fixing performance by making everyone quit eso?

plasmab3ard · January 10

i watched yesterday's stream and I have to say, one has to try really hard to find anything positive to say about the pvp related news.

eso is an amazing game with an extremely high skill ceiling, best in class combat system, amazing build diversity, cool community and it seems to me that what would make most pvpers happy is

1) bugfixes
2) performance
3) make regular, incremental balance changes, just like any other esport does (not introduce set / oh no set too strong / delete set)
4) make regular, incremental fixes and improvements to things you already have (like the amazing new bgs you just introduced)

[snip]
and this is supposed to address performance?
afaict literally everyone who spends a lot of time in cyro, including multiple official stream team members, has at least a strong subjective sense that lag issues are highly correlated with ballgroup activity.
which at least passes a basic smell test, since multiple buff proc sets going off every few seconds plus skills which affect multiple group members sounds like it could plausibly introduce a lot of commands?
not a single mention of this, or maybe a camplaign that limits some ballroup related things, instead you delete everything that makes eso eso and ??? profit?
I cannot overstate how out of touch this makes you look.
I understand that its possible that you analyzed logs and found no correlation between lag and ballgroups, but if so, since that would be such and extraordinary claim, at the very least you should share your data and methodology.

anyway, have a great weekend!
[edited for bashing]

SeaGtGruff · January 10

Many players in these forums have been saying for years that ZOS should be balancing ESO's PvE and PvP separately from each other. Many other players in these forums have been saying for years that poor game performance in Cyrodiil is due to all of the heavy-duty calculations that the servers need to do.

ZOS has made it clear that they will be trying different things to see what works, and also that this particular thing is a test rather than something that's going to become implemented as-is.

Personally, I'm looking forward to trying out the temporary new test to see how it functions. This is exactly the sort of thing that many players in these forums have been asking for in Cyrodiil-- maybe not to-the-letter, but in spirit. I wasn't one of the players asking for this, but I see it as a positive step.

Mayrael · January 10

We asked for separate balancing for PvE and PvP, but not for ready-made templates with limited options to choose from. We wanted some skills to have different effects in PvE and PvP. What's the point of the whole element of farming sets, skills, etc. (generally the RPG element) if when entering Cyrodiil, I can only choose from a limited set of skills and sets? For me, this is unacceptable; ESO is not an FPS.

The thing that most affects Cyrodiil's performance, as the OP mentioned, is ball groups - period. Evidence? When a ball group starts running, everything lags more; when they stop, performance suddenly improves. I don't blame the players who run in ball groups, but rather ZOS for not handling it well.

SeaGtGruff · January 10

Mayrael wrote: »

We asked for separate balancing for PvE and PvP, but not for ready-made templates with limited options to choose from.

You were not the only person asking for separate balancing of PvE and PvP, and some of the other people who were asking for that (of whom I was not one) most certainly did mention ideas such as different sets for PvP and restricting PvP to just those sets. So your "we" might include everyone who had exactly the same idea and vision as you, but it does not include the people who had different ideas and visions of how it could be implemented.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a lazy cuss, and that a large part of the reason why I don't do better at "end-game" PvE and at PvP is because I haven't changed hardly anything about my character (in terms of gear, skills, etc.) in years. I settled upon my mains' current builds, sets, and skill bars gradually over the years, and have no particular desire to relearn anything. But if this helps increase the number of players who can be fighting in Cyrodiil at the same time, then I'm for it.

