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Maybe TOT decks should be offered for crowns.
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.Edited by Personofsecrets on September 18, 2024 9:47PMMy Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
WitchyKiki✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.Context is for kings -Captain Gabriel Lorca0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.
Sure, I posted it before but I don't mind posting it again for ease of reading.spartaxoxo wrote: »They are but being able to actually play a deck confers some big advantages.
1) A deck you own is a deck you'll naturally have more practice with
2) The deck you choose when you are player 1/2 has a pretty big impact on your odds of success. So, being able to select a deck actually conveys a pretty big statistical advantage. Many players don't know this and just pick the same thing every time that they like. But more competitive players know which decks favor player 1 (for example) a lot and choose accordingly. If you don't have the ability to select them yourself, you can't use it that way, and are only able to play with it when a) someone randomly decides to play it or b) someone choose it specifically to put you at a disadvantage.
3) some decks are good counterplay to other decks. An opponent running a strategy is not as likely to pick the deck that may interfere with their own odds of success. And if you can't either, you're at a disadvantage.
Edited by spartaxoxo on September 18, 2024 11:08PM0 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.
I though you were advocating for selling decks in the Crown with no strings attached. You pay your $5 - you get the deck.
Chapters and DLCs are how most not free to play games advance their content. They sell you gameplay and a POSSIBILITY to acquire a deck/lead/set. To actually GET that deck/lead/set you need to engage with said gameplay using you time/skills while, possibly, interacting with other players and competing with them or helping them along the way. Selling said deck/lead/set outright in the crown store removes not only the need to engage with the game but also the need to put efforts to actually get the desired item that helps with advancing in leaderboard content.
0 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.
I think that was already written in post #16.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.
Sure, I posted it before but I don't mind posting it again for ease of reading.spartaxoxo wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »I mean, it not even winning anything in this case but can set a precedent for the company to this next time if people are fine with more stuff they're charging for in addition to already rich monetisation.
In the case of decks, you would be winning something. Tales of Tribute has a ranked mode with leaderboards.
Aren't decks shuffled between both parties?
They are but being able to actually play a deck confers some big advantages.
1) A deck you own is a deck you'll naturally have more practice with
2) The deck you choose when you are player 1/2 has a pretty big impact on your odds of success. So, being able to select a deck actually conveys a pretty big statistical advantage. Many players don't know this and just pick the same thing every time that they like. But more competitive players know which decks favor player 1 (for example) a lot and choose accordingly. If you don't have the ability to select them yourself, you can't use it that way, and are only able to play with it when a) someone randomly decides to play it or b) someone choose it specifically to put you at a disadvantage.
3) some decks are good counterplay to other decks. An opponent running a strategy is not as likely to pick the deck that may interfere with their own odds of success. And if you can't either, you're at a disadvantage.
Point one isn't compelling at all. It's just convenient that someone get's to play with a hypothetical crown deck more than others. And those others who don't want to buy the deck can just find a friend to practice with. There, issue solved.
Point two isn't very compelling since all of the decks are better when going first. Also, you sort of undermine your own point by mentioning how most players aren't paying attention to small statistical advantages during deck selection. They just play what they like. Small statistical advantages can also be written off as convenience.
Point three is a little more compelling, but also entirely speculative because there is no telling what tools a crown deck could have. Maybe it doesn't have anything that is a counter. There is also a convenience factor here involved. The competitive aspect of the game mode is the leaderboard. Even if a good counter deck was made somehow, it would really just be a convenience to be able to use it for the hypothetical chance at ranking up ever so slightly faster.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277861 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?
I would because I love TOT.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't consider being more likely to win a game than if you didn't have it to be a matter of convenience.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 18, 2024 11:17PM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.
I though you were advocating for selling decks in the Crown with no strings attached. You pay your $5 - you get the deck.
Chapters and DLCs are how most not free to play games advance their content. They sell you gameplay and a POSSIBILITY to acquire a deck/lead/set. To actually GET that deck/lead/set you need to engage with said gameplay using you time/skills while, possibly, interacting with other players and competing with them or helping them along the way. Selling said deck/lead/set outright in the crown store removes not only the need to engage with the game but also the need to put efforts to actually get the desired item that helps with advancing in leaderboard content.
