I agree there's definitely a risk that comes with playing in melee range that should be rewarded, but we also have to be mindful that with any changes we suggest there's a chance it upsets balance in 1) PVE and 2)fighting ball groups. In light of that we could perhaps utilize the Reach passive in the Assault skill line. Perhaps something like this:

Current Reach passive:
Increases the range of long-range abilities by 2/5 meters while near a keep or outpost. Any ability with a range greater than 28 meters is affected.

New Proximity passive:
Increases either the range or damage of single target abilities while near an objective. When targeting an enemy at a range greater than 28 meters, increase the range by 2/5 meters. When targeting an enemy at a range less than 10 meters, increase the damage by 2/5%.

Something like that perhaps? That way PVE is unaffected by any changes, and at the same time restricting it to single target attacks, the ball groups who rely on AOE attacks would also not be inadvertently buffed.

Oh yeah, the numbers can be tweaked, absolutely. But consider the 2h weapon where all abilities are melee. It's possible either the individual skills or specifically 2h passives need a buff instead of tweaking the reach passive. In your first post you compare the damage of dswing and mention no 2h passives, and compare that to snipe + bow passives + assault passives. Are 2h passives too weak, are bow passives doing too much? Something to consider.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

There is a lot of risk in running a melee build, especially in the meta ZOS has created where most players stand 35-40 meters away and try to nuke each other down. However, there is little reward with this melee play style as the melee weapon skills do not hit much harder than their ranged counterparts. It has created a significant imbalance in the game.

For example unbuffed dizzy hits for 9719 on one of my builds. I have to be within 7 meters for this to land

Snipe unbuffed on the same build hits for 8197 plus 5 percent within 15 meters plus 1314 critical. Snipe has a 35m range unbuffed by Reach passive and 40 buffed.

This is absolutely not balanced.

Dizzy, and other single target weapon skills, should hit significantly harder given the resources required to position oneself within range of a ranged enemy before someone can actually hit them.

Snipe is a poor comparison because it's cast time is ridiculously slow. You cannot really spam snipe.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare skills like force pulse, magnum shot, soul wield, swallow soul, screaming cliff racer etc.

As for melee... Make gap closers great again. It shouldn't be too difficult to get close to a ranged caster if you slot a gap closer.

I used snipe and dizzy specifically because they both have .8 second cast time. Gap closers cost resources...

NB is the weakest pvp class ! Buff it ! 🤣
Seriously dude...

Nightblade isn't that bad. If you catch them they'll die.

Trying to kill a sorc thats spamming hardened ward is busted.

Buff melee damage

Remove all the cast times from melee attacks. Put cast times on all the ranged attacks.

Melee fighters need to be fast and dextrous to function at all.

Ranged casters actually have the time and opportunity to you know, cast.

They've had it absolutely backwards for a while now, i.e. the design of Wield Soul vs 2h Smash.

Elendir2am wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

NB is the weakest pvp class ! Buff it ! 🤣
Seriously dude...

Not sure if you posted on the wrong thread...but thanks for replying anyway...

No one is arguing nb isn't broken but everyone has access to melee weapons, which is what this thread is about... single target melee weapon skills needing a buff... I mean, it's in the title.

Your suggestion is buffing NBs and tower runners.

It buffs all melee damage at least for 2h. If nbs get a buff then, perhaps nb need to be looked at.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Remove all the cast times from melee attacks. Put cast times on all the ranged attacks.

Melee fighters need to be fast and dextrous to function at all.

Ranged casters actually have the time and opportunity to you know, cast.

They've had it absolutely backwards for a while now, i.e. the design of Wield Soul vs 2h Smash.

This is a great thought and I agree 👍💯.

Elendir2am wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Not so much that melee needs a buff rather than range damage needs a nerf.

Nerfing offense in game where tank is meta of PvP is brilliant idea rely.

Tank meta is only a thing you achieve through optimizing as a group (which is fairly easy with how strong the powercreep has been since they introduced hybridization. Scribing was the pandora´s box that unleashed crazy amount of power creep). That and CP enables for you to achieve very tanky builds. But with the change to undeath it´s very noticeable that people are a lot squishier.

The problem with ranged damage is that you can stack and absurd amount of instances within a very small frame, which you can´t do in the same way with a melee playstyle (I´m not talking about lining up burst with skills, but rather that you can stack 10+ instances of damage in 1-2 gdc´s with stuff like status effects, enchants dmg, light attack dmg, procs etc etc).