However, we really don't know for sure what the final form will be. They were quite clear that this is just trying something out.

plasmab3ard · January 10

yeah separate balancing for pve/pvp is obv a great idea (and already in force, eg rallying cry etc) my point is that, when you see "no more builds for u" as a "first step" instead of, idk, try disabling the 10 or so group buff sets ballgroups run or "in pvp healing skills only heal yourself OR an ally", its quite hard to imagine what the thought process behind that might be (other than "lets dumb this game down into non existence")

plasmab3ard · January 10

i guess the one thing i could think of that would make this seem like a reasonable first step would be if the code base is so impossible to instrument that the only way they can debug performance is by commenting everything out and in again line-by-line

Major_Mangle · January 10

I'll give a hot take (not so much tbh) but I like that they haven't separated PvE and PvP balance. It won't fix the issues people think it would fix. Worst part about reading people talking about it throughout the years is the straight up gaslighting from certain parts of the PvE crowd blaming PvP for all balance changes in PvE, even tho majority of PvE changes (be it sets or skills) are due to how they work in PvE and not how those worked in PvP.

I personally don't mind things getting changed because of one or the other, but god forbid these tests they'll do later this year turns into Cyrodiil being "template only PvP". I pray it's only a way to gather data and nothing else. They did similar when testing no proc and the end result was a disaster with Ravenwatch becoming a dead campaign.

loosej · January 10

I'm trying to be optimistic about this test, but given past events, here's what I expect to see:

Ballgroups doing battlegrounds for a week because why bother.
Test going great, barely any performance issues. Maybe some forum posts about battleground performance.
Zos saying: hey that worked, let's make this a permanent campaign.
Permanent campaign staying empty, getting into GH still means waiting in a 50+ queue.
Campaign getting removed after three years. Zos announcing some new tests, saying they have to start somewhere.

But this is one occasion where I really hope to be proven wrong.

plasmab3ard · January 10

actually, if ballgroups made even bgs lag, that would be extremely useful data

loosej · January 10

It would be interesting data.

For it to be useful, zos would have to be willing to act on it.

Mayrael · January 10

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I'll give a hot take (not so much tbh) but I like that they haven't separated PvE and PvP balance. It won't fix the issues people think it would fix. Worst part about reading people talking about it throughout the years is the straight up gaslighting from certain parts of the PvE crowd blaming PvP for all balance changes in PvE, even tho majority of PvE changes (be it sets or skills) are due to how they work in PvE and not how those worked in PvP.

I personally don't mind things getting changed because of one or the other, but god forbid these tests they'll do later this year turns into Cyrodiil being "template only PvP". I pray it's only a way to gather data and nothing else. They did similar when testing no proc and the end result was a disaster with Ravenwatch becoming a dead campaign.

PvP based on templates is the complete opposite of what ESO is and why it's so appealing. This approach completely removes the freedom in build creation, makes theorycrafting obsolete, and turns PvP in ESO into just one of the hundreds of games of this type on the market, only set in a different universe.

Mayrael · January 10

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

We asked for separate balancing for PvE and PvP, but not for ready-made templates with limited options to choose from.

You were not the only person asking for separate balancing of PvE and PvP, and some of the other people who were asking for that (of whom I was not one) most certainly did mention ideas such as different sets for PvP and restricting PvP to just those sets. So your "we" might include everyone who had exactly the same idea and vision as you, but it does not include the people who had different ideas and visions of how it could be implemented.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a lazy cuss, and that a large part of the reason why I don't do better at "end-game" PvE and at PvP is because I haven't changed hardly anything about my character (in terms of gear, skills, etc.) in years. I settled upon my mains' current builds, sets, and skill bars gradually over the years, and have no particular desire to relearn anything. But if this helps increase the number of players who can be fighting in Cyrodiil at the same time, then I'm for it.

However, we really don't know for sure what the final form will be. They were quite clear that this is just trying something out.

So in general after "casualisation" of PvE you want to make PvP also a casual oriented activity because as you said on your own, you are lazy?

TechMaybeHic · January 10

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

I keep thinking of the no proc test, which i enjoyed; but then they pushed it to a permanent campaign and didn't try to push more variety to see what worked. It was too limited for me beyond just the test; and this one will be way more limited.

I'm not sure why people think it's an event to just quit over. It's 1 week and then probably can be ignored

Soraka · January 10

Because they have a history of plowing ahead on things they put effort into despite what the players actually say. Look at the long history of this with the test realm and pve.