Isn't the purpose of purchasing a game piece to get some kind of utility (such as enaging with the game) with it?My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?
I would because I love TOT.
Ok. The question why would anyone choose it to play if it offers to advantages and cosmetic only. If someone finds a good combination with another deck, then it will be not a cosmetic one anymore.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I don't consider being more likely to win a game than if you didn't have it to be a matter of convenience.
Well, that just isn't how ESO works. Look at the subscription bonuses. Pay to win is completely enshrined in ESO and doesn't seem to be a problem.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?
I would because I love TOT.
Ok. The question why would anyone choose it to play if it offers to advantages and cosmetic only. If someone finds a good combination with another deck, then it will be not a cosmetic one anymore.
Maybe they just like the cards.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?
I would because I love TOT.
Ok. The question why would anyone choose it to play if it offers to advantages and cosmetic only. If someone finds a good combination with another deck, then it will be not a cosmetic one anymore.
Maybe they just like the cards.
I'm sorry, you lost me here. Like them for what? For collection purposes? You play competitively, would you just choose a deck that does nothing in a ranked match (just for pretty image and description)? If you want a collection, why not just ask for collectible decks not used for play, kind of like music boxes.2 -
WitchyKiki✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.
Sure, I posted it before but I don't mind posting it again for ease of reading.spartaxoxo wrote: »They are but being able to actually play a deck confers some big advantages.
1) A deck you own is a deck you'll naturally have more practice with
2) The deck you choose when you are player 1/2 has a pretty big impact on your odds of success. So, being able to select a deck actually conveys a pretty big statistical advantage. Many players don't know this and just pick the same thing every time that they like. But more competitive players know which decks favor player 1 (for example) a lot and choose accordingly. If you don't have the ability to select them yourself, you can't use it that way, and are only able to play with it when a) someone randomly decides to play it or b) someone choose it specifically to put you at a disadvantage.
3) some decks are good counterplay to other decks. An opponent running a strategy is not as likely to pick the deck that may interfere with their own odds of success. And if you can't either, you're at a disadvantage.
I haven't been reading all of the exchanges posted here, so thank you.
How does this reasoning still translate to P2W? This is just the play style that works for you. I personally pick the same two decks regardless of what my opponent does and I have the same win/lose ratio with them, it only changes the dynamic of the game. You are also operating under the assumption that these CS decks will have a counter or even be powerful enough to be picked over anything else. To give you some perspective, I've never picked Mora, yet I almost never lose to it.
Picking a deck you own and I don't just means I get to use it against you too, so I can't see how it translates to P2W.
Context is for kings -Captain Gabriel Lorca0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »That isn't necessarily true for a hypothetical deck that doesn't exist yet. Pure speculation.
Why would they introduce a deck that does not have any kind of advantage (be it as a counter for another deck, fast power gaining abilities or some entirely new concept)? Make it cosmetic so it could be "harmlessly" sold in the Crown Store?
So that they could avoid complaining.
And why would anyone buy such deck?
I would because I love TOT.
Ok. The question why would anyone choose it to play if it offers to advantages and cosmetic only. If someone finds a good combination with another deck, then it will be not a cosmetic one anymore.
Maybe they just like the cards.
I'm sorry, you lost me here. Like them for what? For collection purposes? You play competitively, would you just choose a deck that does nothing in a ranked match (just for pretty image and description)? If you want a collection, why not just ask for collectible decks not used for play, kind of like music boxes.
I play Infect in Legacy. I'm building Pox.
I played Apprentice Monarchs for years after their widely accepted competitive viability.
The answer to your first question is yes.
Regarding collecting. I do collect some cards. I probably had the largest premium collection in Elder Scrolls Legends. That said, I want to play with the cards. I don't typically buy furnishings as I don't really enjoy housing.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »WitchyKiki wrote: »Oof. You went and said this! lol
I have a *** job and put together what is probably a $30,000 Magic the Gathering deck over the last 6 to 7 years.
Especially for game pieces that don't cost that much, let's say a $10 to $20 Crown Store deck, people have to realize that people aren't paying to win. They are paying for their love of the game.
