Reusable Parts and GLS

Urvoth · September 19

Necro sustain while using Grave Lord’s Sacrifice is significantly worse than when using blastbones, all dmg concerns aside. The reusable parts passive is a major part of Necro sustain and it’s virtually nonexistent for a damage rotation since GLS is only used every 17 or so seconds compared to a blastbones every 3 seconds. This discrepancy is filled with skull spam, which does not benefit from reusable parts while GLS is active. It would help even out the morphs options if skulls could have the reusable parts passive applied while GLS is active.

Urvoth · September 26

GLS still needs a lot of work in general, and this would help even out sustain between morph options. Adding a dot to LAs while GLS is active would also help with damage consistency and would help GLS more fit the "dot playstyle" option.

necro_the_crafter · September 26

Gravegrasp can become necros enabler. If it instead would be a single instanced AoE, that can be targeted like Elemental Ring for example, it would allow us to place a corpse precisly where we need it. Then, GLS interaction with the Skulls wouldnt be needed anymore, since it was a bandaid to GLS range corpse gen. And after GLS-Skulls tie is severed, it opens more ways and directions for GLS development.

Aldoss · September 26

Urvoth wrote: »

GLS still needs a lot of work in general, and this would help even out sustain between morph options. Adding a dot to LAs while GLS is active would also help with damage consistency and would help GLS more fit the "dot playstyle" option.

This is a really simple and well thought suggestion.

It gives a distinct play style between choosing to use the "burst" (it needs the stalking modifier that was stolen) of BB or would add a unique dot that interacts well with the necro class kit.

10/10 suggestion. Now where's my cup of morning hopium at...

MashmalloMan · September 26

While a good suggestion for the current design I personally don't want them to go down that road because it further cements that GLS needs to be paired with Flame Skull for it to be viable. It's completely defeating the original purpose of the new morph.

It should just reduce your base costs by x% while active and spawn corpses on its own, any damage dealt, no Flame Skulls required. If the passive corpse generation doesn't deal damage, then bump up the modifier from 15% back to 20% from the original design.

Alaztor91 · September 27

This was pointed out to ZOS when they changed the skill to have the Flame Skull bonus, but it was not taken into consideration. We recently had GLS changed to no longer require being in combat to cast so maybe in 2 years we might get some actual meaningful improvements to it.

Tbh after seeing the Undead Avatar in IA I would just rework GLS entirely and change it to a long duration buff that summons X Melee Skeletons. Each of these skeletons would do little damage like Skeletal Mage, would be summoned at the target location and would have a cleave attack that they use every Y seconds that also generates a Corpse when hitting a target. They would also be ''non-targetable/invulnerable'' like Skeletal Mage, follow pet commands and they would not gain enemy aggro for obvious reasons.

This would provide corpses over the duration of the skill and since they are melee the corpses would most of the time be near your target. Could also add stamina/magicka restore if there already is a corpse nearby when the skeletons use the cleave attack to provide some sustain to the skill.

This was thought for PvE scenarios since imo this would be a pretty awful skill for PvP lol.

MashmalloMan · September 27

Alaztor91 wrote: »

This was pointed out to ZOS when they changed the skill to have the Flame Skull bonus, but it was not taken into consideration. We recently had GLS changed to no longer require being in combat to cast so maybe in 2 years we might get some actual meaningful improvements to it.

Tbh after seeing the Undead Avatar in IA I would just rework GLS entirely and change it to a long duration buff that summons X Melee Skeletons. Each of these skeletons would do little damage like Skeletal Mage, would be summoned at the target location and would have a cleave attack that they use every Y seconds that also generates a Corpse when hitting a target. They would also be ''non-targetable/invulnerable'' like Skeletal Mage, follow pet commands and they would not gain enemy aggro for obvious reasons.

This would provide corpses over the duration of the skill and since they are melee the corpses would most of the time be near your target. Could also add stamina/magicka restore if there already is a corpse nearby when the skeletons use the cleave attack to provide some sustain to the skill.

This was thought for PvE scenarios since imo this would be a pretty awful skill for PvP lol.

That would be really cool, I think unfortunately the reality of the situation is that ZOS can't do it with the game engine because they have to account for potentially 100s of players casting the same abilities on screen, which means they need to be performant... especially because we're still supporting PS4/XBoxOne.