Thumbless_Bot · January 10

They've made two, TWO significant updates to pvp in the last two updates. Zos is doing things for us pvp players.

While I am probably one of the most vocal people when it comes to bgs, I will also say that I am very pleased that they are running this cyro test as a Proof of Concept, or POC, to gather data, both from logs and user feedback. Maybe this is a bit optimistic and naive, but i am hopeful.

Unlike bgs, this doesn't appear to be an end state. Zos should be commended for this and commended for trying to fix lag in cyro, any way they can. So, as with any POC, I recommend we take some time to try it out and give constructive feedback because they've given us the opportunity to do so.

Now, if I could just figure out how to get involved in pts testing... anyone?

fizl101 · January 10

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

They've made two, TWO significant updates to pvp in the last two updates. Zos is doing things for us pvp players.

While I am probably one of the most vocal people when it comes to bgs, I will also say that I am very pleased that they are running this cyro test as a Proof of Concept, or POC, to gather data, both from logs and user feedback. Maybe this is a bit optimistic and naive, but i am hopeful.

Unlike bgs, this doesn't appear to be an end state. Zos should be commended for this and commended for trying to fix lag in cyro, any way they can. So, as with any POC, I recommend we take some time to try it out and give constructive feedback because they've given us the opportunity to do so.

Now, if I could just figure out how to get involved in pts testing... anyone?

You need to install pts from your launcher (if you have it hidden you may have to unhide in settings first). Pc only not console

Muizer · January 10

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

I'd say they've already tried quite a few things and it hasn't worked. At some point you have to acknowledge that the best bet is to take everything apart and build it back up, ensuring that every step of the way performance is still good enough.

From what I can see, that is what this test is. It's a bare bones set up: the absolute minimum that needs to be in the game to be playable. If the test goes well, we can expect other elements to be reintroduced in subsequent iterations.

If we're very lucky, then somewhere along the line they will add something that suddenly and unexpectedly crashes performance. Something that can be extracted from PvP as it is and will make everything ok. More likely, the performance will degrade progressively until they have to stop adding things back in.

In short, this approach is the one that offers the best chance at making PvP performance better long term and it's the only realistic alternative to 'hit and hope'. It is a big undertaking. I think it is a bold move, actually. We should be happy ZOS are finally biting the bullet here.

Thumbless_Bot · January 10

fizl101 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

They've made two, TWO significant updates to pvp in the last two updates. Zos is doing things for us pvp players.

While I am probably one of the most vocal people when it comes to bgs, I will also say that I am very pleased that they are running this cyro test as a Proof of Concept, or POC, to gather data, both from logs and user feedback. Maybe this is a bit optimistic and naive, but i am hopeful.

Unlike bgs, this doesn't appear to be an end state. Zos should be commended for this and commended for trying to fix lag in cyro, any way they can. So, as with any POC, I recommend we take some time to try it out and give constructive feedback because they've given us the opportunity to do so.

Now, if I could just figure out how to get involved in pts testing... anyone?

You need to install pts from your launcher (if you have it hidden you may have to unhide in settings first). Pc only not console

Thank you!

MincMincMinc · January 10

Muizer wrote: »

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

We already know what caused the lag. The game was originally client based. Instead of cracking down on cheaters, zos transitioned as much as possible to be server side. Then to top it off, year after year they allowed design creep to happen. Everything became more complicated than they should have been including: skills, sets, status effects, passives, mechanics, animations, seige.

Does dizzy swing really need offbalance? or can it just be a simple cast time skill that does alot of damage with a knockup?
Any reason why we need proc sets that trigger off aoe dot crits, which do a stacking dot, thatlly build up and do a stun that wipes your butt for you? Actually perfect examples of this are the new proc sets they are introducing in the new update......
Do all skills need to do an effect and have a passive and debuff the enemy and apply a cc?
Do status effects really have to do damage, and do an aoe, and do more damage based on a previous effect, and debuff the enemy?
Any reason the newer dlc skills have crazy flamboyant animations that make it impossible to see important animations like CC mechanics or burst? Why am I getting hit by 12k invisible merciless when all I can see is giant arcanist tentacle spam?