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

There is a lot of risk in running a melee build, especially in the meta ZOS has created where most players stand 35-40 meters away and try to nuke each other down. However, there is little reward with this melee play style as the melee weapon skills do not hit much harder than their ranged counterparts. It has created a significant imbalance in the game.

For example unbuffed dizzy hits for 9719 on one of my builds. I have to be within 7 meters for this to land

Snipe unbuffed on the same build hits for 8197 plus 5 percent within 15 meters plus 1314 critical. Snipe has a 35m range unbuffed by Reach passive and 40 buffed.

This is absolutely not balanced.

Dizzy, and other single target weapon skills, should hit significantly harder given the resources required to position oneself within range of a ranged enemy before someone can actually hit them.

Snipe is a poor comparison because it's cast time is ridiculously slow. You cannot really spam snipe.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare skills like force pulse, magnum shot, soul wield, swallow soul, screaming cliff racer etc.

As for melee... Make gap closers great again. It shouldn't be too difficult to get close to a ranged caster if you slot a gap closer.

This. Can't even count how many times a sorc has double streaked out of gap closing abilities. Then turn around and nuke you from out of range of your skills, gap closers or even the ability to simply get in range with full max speed cap.

This says more about how build issues and lack of understanding how to fight a sorc can make sorc sometimes seem much stronger in range advantage than it is. Most classes have pretty good ability to counter the sorc ranged damage when built and played properly. I'm say that as someone who mains sorc and notices a big difference between those I can blow up at range and those that are prepared to defend against ranged.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

There is a lot of risk in running a melee build, especially in the meta ZOS has created where most players stand 35-40 meters away and try to nuke each other down. However, there is little reward with this melee play style as the melee weapon skills do not hit much harder than their ranged counterparts. It has created a significant imbalance in the game.

For example unbuffed dizzy hits for 9719 on one of my builds. I have to be within 7 meters for this to land

Snipe unbuffed on the same build hits for 8197 plus 5 percent within 15 meters plus 1314 critical. Snipe has a 35m range unbuffed by Reach passive and 40 buffed.

This is absolutely not balanced.

Dizzy, and other single target weapon skills, should hit significantly harder given the resources required to position oneself within range of a ranged enemy before someone can actually hit them.

Snipe is a poor comparison because it's cast time is ridiculously slow. You cannot really spam snipe.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare skills like force pulse, magnum shot, soul wield, swallow soul, screaming cliff racer etc.

As for melee... Make gap closers great again. It shouldn't be too difficult to get close to a ranged caster if you slot a gap closer.

This. Can't even count how many times a sorc has double streaked out of gap closing abilities. Then turn around and nuke you from out of range of your skills, gap closers or even the ability to simply get in range with full max speed cap.

This says more about how build issues and lack of understanding how to fight a sorc can make sorc sometimes seem much stronger in range advantage than it is. Most classes have pretty good ability to counter the sorc ranged damage when built and played properly. I'm say that as someone who mains sorc and notices a big difference between those I can blow up at range and those that are prepared to defend against ranged.

It's not just sorc. All ranged damage is comparatively strong to weapon melee damage from a risk reward perspective. I dont think it's balanced, which is why I opened the thread and used snipe and dizzy as the examples. They have the same cast times and the numbers above speak to how you can do, basically, 11% less damage from 40 meters away as dizzy from stealth and or complete safety. This isn't balanced imho.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

There is a lot of risk in running a melee build, especially in the meta ZOS has created where most players stand 35-40 meters away and try to nuke each other down. However, there is little reward with this melee play style as the melee weapon skills do not hit much harder than their ranged counterparts. It has created a significant imbalance in the game.

For example unbuffed dizzy hits for 9719 on one of my builds. I have to be within 7 meters for this to land

Snipe unbuffed on the same build hits for 8197 plus 5 percent within 15 meters plus 1314 critical. Snipe has a 35m range unbuffed by Reach passive and 40 buffed.

This is absolutely not balanced.

Dizzy, and other single target weapon skills, should hit significantly harder given the resources required to position oneself within range of a ranged enemy before someone can actually hit them.

Snipe is a poor comparison because it's cast time is ridiculously slow. You cannot really spam snipe.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare skills like force pulse, magnum shot, soul wield, swallow soul, screaming cliff racer etc.

As for melee... Make gap closers great again. It shouldn't be too difficult to get close to a ranged caster if you slot a gap closer.

This. Can't even count how many times a sorc has double streaked out of gap closing abilities. Then turn around and nuke you from out of range of your skills, gap closers or even the ability to simply get in range with full max speed cap.

