Tanlorin Murdered Someone

Gabriel_H · November 18

So, while in town, I accidentally hit someone. My bad. Didn't mean to.

I sheathed my weapons and started to move away, ignoring the tiny hits the NPC was doing ... then suddenly Tanlorin jumps into action, and I watch with horror as they brutally beat the poor guy to death!

Then ... then ... THEN ... they get annoyed at me for murdering someone - when they are the one committing murder - and their rapport goes down by -10!

LunaFlora · November 18

yes it's because you initiated combat with the npc and anything companions kill is technically your kill.

Companions will keep hitting NPC's until they're dead, unless you unsummon the companion.

Erickson9610 · November 18

LunaFlora wrote: »

yes it's because you initiated combat with the npc and anything companions kill is technically your kill.

Companions will keep hitting NPC's until they're dead, unless you unsummon the companion.

That, or you can use the hotkey Y + Right Click to call your Companion back to your side and get them to stop attacking.

Gabriel_H · November 18

LunaFlora wrote: »

yes it's because you initiated combat with the npc and anything companions kill is technically your kill.

Companions will keep hitting NPC's until they're dead, unless you unsummon the companion.

I know. I'm being facetious about the poor state of the companion AI.

Hapexamendios · November 18

If you just spoiled something in her story, that's not cool. No, I didn't read the post just in caee it got worse.

LanteanPegasus · November 18

@Hapexamendios
No Spoilers

They didn't spoil anything. It is a complaint about the companion AI regarding combat encounters. So, you can read the post and there will be no spoilers.

Monte_Cristo · November 18

I had that happen once with Bastian

Rasande_Robin · November 18

Isn't there a faster way to lose rapport than murder? The first of the day is -10 then the rest is only -1.

There should be a quest that they absolutely despise that gives -125. Just as there is one that gives +125.

spartaxoxo · November 18

Companion watches you start a fight with a citizen.

They see the citizen is trying to kill you.

They kill the citizen to save you because you're being attacked.

They get angry that you put them in that position and now someone died needlessly. They'll always choose to watch your back but that doesn't mean they'll always like it.

I don't think that's bad AI. You can recall the companion to stop them from attacking the npc.

AcadianPaladin · November 18

Long ago, my elf accidently grabbed (stole) a potion instead of activating a merchant. She felt bad enough but when Bastion belittled her for it, she permanently fired him. Not more than perhaps a week later she ended up in almost the exact same circumstances except she was traveling with Mirri. One of the NPCs attacked my elf. Mirri instantly jumped in and killed the NPC who was attacking 'her' small elven healer companion. Despite the resultant strong reaction by the guards, it was on that day Mirri earned a permanent spot at my elf's side.

Syldras · November 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think that's bad AI.

It would be possible to program companions not to attack certain groups of npcs depending on the companion's moral status. All npcs have a group assigned to them anyway (friendly/neutral npcs have commoner, provisioner, sailor, noble, beggar,... as an example).

spartaxoxo · November 18

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think that's bad AI.

It would be possible to program companions not to attack certain groups of npcs depending on the companion's moral status. All npcs have a group assigned to them anyway (friendly/neutral npcs have commoner, provisioner, sailor, noble, beggar,... as an example).

That would be bad AI because then the companion would just be letting their ally get killed because of the job title of the npc.

The companion already is only attacking them to defend you from harm. It's on the player to let the companion it isn't necessary by pressing the recall button.

Syldras · November 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

That would be bad AI because then the companion would just be letting their ally get killed because of the job title of the npc.
The companion already is only attacking them to defend you from harm. It's on the player to let the companion it isn't necessary by pressing the recall button.

If the npc is clearly marked as friendly or neutral and then gets attacked by the player character, from the perspective of the companion it's their friend attacking an innocent (which some dislike, which leads to a disposition drop). I don't find the mindset "My friend is doing that, but I find it immoral and therefore won't participate" to be "bad AI", but realistic.

At least if I imagine the situation, if a friend of mine would randomly beat up someone, I would not participate just because it's my friend, but I would interfere, try to stop him and ask whether he has lost his mind. I see this wouldn't work well in ESO, but not participating would be possible, especially when the player character is clearly running away and not continuing the attack on the innocent npc. We're talking about friendly npcs with the "commoner" (or a similar) tag, indicating they are friendly, not very powerful, low healthpoint npcs - no real danger, even if turned aggressive. The game can clearly distinguish between that npc type and other aggressive and more powerful types, and therefore a companion npc could also.

spartaxoxo · November 18

Person A shoves Person B
B pulls out a knife and tries to kill A
A tries to run away

Most people would try to stop B, not the one running away.

The companion is defending you from someone trying to kill you in the scenario posted by the OP. I'd expect my companion to take my side if someone's trying to kill me even if they'd be pissed about it afterward.

Syldras · November 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Person A shoves Person B
Person B pulls out a knife and tries to kill person A
Person A tries to run away
Most people would try to stop Person B, not the one running away.
The companion is defending you from someone trying to kill you in the scenario posted by the OP.

It's more the other way around: The player character hits the innocent commoner with a mace, sword or destructive spell, and many commoners fight back rather helplessly, often not even with a weapon, but by punching.