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating. Sadly the changes that need to happen wont because you will basically obsolete all old content. The only way is to bite the bullet or make an ESO 2 that follows a clear standard all at once.

Sadly there are players that think paragraph long overcomplicated skills and proc sets are fun gameplay. You will see them use verbiage like "zos is dumbing down combat". Somehow they think having sets and skills that do everything for you with minimal thinking is fun gameplay. Older school players prefer more mental/technical combat back and forth: you do a stun, I block. You do a root, I roll. You prep a burst, I interrupt it.

Sluggy · January 10

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

Now, we all know that just isn't going to happen

I'd expect maybe, *maybe* one more update a year later.

Personally, I'm kinda over ESO's PvP at this point. It's already a shadow of itself and I don't think it will ever bounce back. I'm kinda with @SeaGtGruff on this one. This is probably, honestly, the best thing they could do for it. Try to inject some new blood by making it more open to players of all kinds. Will it kill it off for the old guard if they decided to lean entirely into this? You bet. Would it be a mistake? I'm not so sure. It might revitalize it simply due to the nature of making it more accessible. And if they did decide to stick with it, this sounds like hotfixes for balance and exploits would be orders of magnitude easier and faster. For me, this really isn't another nail in the coffin because that coffin already has so many nails there ain't no wood left!

MincMincMinc · January 10

Sluggy wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

Now, we all know that just isn't going to happen I'd expect maybe, *maybe* one more update a year later.

Personally, I'm kinda over ESO's PvP at this point. It's already a shadow of itself and I don't think it will ever bounce back. I'm kinda with @SeaGtGruff on this one. This is probably, honestly, the best thing they could do for it. Try to inject some new blood by making it more open to players of all kinds. Will it kill it off for the old guard if they decided to lean entirely into this? You bet. Would it be a mistake? I'm not so sure. It might revitalize it simply due to the nature of making it more accessible. And if they did decide to stick with it, this sounds like hotfixes for balance and exploits would be orders of magnitude easier and faster. For me, this really isn't another nail in the coffin because that coffin already has so many nails there ain't no wood left!

I think the old guard would embrace this far more than the new players. Youd be suprised how much more fun the game was back when combat focused on play and counterplay instead of who has the best DLC proc sets and the most overloaded BIS ability/class.

The game was originally praised for its fighting game like combat..... Instead of being super smash bros, ESO combat today is more like Yugioh. Instead of Tech skill and Mechanics players are winning by slotting proc gear and skills that cant fail. Which was inevitable to happen with quarterly set releases after 10 years.

Combat wont be boring if you have to actually participate in it instead of relying on set procs, watching and reacting to what other players do.

Lyraen_Skyforge · January 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

Now, we all know that just isn't going to happen I'd expect maybe, *maybe* one more update a year later.

Personally, I'm kinda over ESO's PvP at this point. It's already a shadow of itself and I don't think it will ever bounce back. I'm kinda with @SeaGtGruff on this one. This is probably, honestly, the best thing they could do for it. Try to inject some new blood by making it more open to players of all kinds. Will it kill it off for the old guard if they decided to lean entirely into this? You bet. Would it be a mistake? I'm not so sure. It might revitalize it simply due to the nature of making it more accessible. And if they did decide to stick with it, this sounds like hotfixes for balance and exploits would be orders of magnitude easier and faster. For me, this really isn't another nail in the coffin because that coffin already has so many nails there ain't no wood left!

I think the old guard would embrace this far more than the new players. Youd be suprised how much more fun the game was back when combat focused on play and counterplay instead of who has the best DLC proc sets and the most overloaded BIS ability/class.