This says more about how build issues and lack of understanding how to fight a sorc can make sorc sometimes seem much stronger in range advantage than it is. Most classes have pretty good ability to counter the sorc ranged damage when built and played properly. I'm say that as someone who mains sorc and notices a big difference between those I can blow up at range and those that are prepared to defend against ranged.

Not really sure what you mean...pretty sure I know how to fight a sorc, as I've been doing it for 10 years. Even my toons at speed cap can't keep up with a sorc that double taps streak to get within range. Aside from closing the gap, Sorcs as of late have almost no drawbacks expect fighting outnumbered. One on one a sorc can easily face tank the highest DPS toons by simply shield stacking over and over until they just get bored. On the other end Sorcs are regularly hitting 12k curses, 10k frags and the RNG on Cfrag is laughable at best....may as well just give the insta-cast high damage part as the base skill it is so easy to proc.

The topic is melee ST damage versus ranged, the comment was on Gap closers - which are all buggy, and less than optimal range.
Sorc's streak is easily the least buggy gap closer, as it doesn't require a target. Even a simple stone on the ground that adjusts a players height slightly is enough to mess up targeting with gap closers (however, this is a coding issue not a player issue).
Any half decent sorc will put up wards, drop curse, double streak away behind LOS to break gap closers, then Cfrag and execute all while spamming the new scribing ranged spammable

Those same pebbles that mess up gap closers, also mess up streak just as much (speaking from experience as someone who has been caught by invisible pebbles multiples times when casting streak where streak just ports me in place or like barely 5m distance).
Back onto the main topic though, the main issue for ranged becoming so strong has been the recent changes to status effects. Most ranged abilities have strong status effects attached (some even have multiple) and thanks to how strong ZOS made status effects, ranged attacks have subsequently made up the damage gap that existed before.

An easy way to fix this, would be to have status effects applied at melee range deal 10% more damage on the initial hit. This brings the overall damage gap back to that 10% that it used to be instead of the now ~5% or less that it became when status effects got changed about a year ago.

As for gap closers, that one is a bit more difficult. They don't get used, partly because everyone has gotten comfortable just running the same standard CC + Spammable + delayed burst + ele sus as their "offensive rotation" that was all everyone needed for such a long time.
Gap closers are an offensive ability and thus won't fit into the expanded utility or defense slots that everyone has gotten so used to having on their bars (DKs and sorcs being the exception due to leap being such a strong offense ability on top of being a gap closer and streak filling the CC slot on sorcs bar), so to run a gap closer means dropping CC, delayed burst or ele sus. CC is mandatory, so can't be dropped, delayed burst is the best way to close out fights due to U35, that just leaves ele sus, which is currently far too strong of an ability to consider dropping, especially since it can be combined with ice staff for equal defensive utility to sword and shield on the back bar, creating very powerful roll compression (another problem caused by ice staff being changed to be a tanking weapon instead of making a new staff line dedicated to tanking).

Not really an easy way to fix this, the best way would be to remove the tanking aspects from frost staff and create a new staff skill line (alteration/illusion or something) dedicated to the tanking role. Combine this with an adjustment to ele sus and some small utility given to gap closers and gap closers would be worth considering again for that 4th offensive skill bar slot.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

There is a lot of risk in running a melee build, especially in the meta ZOS has created where most players stand 35-40 meters away and try to nuke each other down. However, there is little reward with this melee play style as the melee weapon skills do not hit much harder than their ranged counterparts. It has created a significant imbalance in the game.

For example unbuffed dizzy hits for 9719 on one of my builds. I have to be within 7 meters for this to land

Snipe unbuffed on the same build hits for 8197 plus 5 percent within 15 meters plus 1314 critical. Snipe has a 35m range unbuffed by Reach passive and 40 buffed.

This is absolutely not balanced.

Dizzy, and other single target weapon skills, should hit significantly harder given the resources required to position oneself within range of a ranged enemy before someone can actually hit them.

Snipe is a poor comparison because it's cast time is ridiculously slow. You cannot really spam snipe.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare skills like force pulse, magnum shot, soul wield, swallow soul, screaming cliff racer etc.

As for melee... Make gap closers great again. It shouldn't be too difficult to get close to a ranged caster if you slot a gap closer.

This. Can't even count how many times a sorc has double streaked out of gap closing abilities. Then turn around and nuke you from out of range of your skills, gap closers or even the ability to simply get in range with full max speed cap.

