healed player took damage, and the kill.