The game was originally praised for its fighting game like combat..... Instead of being super smash bros, ESO combat today is more like Yugioh. Instead of Tech skill and Mechanics players are winning by slotting proc gear and skills that cant fail. Which was inevitable to happen with quarterly set releases after 10 years.

Combat wont be boring if you have to actually participate in it instead of relying on set procs, watching and reacting to what other players do.

It seems like they’re trying to turn Cyrodiil into a pick-up-and-play experience, catering to players who haven’t put in the hours to earn the sets, skills, and progression needed to compete.

The problem is that ESO has never been a pick-up-and-play game—that’s not what draws people to MMOs. Games like MOBAs or battle royales fulfill that niche much better. What makes an MMO special is the ability to invest time and effort into building something great, then leveraging that progression to excel and dominate.

The new campaign idea runs counter to this core appeal. Worse, the features they’re aiming for have been done better by other games for years. Instead of trying to imitate those games, ESO should focus on what sets it apart: depth, investment, and progression.

xylena_lazarow · January 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Combat wont be boring if you have to actually participate in it instead of relying on set procs, watching and reacting to what other players do.

That's assuming they can balance the classes, and not end up with one class/skill combo that dominates the meta.

TechMaybeHic · January 10

Sluggy wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

Now, we all know that just isn't going to happen I'd expect maybe, *maybe* one more update a year later.

Personally, I'm kinda over ESO's PvP at this point. It's already a shadow of itself and I don't think it will ever bounce back. I'm kinda with @SeaGtGruff on this one. This is probably, honestly, the best thing they could do for it. Try to inject some new blood by making it more open to players of all kinds. Will it kill it off for the old guard if they decided to lean entirely into this? You bet. Would it be a mistake? I'm not so sure. It might revitalize it simply due to the nature of making it more accessible. And if they did decide to stick with it, this sounds like hotfixes for balance and exploits would be orders of magnitude easier and faster. For me, this really isn't another nail in the coffin because that coffin already has so many nails there ain't no wood left!

The one time I've seen an established game get gutted to a very vanilla standardized PvP experience was SWG at the launch of the NGE. Think jedi robes had same resists as armor and no drawbacks. Everything was just a zerg on zerg numbers game. It was fun as a comical just mass rush back and forth for a few minutes but quickly got old.

They did that to their entire game there, though. And built it up quite a bit again before closing; but it definitely was downhill and momentum was gone so most didn't see the improvements

SeaGtGruff · January 10

Mayrael wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

We asked for separate balancing for PvE and PvP, but not for ready-made templates with limited options to choose from.

You were not the only person asking for separate balancing of PvE and PvP, and some of the other people who were asking for that (of whom I was not one) most certainly did mention ideas such as different sets for PvP and restricting PvP to just those sets. So your "we" might include everyone who had exactly the same idea and vision as you, but it does not include the people who had different ideas and visions of how it could be implemented.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a lazy cuss, and that a large part of the reason why I don't do better at "end-game" PvE and at PvP is because I haven't changed hardly anything about my character (in terms of gear, skills, etc.) in years. I settled upon my mains' current builds, sets, and skill bars gradually over the years, and have no particular desire to relearn anything. But if this helps increase the number of players who can be fighting in Cyrodiil at the same time, then I'm for it.

However, we really don't know for sure what the final form will be. They were quite clear that this is just trying something out.

So in general after "casualisation" of PvE you want to make PvP also a casual oriented activity because as you said on your own, you are lazy?

Sorry to refute your mischaracterization of my response, but I never said anything about the casualization of anything. That was indeed a characterization that the OP seemed to be making while bashing Brian Wheeler, but I didn't comment about it.

My reference to being "lazy" was specifically in regard to not having changed my own build, gear, and skill bar setups very much since having settled upon something that works reasonably well for my playstyle. It had nothing to do with how I think other players should approach the game, or how often I think they should change their builds, gear, and skill bar setups.

