Bots, Gold farmers, and a cash store.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO · May 2014

When there is a monthly fee for a game, the last thing that game needs is a store that is pay2win (yes being able to buy gold is still considered pay to win). I don't care if the store has costumes, or a unicorn mount that farts rainbows, as long as it has no actual effect on the game besides appearance.

With that said, them putting gold on their own store would only change gold seller prices. I don't think most people understand that the people farming these bots aren't actually paying for this game. They generally use stolen credit cards, so it doesn't really cost them anything.

VileIntent · May 2014

an in game store only feeds the problem by making the developer part of the issue.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95846/how-to-end-gold-farming-in-a-mmo#latest

will remove the issue all together

Adramelach · May 2014

I don't believe a cash shop equals "pay to win" at all. That implies that if you do NOT pay cash, you cannot compete or "win" in the game, and that is simply not a given at all.

As I said before, at least in Star Trek Online, the very best gear is not purchasable through cash, you have to earn it through work and such. So the best you can do with cash only is "second best" which is perfectly fine for PvE but to really be elite in PvP, you simply have to put in the time to get the absolute best stuff available. All seems fine to me, really. I haven't noticed any issues or problems with currency or anything over there, and I've never seen a gold seller in chat, either.

Reenlister · May 2014

VileIntent wrote: »

an in game store only feeds the problem by making the developer part of the issue. (snip)

I never thought I would actually say this. But more and more I wonder how complacent they are? True, its not our business who is banned, or the punishment given out, but more and more it appears that despite what we are told of 'working on it' nothing much is really being done.
The same bots run in packs. The same gold seller spams, both in chat and in your in game mail.
Not to mention the times you see obviously duped items on the market, or even the admitted exploiters over and over.
I have to take a moment and wonder if they just see those listed as above as simply more income per sub, so why punish them?

KerinKor · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

Is it possible that one way to end the bots and gold sellers would be to open a in game cash store and undercut the gold sellers prices in a similar manner to how GW2 did?

There's still a flourishing RMT business in GW2, but due to GW2's harvesting mechanic being per-player RMTs activities are far less destructive to normal players.

starstruck · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

Gold sellers can never undercut Zeni as Zeni has not to farm the gold it sales.

Whatever price Zenimax sells their gold for, the gold seller sure can undercut by selling cheaper, unless Zenimax is giving gold away for free, or totally dirt cheap.

Gwarok · May 2014

I've said this (since Beta 3) before and I'll say it again, as others (more or less) have said also:

If Elder Scrolls Online EVER adds a cash shop, I WILL drop this game faster than I dropped Trion World's Rift and never look back.

concobar · May 2014

starstruck wrote: »

concobar wrote: »

Gold sellers can never undercut Zeni as Zeni has not to farm the gold it sales.

Whatever price Zenimax sells their gold for, the gold seller sure can undercut by selling cheaper, unless Zenimax is giving gold away for free, or totally dirt cheap.

point taken even if the maths seem fuzzy to me.

concobar · May 2014

Gwarok wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again, as others (more or less) have said also:

If Elder Scrolls Online adds a cash shop, I'll drop this game faster than I dropped Trion World's Rift and never look back.

Didnt help that Rifts was a horrible game though, right?

Adramelach · May 2014

I don't really see the world-killing problem with a gold store, if you just set it up right. If you can complete all the PvE content with in-game earned/crafted/dropped gear, and never *have* to purchase anything in order to "win" then I have no issues at all with a gold store, for those that want to trade money for time. If you're concerned about PvP, then have additional, elite PvP gear available for use in Cyrodiil only, that sells for AP points, which can't be purchased anyway. Then you stay "competitive" in PvP through hard work, and PvE stays balanced and nobody is put out, really. Seems you satisfy both goals, perhaps.

Most folks appear concerned over gold stores because they feel that players who can pay for gear can out-perform players who cannot in PvP. You counter that simply by making the top tier of PvP gear attainable via other means besides cash, it doesn't seem a big problem to solve, really.

Soloeus · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

I don't want buy gold, that is Pay2Win.

Then don't? I am not suggesting anyone should buy gold only that allowing players to buy gold legitimately from a in game store might end the horde of bots and gold sellers infesting the game currently.

"Then Don't?" on Slavery: Don't own one.

Fact is, having the presence of buyable gold is Pay2Win. Which is bad. If you want to play a game where you can buy gold, go find one. Leave that garbage out of ESO.

concobar · May 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

concobar wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

I don't want buy gold, that is Pay2Win.

Then don't? I am not suggesting anyone should buy gold only that allowing players to buy gold legitimately from a in game store might end the horde of bots and gold sellers infesting the game currently.

"Then Don't?" on Slavery: Don't own one.

Fact is, having the presence of buyable gold is Pay2Win. Which is bad. If you want to play a game where you can buy gold, go find one. Leave that garbage out of ESO.

Did you really just compare a online gold store to owning a human being? really?

I think you need to buy some perspective.

Gwarok · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

Gwarok wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again, as others (more or less) have said also:

If Elder Scrolls Online adds a cash shop, I'll drop this game faster than I dropped Trion World's Rift and never look back.

Didnt help that Rifts was a horrible game though, right?

I have to say Rift had it's 15 minutes of fame and was a really fun game to play (I launched that game also as a "founder") but once they decided that they were going to revolve the game around lockboxes, cash shop token "upgrades", and blowing smoke up it's gamers (especially the dedicated crafter's) keisters with their flat out blatant "no tricks, no traps" LIE, I was done.