My opinion remains: Even if companions can be unsummoned in combat if one wants them to stop attacking someone, they could have been programmed in a way that their moral stance shows in (combat) situations, like not participating in the attack of innocents. I'd find that more realistic.

spartaxoxo · November 18

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Person A shoves Person B
Person B pulls out a knife and tries to kill person A
Person A tries to run away
Most people would try to stop Person B, not the one running away.
The companion is defending you from someone trying to kill you in the scenario posted by the OP.

It's more the other way around: The player character hits the innocent commoner with a mace, sword or destructive spell, and many commoners fight back rather helplessly, often not even with a weapon, but by punching.

My opinion remains: Even if companions can be unsummoned in combat if one wants them to stop attacking someone, they could have been programmed in a way that their moral stance shows in (combat) situations, like not participating in the attack of innocents. I'd find that more realistic.

I get there's a big power difference. But my opinion is also the same: that my companions would not let someone kill me while I was attempting to flee, regardless of who they are. I don't find it realistic for Bastian to be like "Yeah he's trying to beat you to death but he's a dock worker. So, you deserve to die." I'd expect him to defend me and then let me have it once I am no longer in danger.

Elsonso · November 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Companion watches you start a fight with a citizen.

They see the citizen is trying to kill you.

They kill the citizen to save you because you're being attacked.

They get angry that you put them in that position and now someone died needlessly. They'll always choose to watch your back but that doesn't mean they'll always like it.

I don't think that's bad AI. You can recall the companion to stop them from attacking the npc.

Yeah, it is bad AI or bad dfesign.

If the retainer is willing to kill an innocent that the boss attacked (deliberately or accidentally), while the boss runs away, they should not be picky about the boss attacking innocents.

If the companion is against murdering innocents, a proper AI would have them refuse to attack the innocent.

old_scopie1945 · November 18

I got caught pickpocketing with Ember. As I was making my escape I noticed that my bounty was shooting up drastically. Ember had gone into full psycho mode. Fumbling with my keyboard I pulled her back to me asap. Needless to say that was the last crime spree outing Ember went on. Companions are drastically lacking in commands that you can give them.

spartaxoxo · November 18

Elsonso wrote: »

If the retainer is willing to kill an innocent that the boss attacked (deliberately or accidentally), while the boss runs away, they should not be picky about the boss attacking innocents.

If someone is running away, then they are no longer a threat. Any claims of self-defense go out the window. The person attacking you is enraged and trying to kill you. What kind of bodyguard allows someone to kill their boss?

Elsonso · November 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

If the retainer is willing to kill an innocent that the boss attacked (deliberately or accidentally), while the boss runs away, they should not be picky about the boss attacking innocents.

If someone is running away, then they are no longer a threat. Any claims of self-defense go out the window. The person attacking you is enraged and trying to kill you. What kind of bodyguard allows someone to kill their boss?

You missed the part where the boss took a swing at an innocent and then ran away while the retainer who dislikes murder has to deal with it. Maybe the retainer should be talking to the attacker to get them to stop rather than murdering them?

Again, if the companion is willing to murder an innocent, then they really should not be picky about the subject.

Bad AI or bad design.

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

I got caught pickpocketing with Ember. As I was making my escape I noticed that my bounty was shooting up drastically. Ember had gone into full psycho mode. Fumbling with my keyboard I pulled her back to me asap. Needless to say that was the last crime spree outing Ember went on. Companions are drastically lacking in commands that you can give them.

I never take Ember with me when I am doing crime. If I mess up, she doesn't like it. I mess up a lot.

spartaxoxo · November 18

Elsonso wrote: »

You missed the part where the boss took a swing at an innocent and then ran away while the retainer who dislikes murder has to deal with it. Maybe the retainer should be talking to the attacker to get them to stop rather than murdering them?

Again, if the companion is willing to murder an innocent, then they really should not be picky about the subject.

Bad AI or bad design.

I didn't miss that part. The threat to the civilian is over when the boss started running away. Defense of self or others isn't murder, even though both actions involve killing. I would agree that a companion that dislikes murder shouldn't be able to sent to deal the first blow to an innocent.

Varana · November 18

And as others have pointed out, you can set companions (or pets) to passive, telling them to stop murdering the NPC.
In this case, they didn't.
Which means they were okay with the companion clobbering the NPC to death.

Gabriel_H · November 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They see the citizen is trying to kill you.

"Kill" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting there. My base health regen outhealed the damage by a wide margin.

Pelanora · November 19

Ember was mad I'd bundled the heist, so she killed everyone in the room that witnessed it. Every last one of them. Ember is the real deal.

OtarTheMad · November 19

It's not bad AI when we have ways to recall them or stop them. The innocent citizen also turns into a hostile upon attack, so when that happens, be better to just use one of the methods to stop the companion. What I do is I usually turn the prevent attack innocents on in the settings when I enter a city, unless I am doing something sinister and in that case I won't have a companion out anyway.

Gabriel_H · November 19

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It's not bad AI when we have ways to recall them or stop them.

It is when their actions are something that is against their core principles. Having to recall them or stop them isn't AI either, it's player action.

zaria · November 19

LunaFlora wrote: »

yes it's because you initiated combat with the npc and anything companions kill is technically your kill.

Companions will keep hitting NPC's until they're dead, unless you unsummon the companion.

This, as the target turn red the companion or any combat pet will attack.
This is usually nice as companions will often engage enemies you pull wile harvesting resources or containers.

I tend to keep prevent attacking friendlies to on by default its so easy doing an LA with an staff by accident.