RomanRex wrote: »

It seems like they’re trying to turn Cyrodiil into a pick-up-and-play experience, catering to players who haven’t put in the hours to earn the sets, skills, and progression needed to compete.

The problem is that ESO has never been a pick-up-and-play game—that’s not what draws people to MMOs. Games like MOBAs or battle royales fulfill that niche much better. What makes an MMO special is the ability to invest time and effort into building something great, then leveraging that progression to excel and dominate.

The new campaign idea runs counter to this core appeal. Worse, the features they’re aiming for have been done better by other games for years. Instead of trying to imitate those games, ESO should focus on what sets it apart: depth, investment, and progression.

I'm not sure what constitutes a "pick-up-and-play" game, but I don't think the new campaign is meant to run counter to any particular playstyle. It's simply about wanting to cut back on how many calculations the PvP servers are having to do. And it's just an experiment at this point. They made it clear in the end-of-year letter, as well as during the U45 reveal stream, that they are wanting to try out different ideas. Nothing is set in stone about this.

The best thing we can do with regard to this is to try it out on the PTS to see how what's different and what we'll need to do to adapt to it, and then try it out again on the live PvP servers using the knowledge we gained from the PTS, so ZOS can see how much the servers can handle (population wise) and then decide where to go from there.

MincMincMinc · January 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Combat wont be boring if you have to actually participate in it instead of relying on set procs, watching and reacting to what other players do.

That's assuming they can balance the classes, and not end up with one class/skill combo that dominates the meta.

You are talking like acuity rallying warden with 50khp isnt the meta right now. That already exists, just go try and play bgs.

MincMincMinc · January 10

RomanRex wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

Now, we all know that just isn't going to happen I'd expect maybe, *maybe* one more update a year later.

Personally, I'm kinda over ESO's PvP at this point. It's already a shadow of itself and I don't think it will ever bounce back. I'm kinda with @SeaGtGruff on this one. This is probably, honestly, the best thing they could do for it. Try to inject some new blood by making it more open to players of all kinds. Will it kill it off for the old guard if they decided to lean entirely into this? You bet. Would it be a mistake? I'm not so sure. It might revitalize it simply due to the nature of making it more accessible. And if they did decide to stick with it, this sounds like hotfixes for balance and exploits would be orders of magnitude easier and faster. For me, this really isn't another nail in the coffin because that coffin already has so many nails there ain't no wood left!

I think the old guard would embrace this far more than the new players. Youd be suprised how much more fun the game was back when combat focused on play and counterplay instead of who has the best DLC proc sets and the most overloaded BIS ability/class.

The game was originally praised for its fighting game like combat..... Instead of being super smash bros, ESO combat today is more like Yugioh. Instead of Tech skill and Mechanics players are winning by slotting proc gear and skills that cant fail. Which was inevitable to happen with quarterly set releases after 10 years.

Combat wont be boring if you have to actually participate in it instead of relying on set procs, watching and reacting to what other players do.

It seems like they’re trying to turn Cyrodiil into a pick-up-and-play experience, catering to players who haven’t put in the hours to earn the sets, skills, and progression needed to compete.

The problem is that ESO has never been a pick-up-and-play game—that’s not what draws people to MMOs. Games like MOBAs or battle royales fulfill that niche much better. What makes an MMO special is the ability to invest time and effort into building something great, then leveraging that progression to excel and dominate.

The new campaign idea runs counter to this core appeal. Worse, the features they’re aiming for have been done better by other games for years. Instead of trying to imitate those games, ESO should focus on what sets it apart: depth, investment, and progression.

For this test, yeah. What the test would imply if successful is that skills and sets shouldnt be 5 paragraph long MLA format tooltips with 10 buffs and stacking procs. I dont see how gutting that part of the game would be bad in any way. Future sets allowed in pvp would end up being simple stat sets or stat procs like truth, fury, Clever.

Also I dont know if you see it this way, but you are basically saying that pvp should be dictated by p2w dlc set progression.....which is never accepted by any pvp community.

xylena_lazarow · January 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You are talking like acuity rallying warden with 50khp isnt the meta right now. That already exists, just go try and play bgs.