There is reason pretty much nothing in the game set or ability wise behaves like a swarm of AI you can summon if you think about it. IA is unique in that you're limited to 2 players at a time and the Atro is relatively rare, so they're probably able to get away with more wacky stuff like that.

Just look at how Necro was designed from the get go, there is an obvious reason it doesn't feel like other games. In almost any other RPG I can think of, you're incentivised to summon as much minions and corpses as possible. Like diablo is basically a swarm of 10-20 of these guys, people love that. Imagine that in ESO. Cyrodil would be crazy.

Idk man, maybe an ESO 2

Alaztor91 · September 27

MashmalloMan wrote: »

That would be really cool, I think unfortunately the reality of the situation is that ZOS can't do it with the game engine because they have to account for potentially 100s of players casting the same abilities on screen, which means they need to be performant... especially because we're still supporting PS4/XBoxOne.

There is reason pretty much nothing in the game set or ability wise behaves like a swarm of AI you can summon if you think about it. IA is unique in that you're limited to 2 players at a time and the Atro is relatively rare, so they're probably able to get away with more wacky stuff like that.

Just look at how Necro was designed from the get go, there is an obvious reason it doesn't feel like other games. In almost any other RPG I can think of, you're incentivised to summon as much minions and corpses as possible. Like diablo is basically a swarm of 10-20 of these guys, people love that. Imagine that in ESO. Cyrodil would be crazy.

Idk man, maybe an ESO 2

Yeah, I don't really expect hordes of minions like Diablo or the Skyrim Ritual Stone, but I think that they could manage 2 or 3 skeletons. Werewolf Pack Leader morph for example already gives you 2 summons that stay with you, so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. Too many corpses being on the ground would be an issue performance wise, but they could alleviate it by making them remain for like only 3s before despawning(BB corpse remains for 6s and Skeletal Mage/Spirit Mender one remains for 10s afaik)

For PvE they could also visually hide them(for other players) when there are too many people around if it becomes a problem, kinda like they do with Companions.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 27

Alaztor91 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

That would be really cool, I think unfortunately the reality of the situation is that ZOS can't do it with the game engine because they have to account for potentially 100s of players casting the same abilities on screen, which means they need to be performant... especially because we're still supporting PS4/XBoxOne.

There is reason pretty much nothing in the game set or ability wise behaves like a swarm of AI you can summon if you think about it. IA is unique in that you're limited to 2 players at a time and the Atro is relatively rare, so they're probably able to get away with more wacky stuff like that.

Just look at how Necro was designed from the get go, there is an obvious reason it doesn't feel like other games. In almost any other RPG I can think of, you're incentivised to summon as much minions and corpses as possible. Like diablo is basically a swarm of 10-20 of these guys, people love that. Imagine that in ESO. Cyrodil would be crazy.

Idk man, maybe an ESO 2

Yeah, I don't really expect hordes of minions like Diablo or the Skyrim Ritual Stone, but I think that they could manage 2 or 3 skeletons. Werewolf Pack Leader morph for example already gives you 2 summons that stay with you, so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. Too many corpses being on the ground would be an issue performance wise, but they could alleviate it by making them remain for like only 3s before despawning(BB corpse remains for 6s and Skeletal Mage/Spirit Mender one remains for 10s afaik)

For PvE they could also visually hide them(for other players) when there are too many people around if it becomes a problem, kinda like they do with Companions.

Not that it matters much, but Mender lasts for 12. You can just barely have enough time to create all 3 corpses for Blastbones Ult by using intensive mender every 4 seconds, and have a single global to pop the ult.

Urvoth · September 28

Alaztor91 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

That would be really cool, I think unfortunately the reality of the situation is that ZOS can't do it with the game engine because they have to account for potentially 100s of players casting the same abilities on screen, which means they need to be performant... especially because we're still supporting PS4/XBoxOne.

There is reason pretty much nothing in the game set or ability wise behaves like a swarm of AI you can summon if you think about it. IA is unique in that you're limited to 2 players at a time and the Atro is relatively rare, so they're probably able to get away with more wacky stuff like that.

