HatchetHaro wrote: »Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.
There is discord for that
spartaxoxo wrote: »SteveCampsOut wrote: »
NO they do not. Unless they are specifically targeting companies. The privacy guarantees are to keep government out of our lives, not to stop corporations from operating how they see fit. You see companies firing people for what they do in their private lives all the time if the company thinks it reflects badly on the company.
Privacy laws absolutely affect companies. ZOS literally listed some they are compliant with. And EU protection are generally stronger than the US
JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SteveCampsOut wrote: »
NO they do not. Unless they are specifically targeting companies. The privacy guarantees are to keep government out of our lives, not to stop corporations from operating how they see fit. You see companies firing people for what they do in their private lives all the time if the company thinks it reflects badly on the company.
Privacy laws absolutely affect companies. ZOS literally listed some they are compliant with. And EU protection are generally stronger than the US
Privacy laws, and private data, do NOT pertain to discussions and things you post (at least not from what I have found, might be different in the EU). They pertain to private data, such as personally identifiable information (which you should NOT be posting in a chat, private or not, unless you are okay with the potential of someone else getting a hold of said information) and things like financial information, passwords and such.
So, to my very limited and un-lawyer knowledge, a person posting swear words and/or slurs, or things that a company says they don't allow on their site, and that data being sent to someone for moderation does NOT fall under privacy laws, at least not the one I found. Now, if the company was sending your passwords and credit card information, THAT would fall under the data privacy laws.
Now, full disclosure, I am American, and thus the information I found was specifically for American laws. It could be that the EU and other countries have looser definitions of what constitues 'private data'
JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »It could be that the EU and other countries have looser definitions of what constitues 'private data'
HatchetHaro wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.
There is discord for that
Discord does not have support for ESO characters, emotes, and mementos, all of which enhance (and in my opinion, are integral to) the in-game roleplay experience.
You can change your discord name to your ESO character name. Instead of using text.. use voice (Discord).. you can still use emotes and mementos in-game.
It's their game, their servers. You don't have the right to privacy using their chat system.
So when you use your phone, the service provider has the right to hear your calls?
Or when you use internet, your internet provider has the right to track your chats?
You always use some company systems and infrasctructure, this doesn't change your rights for privacy guaranteed by law.
This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT
This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
spartaxoxo wrote: »SteveCampsOut wrote: »
NO they do not. Unless they are specifically targeting companies. The privacy guarantees are to keep government out of our lives, not to stop corporations from operating how they see fit. You see companies firing people for what they do in their private lives all the time if the company thinks it reflects badly on the company.
Privacy laws absolutely affect companies. ZOS literally listed some they are compliant with. And EU protection are generally stronger than the US
SteveCampsOut wrote: »This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT
This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
Communications is a big word. Not all communications are protected. This game falls under the laws concerning "Media" since it is a Media provider. When you publish something to a Media Provider, it's not protected by privacy laws unless it's concerning your actual Identity data like name, address, credit card and other finance data that the game keeps on file to accept your payment for their services. Chats, whispers and in game communications are not the same as ISP emails because of this. If you're so bugged out by this, take it up with a lawyer or, in EU's case, a Barista.
Yes, and yes. It's in the terms of service you have to agree to before using their services.
In the USA, that might be legal (I don't know), but in EU law as well as in the laws of several EU countries, communication by phone, e-mail and letters is protected.
This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT
This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
(2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary agencies appointed by the legislature."
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0059
It's doubtless, really: No one is allowed to spy on your phone calls, no one is allowed to open your letters (not even your spouse), and internet service providers can't just monitor everything you are doing either.
The big question is how these laws apply to game chats. If they are considered part of the game's functions, it might be seen differently, I don't know.
SteveCampsOut wrote: »This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT
This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
Communications is a big word. Not all communications are protected. This game falls under the laws concerning "Media" since it is a Media provider. When you publish something to a Media Provider, it's not protected by privacy laws unless it's concerning your actual Identity data like name, address, credit card and other finance data that the game keeps on file to accept your payment for their services. Chats, whispers and in game communications are not the same as ISP emails because of this. If you're so bugged out by this, take it up with a lawyer or, in EU's case, a Barista.
Next time you complain, at least take the time to read and quote my post fully (and look at what I was replying to - the question was NOT about the ESO chat, but about phone and internet service providers):Yes, and yes. It's in the terms of service you have to agree to before using their services.
In the USA, that might be legal (I don't know), but in EU law as well as in the laws of several EU countries, communication by phone, e-mail and letters is protected.
This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT
This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
(2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary agencies appointed by the legislature."
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0059
It's doubtless, really: No one is allowed to spy on your phone calls, no one is allowed to open your letters (not even your spouse), and internet service providers can't just monitor everything you are doing either.
The big question is how these laws apply to game chats. If they are considered part of the game's functions, it might be seen differently, I don't know.
Highlighted the bold parts extra for you.
Also, the only person who seems agitated here is you. I was just replying to a question.
spartaxoxo wrote: »JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SteveCampsOut wrote: »
NO they do not. Unless they are specifically targeting companies. The privacy guarantees are to keep government out of our lives, not to stop corporations from operating how they see fit. You see companies firing people for what they do in their private lives all the time if the company thinks it reflects badly on the company.