Imagine thinking that the natural progression of an MMO which always comes in the forms of DLC is 'pay to win'. These people have never played true P2W games.
Even still, a deck on the crown store is still NOT P2W. If the other player picks it, you can also use it... I still would hate to see TOT decks stuffed into the crown store, its not P2W but its micro-transactions that are being hyper monetized.
If you're paying for a significant competitive advantage in the cash shop it's P2W. Other people being decide how you use might be able to use a deck is not the same thing as being able to select it yourself, and there are significant competitive advantages to being able to select it yourself.
What is the advantage of being able to select a deck yourself? Just curious on your reasoning.
Sure, I posted it before but I don't mind posting it again for ease of reading.spartaxoxo wrote: »They are but being able to actually play a deck confers some big advantages.
1) A deck you own is a deck you'll naturally have more practice with
2) The deck you choose when you are player 1/2 has a pretty big impact on your odds of success. So, being able to select a deck actually conveys a pretty big statistical advantage. Many players don't know this and just pick the same thing every time that they like. But more competitive players know which decks favor player 1 (for example) a lot and choose accordingly. If you don't have the ability to select them yourself, you can't use it that way, and are only able to play with it when a) someone randomly decides to play it or b) someone choose it specifically to put you at a disadvantage.
3) some decks are good counterplay to other decks. An opponent running a strategy is not as likely to pick the deck that may interfere with their own odds of success. And if you can't either, you're at a disadvantage.
I haven't been reading all of the exchanges posted here, so thank you.
How does this reasoning still translate to P2W? This is just the play style that works for you. I personally pick the same two decks regardless of what my opponent does and I have the same win/lose ratio with them, it only changes the dynamic of the game. You are also operating under the assumption that these CS decks will have a counter or even be powerful enough to be picked over anything else. To give you some perspective, I've never picked Mora, yet I almost never lose to it.
Picking a deck you own and I don't just means I get to use it against you too, so I can't see how it translates to P2W.
While you choose not to utilize it, and that's totally fine, it's something I and many others do for a competitive advantage. It works quite well for me. And I don't have the issues with the game I see often posted here.
Also, if they start making money on selling decks in the crown store, they're obviously going to want to incentive you to buy them by ensuring they are more powerful than the stuff that you can get for free. Why would they sell decks that nobody cares to buy because they don't offer anything more than the stuff obtained through gameplay?
Edit: When I say many, I don't mean the majority. Majority of people don't do it. But I've met quite a few more competitive oriented players that doEdited by spartaxoxo on September 18, 2024 11:47PM0 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.
I though you were advocating for selling decks in the Crown with no strings attached. You pay your $5 - you get the deck.
Chapters and DLCs are how most not free to play games advance their content. They sell you gameplay and a POSSIBILITY to acquire a deck/lead/set. To actually GET that deck/lead/set you need to engage with said gameplay using you time/skills while, possibly, interacting with other players and competing with them or helping them along the way. Selling said deck/lead/set outright in the crown store removes not only the need to engage with the game but also the need to put efforts to actually get the desired item that helps with advancing in leaderboard content.
Isn't the purpose of purchasing a game piece to get some kind of utility (such as enaging with the game) with it?
The difference here IMHO is that you are proposing to sell this utility outright (only money involved). With a DLC/Chapter purchase they are selling a possibility to get this utility through gameplay (not only money involved, but also your time/skill to get it and engagement with other players). And that is a big difference for a leaderboard involving content. You want the utility - you work for it in game.
And yes, I would love to have bankers/merchants through gameplay. Alas, that is not going to happen.1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.
I though you were advocating for selling decks in the Crown with no strings attached. You pay your $5 - you get the deck.
Chapters and DLCs are how most not free to play games advance their content. They sell you gameplay and a POSSIBILITY to acquire a deck/lead/set. To actually GET that deck/lead/set you need to engage with said gameplay using you time/skills while, possibly, interacting with other players and competing with them or helping them along the way. Selling said deck/lead/set outright in the crown store removes not only the need to engage with the game but also the need to put efforts to actually get the desired item that helps with advancing in leaderboard content.