Just look at how Necro was designed from the get go, there is an obvious reason it doesn't feel like other games. In almost any other RPG I can think of, you're incentivised to summon as much minions and corpses as possible. Like diablo is basically a swarm of 10-20 of these guys, people love that. Imagine that in ESO. Cyrodil would be crazy.

Idk man, maybe an ESO 2

Yeah, I don't really expect hordes of minions like Diablo or the Skyrim Ritual Stone, but I think that they could manage 2 or 3 skeletons. Werewolf Pack Leader morph for example already gives you 2 summons that stay with you, so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. Too many corpses being on the ground would be an issue performance wise, but they could alleviate it by making them remain for like only 3s before despawning(BB corpse remains for 6s and Skeletal Mage/Spirit Mender one remains for 10s afaik)

For PvE they could also visually hide them(for other players) when there are too many people around if it becomes a problem, kinda like they do with Companions.

Would be nice if we could get at least a single permanent pet that had some sort of useful interactions with the rest of our kit

MincMincMinc · September 28

I wish they played more heavily into the corpse system. Id rather have necro be "broken" if players used corpses properly. Reduce the amount of flat unique passives in the class and really build up what spawns and consumes corpses for effects.

Example: the third cast of scythe could summon corpses on enemies under 50% hp or do offbalance on players above 50% hp.

MashmalloMan · September 28

Urvoth wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

That would be really cool, I think unfortunately the reality of the situation is that ZOS can't do it with the game engine because they have to account for potentially 100s of players casting the same abilities on screen, which means they need to be performant... especially because we're still supporting PS4/XBoxOne.

There is reason pretty much nothing in the game set or ability wise behaves like a swarm of AI you can summon if you think about it. IA is unique in that you're limited to 2 players at a time and the Atro is relatively rare, so they're probably able to get away with more wacky stuff like that.

Just look at how Necro was designed from the get go, there is an obvious reason it doesn't feel like other games. In almost any other RPG I can think of, you're incentivised to summon as much minions and corpses as possible. Like diablo is basically a swarm of 10-20 of these guys, people love that. Imagine that in ESO. Cyrodil would be crazy.

Idk man, maybe an ESO 2

Yeah, I don't really expect hordes of minions like Diablo or the Skyrim Ritual Stone, but I think that they could manage 2 or 3 skeletons. Werewolf Pack Leader morph for example already gives you 2 summons that stay with you, so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. Too many corpses being on the ground would be an issue performance wise, but they could alleviate it by making them remain for like only 3s before despawning(BB corpse remains for 6s and Skeletal Mage/Spirit Mender one remains for 10s afaik)

For PvE they could also visually hide them(for other players) when there are too many people around if it becomes a problem, kinda like they do with Companions.

Would be nice if we could get at least a single permanent pet that had some sort of useful interactions with the rest of our kit

Knowing ZOS they would make it require 2 bars despite everyone making it clear we hate that.. almost like in 10 years they haven't learned their lesson.

> Looking at you Banner Bearer

I would love a semi permanent pet that you need to feed corpses to keep alive, similar to the mechanic werewolves have, that could justify it only needing 1 bar maybe. Also more ways to generate corpses so that sorta thing could even work, but Grave Grasp is kinda on track for that.

necro_the_crafter · September 28

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Knowing ZOS they would make it require 2 bars despite everyone making it clear we hate that.. almost like in 10 years they haven't learned their lesson.

> Looking at you Banner Bearer

I would love a semi permanent pet that you need to feed corpses to keep alive, similar to the mechanic werewolves have, that could justify it only needing 1 bar maybe. Also more ways to generate corpses so that sorta thing could even work, but Grave Grasp is kinda on track for that.

Yeah, imagine one of the morphs of colossus would summon a flesh atro pet for 20-ish seconds, and then you can reuse ulti again to pump corpses into him to extend its duration and some kind of buff to its damage, would aso make sense lorewise, sine flash atros are made from patches of flash from different creatures. Also would love see a stun or fear on atros spawn, something hilarious like atro falling down from the sky smashing the area with its belly, knocking back everyone in the area.

Urvoth · October 1

While most balance and skill design adjustments are far better off with a chisel approach compared to a sledgehammer, Necro really is the exception. It still needs drastic systematic reworks and the lack of attention to such an unpolished class is troubling. GLS feels like a first draft version of what it should be and losing Stalking affects a lot more than just the damage numbers.