Privacy laws absolutely affect companies. ZOS literally listed some they are compliant with. And EU protection are generally stronger than the US
Privacy laws, and private data, do NOT pertain to discussions and things you post (at least not from what I have found, might be different in the EU). They pertain to private data, such as personally identifiable information (which you should NOT be posting in a chat, private or not, unless you are okay with the potential of someone else getting a hold of said information) and things like financial information, passwords and such.
So, to my very limited and un-lawyer knowledge, a person posting swear words and/or slurs, or things that a company says they don't allow on their site, and that data being sent to someone for moderation does NOT fall under privacy laws, at least not the one I found. Now, if the company was sending your passwords and credit card information, THAT would fall under the data privacy laws.
Now, full disclosure, I am American, and thus the information I found was specifically for American laws. It could be that the EU and other countries have looser definitions of what constitues 'private data'
The Electronic Communications Privacy Act protects private communication from access without prior consent. There are limited carve outs for surveillance by the company that stores it. ZOS entertainment obviously feels that they the ability to do this due to prior consent through the TOS as well as limited surveillance being permissible as the ones storing that data.
I am not a lawyer so I don't know if that's 100% accurate. But that's what Google is telling me is that private communications are protected and that there limited carve outs for the ones storing the data (so ZOS).
JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »It could be that the EU and other countries have looser definitions of what constitues 'private data'
In EU it's definitively the communication itself that is protected, no matter if sensitive info is transmitted or not. The only question is whether it applies to in-game chats. It's absolutely clear with phone calls and letters (or other items transported by a postal service), but with the many different ways communication takes place online, it's all less clear. Politics is often rather slow with new technological developments.
Guide for manufacturers, publishers and operators of online games
If a chat option is offered in an online game, this is usually a telemedia service. If the communication is aimed at a limited and clearly defined group of people, the strict secrecy of telecommunications may also apply to the transport route, to which the Telecommunications Act then applies. Chat content may therefore generally not be monitored or recorded without authorization in the event that it is not visible to everyone.
While chat systems are designed for group discussions, many online games also offer the option for two players to communicate directly with each other (so-called personal messages or private messages (PM)). In-game systems for exchanging messages and interfaces to an email service can be offered.
The transport of emails and other messages is usually a telecommunications service, so telecommunications secrecy applies. If the online game offers the option of writing messages (upstream) and reading messages (downstream), then these are telemedia services. The game operator is generally not allowed to view private communications between players. This also applies to the administrator when maintaining the systems.
I found a handbook by the German government, unfortunately it's in German, an official translation is not available, and it's also from 2010, which means it might not be up to date. So it does NOT help in the current discussion.
I find it interesting nonetheless because it gives clear info on how the topic was seen back then. And indeed, online chat and private messages were considered to be protected by the privacy law.
A translation:Guide for manufacturers, publishers and operators of online games
If a chat option is offered in an online game, this is usually a telemedia service. If the communication is aimed at a limited and clearly defined group of people, the strict secrecy of telecommunications may also apply to the transport route, to which the Telecommunications Act then applies. Chat content may therefore generally not be monitored or recorded without authorization in the event that it is not visible to everyone.
While chat systems are designed for group discussions, many online games also offer the option for two players to communicate directly with each other (so-called personal messages or private messages (PM)). In-game systems for exchanging messages and interfaces to an email service can be offered.
The transport of emails and other messages is usually a telecommunications service, so telecommunications secrecy applies. If the online game offers the option of writing messages (upstream) and reading messages (downstream), then these are telemedia services. The game operator is generally not allowed to view private communications between players. This also applies to the administrator when maintaining the systems.
JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »It could be that the EU and other countries have looser definitions of what constitues 'private data'
In EU it's definitively the communication itself that is protected, no matter if sensitive info is transmitted or not. The only question is whether it applies to in-game chats. It's absolutely clear with phone calls and letters (or other items transported by a postal service), but with the many different ways communication takes place online, it's all less clear. Politics is often rather slow with new technological developments.
Yeah, I know in the US, the mail is federally protected and I assume the law would need a court order to open it, and we do have laws about no one being legally allowed to open mail unless it is addressed to them.
I also know that we do have laws about communications over the telephone, but never looked into that enough to know exactly what it is about (I figure anyone stupid enought to listen to my conversations deserves the boredom they will get), but also that I believe the court can order the carrier to show certain records.
AS you said, with the internet, laws tend to be further behind, and I don't know how the TOS actually works. Spartaxoxo mentioned that with one of the US laws, it is illegal without prior consent, but would the TOS be considered 'prior consent' because you agreed to it when you signed up?
I have the feeling this is something that *only* someone who has extensive legal experience with this particular type of situation would truly be able to answer. We can only really speculate.
Anyway, I don't think that this thread is really going to accomplish anything further, so I am going to *try* to back out and not respond further (my willpower isn't always the best:P)
SteveCampsOut wrote: »So it's a "Guide", not a law.
HatchetHaro wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.
There is discord for that
Discord does not have support for ESO characters, emotes, and mementos, all of which enhance (and in my opinion, are integral to) the in-game roleplay experience.
HatchetHaro wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.
There is discord for that
Discord does not have support for ESO characters, emotes, and mementos, all of which enhance (and in my opinion, are integral to) the in-game roleplay experience.
You can change your discord name to your ESO character name. Instead of using text.. use voice (Discord).. you can still use emotes and mementos in-game.