Isn't the purpose of purchasing a game piece to get some kind of utility (such as enaging with the game) with it?
The difference here IMHO is that you are proposing to sell this utility outright (only money involved). With a DLC/Chapter purchase they are selling a possibility to get this utility through gameplay (not only money involved, but also your time/skill to get it and engagement with other players). And that is a big difference for a leaderboard involving content. You want the utility - you work for it in game.
And yes, I would love to have bankers/merchants through gameplay. Alas, that is not going to happen.
I wrote that a quest and 5 leads can be involved. So nature will heal.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277861 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »ESO_player123 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »There is nothing illogical about exceptions. It's a focus on what the customer should expect as a priority by understanding how businesses operate. It would be far more illogical to demand everything be free or to refuse to acknowledge that some practices are more predatory than others. Not all businesses practices are predatory. And a business cannot function without income.
There is logic to "I want developers to focus on the gameplay aspect of the game because the emphasis is quality rather than individual items."
Subscription and DLC focus means that development makes it's money on providing quality gameplay first and foremost. Cash shop focused means that they focus on individual items and not as much on gameplay because it's not their money maker. That's why so many f2p games are less customer friendly than buy to play ones.
Nobody expects everything to be free. They just want game designer's main focus to be on making gameplay better because then we all win. Thus far, creating new games or expansions for existing games seems to be the monetization model that best accomplishes that.
This ^ If an advantage for winning something is not available for free in the game, and it can only be obtained from the store, that's the definition of PTW. People can be pedantic all they want about convenience things, but nothing right now is PTW in the game, and I hope it stays that way. As for items from DLCs and so on, that's new content, and of course it will be monetized. If you want to have a current and updated build you need access to them, but that doesn't mean you can't still 'win' with less updated stuff.
The Almalexia deck is pay to win.
It's not PTW, it's available to obtain it in the current version of the game. Same with mythic leads and so on. They can't add everything to the base game. It's like saying someone stopped playing the game 5 years ago and suddenly logging in and complaining that all the new things that were added are PTW. In every activity in the game, if you want to be competitive, you have to be updated (even with something regardless of itemization, like having a good amount of CP), but again, that doesn't mean you are not viable, only that you might not be competitive under specific parameters in a given scenario. Anyway, putting stuff exclusively in the store, with no way to obtain it in game, will mean only a small amount of people will be competitive, and nobody wants that kind of thing for ESO.
Enlightening. The designers should note that as long as a Crown deck is gated by a quest and 5 leads, then they can stave off shrill anti-pay to win troublemakers.
I though you were advocating for selling decks in the Crown with no strings attached. You pay your $5 - you get the deck.
Chapters and DLCs are how most not free to play games advance their content. They sell you gameplay and a POSSIBILITY to acquire a deck/lead/set. To actually GET that deck/lead/set you need to engage with said gameplay using you time/skills while, possibly, interacting with other players and competing with them or helping them along the way. Selling said deck/lead/set outright in the crown store removes not only the need to engage with the game but also the need to put efforts to actually get the desired item that helps with advancing in leaderboard content.
Isn't the purpose of purchasing a game piece to get some kind of utility (such as enaging with the game) with it?
The difference here IMHO is that you are proposing to sell this utility outright (only money involved). With a DLC/Chapter purchase they are selling a possibility to get this utility through gameplay (not only money involved, but also your time/skill to get it and engagement with other players). And that is a big difference for a leaderboard involving content. You want the utility - you work for it in game.
And yes, I would love to have bankers/merchants through gameplay. Alas, that is not going to happen.
I wrote that a quest and 5 leads can be involved. So nature will heal.
So, now we are also selling quests in the Crown store? That is going to do well with the quest enthusiasts.
Anyway, I feel that we are starting to walk in circles. As I said before, we have to agree to disagree on this matter.1 -
OldStygian✭✭✭✭My jerking knee tells me this leans too far into the P2W category.
If it was purely cosmetic, pretty card art variations for existing decks, then ok.1 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭KaosWarMonk wrote: »My jerking knee tells me this leans too far into the P2W category.
If it was purely cosmetic, pretty card art variations for existing decks, then ok.
Though I would never purchased them, I'm fine with card art variations.1