Kinda my point. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Why are they doing this instead of polishing the meta we have? They were actually doing pretty well with the recent balanced nerfs to Vamp 3, Tarnished, and Sorc Ward. This is exactly the sort of thing that's frustrated us over the years, them blowing the meta up and starting over.

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to play the new campaign.

YandereGirlfriend · January 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I can understand that people who look at this as if it is a predictor of what future PVP is going to be like may be put off.

But do we really want the devs to continue down the road of guessing what is causing performance issues and hoping they stumble on a solution without even knowing whether there is one? Because that would be the alternative.

We already know what caused the lag. The game was originally client based. Instead of cracking down on cheaters, zos transitioned as much as possible to be server side. Then to top it off, year after year they allowed design creep to happen. Everything became more complicated than they should have been including: skills, sets, status effects, passives, mechanics, animations, seige.
Does dizzy swing really need offbalance? or can it just be a simple cast time skill that does alot of damage with a knockup?

Any reason why we need proc sets that trigger off aoe dot crits, which do a stacking dot, thatlly build up and do a stun that wipes your butt for you? Actually perfect examples of this are the new proc sets they are introducing in the new update......

Do all skills need to do an effect and have a passive and debuff the enemy and apply a cc?

Do status effects really have to do damage, and do an aoe, and do more damage based on a previous effect, and debuff the enemy?

Any reason the newer dlc skills have crazy flamboyant animations that make it impossible to see important animations like CC mechanics or burst? Why am I getting hit by 12k invisible merciless when all I can see is giant arcanist tentacle spam?

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating. Sadly the changes that need to happen wont because you will basically obsolete all old content. The only way is to bite the bullet or make an ESO 2 that follows a clear standard all at once.

Sadly there are players that think paragraph long overcomplicated skills and proc sets are fun gameplay. You will see them use verbiage like "zos is dumbing down combat". Somehow they think having sets and skills that do everything for you with minimal thinking is fun gameplay. Older school players prefer more mental/technical combat back and forth: you do a stun, I block. You do a root, I roll. You prep a burst, I interrupt it.

I think that this is basically accurate.

There has been such feature-creep and unneeded complexity appended to everything in the game that it is a minor miracle that something like Cyrodiil even functions at all.

It doesn't seem as though there were any technical personnel were in the room with the designers when they were coming up with these (admittedly neat) ideas. They have simply continued to stack and stack and stack effects and mechanics on top of each other.

A great example of this is probably the Tarnished gank combo from a few patches ago: one button click -> 20-second DOT (DOTs used to be 10s then were randomly lengthened) -> each tick can Crit or not -> if Crits then Tarnished procs -> Tarnished deals AOE damage + procs Sundered -> Sundered reduces Armor of all targets and increases wearer's base Weapon Damage for four seconds -> Tarnished goes on cooldown -> DOT continues to Crit when off of cooldown and proc Tarnished all over again, a maximum of 3 times. All for ONE button click. With overloaded mechanics like this it's no wonder at all that the server chugs.

Muizer · January 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its simple...... the game has had a decade of people designing with no standard to prevent bloating.

And the only sensible way to undo that is to strip it all down and build it back up, except this time with due care and attention to impacts on performance.

merevie · January 11

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im ok with a test like this if they push it, then add stuff in and stay on top of adding things in pretty quickly.

I keep thinking of the no proc test, which i enjoyed; but then they pushed it to a permanent campaign and didn't try to push more variety to see what worked. It was too limited for me beyond just the test; and this one will be way more limited.

I'm not sure why people think it's an event to just quit over. It's 1 week and then probably can be ignored

They are not saying it's one test. We have been through this before with Zos. It was horrific, lots of people quit the game and they did NOTHING with the results. Have you seen them mention those past tests and what they learnt anywhere? Why will it be different this time?