This says more about how build issues and lack of understanding how to fight a sorc can make sorc sometimes seem much stronger in range advantage than it is. Most classes have pretty good ability to counter the sorc ranged damage when built and played properly. I'm say that as someone who mains sorc and notices a big difference between those I can blow up at range and those that are prepared to defend against ranged.

Not really sure what you mean...pretty sure I know how to fight a sorc, as I've been doing it for 10 years. Even my toons at speed cap can't keep up with a sorc that double taps streak to get within range. Aside from closing the gap, Sorcs as of late have almost no drawbacks expect fighting outnumbered. One on one a sorc can easily face tank the highest DPS toons by simply shield stacking over and over until they just get bored. On the other end Sorcs are regularly hitting 12k curses, 10k frags and the RNG on Cfrag is laughable at best....may as well just give the insta-cast high damage part as the base skill it is so easy to proc.

The topic is melee ST damage versus ranged, the comment was on Gap closers - which are all buggy, and less than optimal range.
Sorc's streak is easily the least buggy gap closer, as it doesn't require a target. Even a simple stone on the ground that adjusts a players height slightly is enough to mess up targeting with gap closers (however, this is a coding issue not a player issue).
Any half decent sorc will put up wards, drop curse, double streak away behind LOS to break gap closers, then Cfrag and execute all while spamming the new scribing ranged spammable

Those same pebbles that mess up gap closers, also mess up streak just as much (speaking from experience as someone who has been caught by invisible pebbles multiples times when casting streak where streak just ports me in place or like barely 5m distance).

I'd also like some of these sorcs you're fighting to share their frags rng luck with me please. I'm lucky if I get more than 1 proc every 4-5 casts in a typical fight and have had countless fights where it would take 10 casts before I got a frags proc.

I'd also like some of this extended range that these sorcs you're fighting seem to have on their streak casts, I've had DKs and plars (you know, those immobile "defend the house" classes) easily chase me down without gap closers all while still casting abilities on me despite using streak multiple times in a row to create distance.

12k curses also sounds like you're not blocking curse at all (FYI, it can be blocked now, that was changed a couple patches ago when ZOS made it completely AoE for PvE, so get to blocking when you see curse about to explode).

As for frags damage, it's supposed to hit hard, it's basically a delayed burst ability with how clunky hard casting frags is.

Back onto the main topic though, the main issue for ranged becoming so strong has been the recent changes to status effects. Most ranged abilities have strong status effects attached (some even have multiple) and thanks to how strong ZOS made status effects, ranged attacks have subsequently made up the damage gap that existed before.

An easy way to fix this, would be to have status effects applied at melee range deal 10% more damage on the initial hit. This brings the overall damage gap back to that 10% that it used to be instead of the now ~5% or less that it became when status effects got changed about a year ago.

As for gap closers, that one is a bit more difficult. They don't get used, partly because everyone has gotten comfortable just running the same standard CC + Spammable + delayed burst + ele sus as their "offensive rotation" that was all everyone needed for such a long time.
Gap closers are an offensive ability and thus won't fit into the expanded utility or defense slots that everyone has gotten so used to having on their bars (DKs and sorcs being the exception due to leap being such a strong offense ability on top of being a gap closer and streak filling the CC slot on sorcs bar), so to run a gap closer means dropping CC, delayed burst or ele sus. CC is mandatory, so can't be dropped, delayed burst is the best way to close out fights due to U35, that just leaves ele sus, which is currently far too strong of an ability to consider dropping, especially since it can be combined with ice staff for equal defensive utility to sword and shield on the back bar, creating very powerful roll compression (another problem caused by ice staff being changed to be a tanking weapon instead of making a new staff line dedicated to tanking).

Not really an easy way to fix this, the best way would be to remove the tanking aspects from frost staff and create a new staff skill line (alteration/illusion or something) dedicated to the tanking role. Combine this with an adjustment to ele sus and some small utility given to gap closers and gap closers would be worth considering again for that 4th offensive skill bar slot.

You make some good points. I'd prefer to buff single target melee damage instead of nerfing anything... but only single target otherwise everyone will be running spin to win.

Also, cc is not essential. I ran no cc on my dk for years and did really well in 1vx cyro and in bgs and I don't run a cc on my warden or my plar. I think cc is a wasted slot imho.

Depends on the CC I guess, can be true though.

I know I have ran sorc without streak (running RaT instead) in the past (admittedly I also run a lot of niche builds on sorc too, never sticking to just mag stacking or wards).

Against good players, especially if you want to land a combo, some form of CC is (almost) mandatory for that, not really for the stun, but more for the stam-check pressure, from my experience at least. Although that has gotten significantly harder with all the sustain being given out.