Adramelach · May 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

concobar wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

I don't want buy gold, that is Pay2Win.

Then don't? I am not suggesting anyone should buy gold only that allowing players to buy gold legitimately from a in game store might end the horde of bots and gold sellers infesting the game currently.

"Then Don't?" on Slavery: Don't own one.

Fact is, having the presence of buyable gold is Pay2Win. Which is bad. If you want to play a game where you can buy gold, go find one. Leave that garbage out of ESO.

It's not a "fact" at all. Pay2Win implies that the game has been tweaked and tuned such that if you fail to purchase what you need to, you can't complete or "win" the objectives and there's a "soft cap" or even hard cap on how far you can go or what you can attain before you must start paying to continue on. There are alternative ways to do things.

If you can attain every PvE accomplishment and goal in a reasonable amount of time, using nothing but in-game dropped/crafted/earned gear, then it's not "pay2win" it's just 'pay to get it faster' and I don't think there's a problem with that.

PvP is another story, but again, all you have to do is make the top-tier equipment unattainable with (just) cash and you erase that potential imbalance.

AlliN · May 2014

Thing is, lazy lame people bought all the gold they needed already. Now the ones that are scared of chinesee farmers want a cash shop so they can be "1337" too for their's mum money.

Seriously, what happened with just playing the game?

And yes - gold/upgrade materials/game items in cash store = quit for me. It's like playing chess when a player can spend 5$ to upgrade pawns to bishops.

concobar · May 2014

Gwarok wrote: »

concobar wrote: »

Gwarok wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again, as others (more or less) have said also:

If Elder Scrolls Online adds a cash shop, I'll drop this game faster than I dropped Trion World's Rift and never look back.

Didnt help that Rifts was a horrible game though, right?

I have to say Rift had it's 15 minutes of fame and was a really fun game to play (I launched that game also as a "founder") but once they decided that they were going to revolve the game around lockboxes, cash shop token "upgrades", and blowing smoke up it's gamers keisters with their flat out blatant "no tricks, no traps" LIE, I was done.

Same here for the most part, the imbalances in PvP are what killed it for me and the crappy gear progression.

Hiply · May 2014

I came to play ESO, not Whales Online. No gold sales in-game and no cash shop, ever. Not in a subscription game I play.

Reenlister · May 2014

Hiply wrote: »

I came to play ESO, not Whales Online. No gold sales in-game and no cash shop, ever. Not in a subscription game I play.

Yes, and as far as upsetting those who would want it... oh well.
Bugs I am dealing with, spam, etc. Pay shop.. Bye.

Adramelach · May 2014

AlliN wrote: »

Thing is, lazy lame people bought all the gold they needed already. Now the ones that are scared of chinesee farmers want a cash shop so they can be "1337" too for their's mum money.

Seriously, what happened with just playing the game?

And yes - gold/upgrade materials/game items in cash store = quit for me. It's like playing chess when a player can spend 5$ to upgrade pawns to bishops.

Yes, and again, that's PvP... if you make top-tier PvP gear require AP to purchase, you remove that problem.

In PvE, cash should simply allow attaining the same stuff you would otherwise get through time, with money, quicker. It's just a trade-off. Since it's PvE, it should only be effecting your own gameplay, and not others. Yes, it might mean that players could be more effective on dungeon teams than others, more quickly, but ultimately, cash players shouldn't be able to attain any goal or item that others couldn't get over time and through work. I don't see the issue really, if it's done that way.

Soloeus · May 2014

1. Buying gold and using it to improve your character better than someone else who didn't is Pay2Win. I suppose this is above you.

2. Your logic of "Then Don't" is faulty and that is easy to demonstrate; and I did.

3. "Then Don't" also implies "Then Don't be forced to play against anyone who buys gold." and that is the option I want, so I can meet you halfway.

4. Before you call it a norm, just because gold sellers are a norm doesn't mean it needs to be accepted. Having already been identified, it needs elimination.

Reenlister · May 2014

Adramelach wrote: »

AlliN wrote: »

Thing is, lazy lame people bought all the gold they needed already. Now the ones that are scared of chinesee farmers want a cash shop so they can be "1337" too for their's mum money.

Seriously, what happened with just playing the game?

And yes - gold/upgrade materials/game items in cash store = quit for me. It's like playing chess when a player can spend 5$ to upgrade pawns to bishops.

Yes, and again, that's PvP... if you make top-tier PvP gear require AP to purchase, you remove that problem.

In PvE, cash should simply allow attaining the same stuff you would otherwise get through time, with money, quicker. It's just a trade-off. Since it's PvE, it should only be effecting your own gameplay, and not others. Yes, it might mean that players could be more effective on dungeon teams than others, more quickly, but ultimately, cash players shouldn't be able to attain any goal or item that others couldn't get over time and through work. I don't see the issue really, if it's done that way.

I can tell you the issue. I did up top a few lines.
It starts that way. Then its going to add.. such as bank space,, then small items.. next you know they slip in 'special now' items.
Its just simple fact that if they start making money on small things, then it becomes a never ending cycle of adding more.

vyal · May 2014

any time a cash shop is added to a game, it becomes the sole purpose of development efforts.

Also, GW2 was filled with bots, gold sellers, spammers, and HFT auction house calluding cartels.

The only 'global' anything I'd advise adding to ESO is global crafting work orders, player driven. So, instead of spamming WTB in zone chat, you simply post what you want, and once someone fills the order, you get the results via in-game mail.

Anything else will turn into a pre-1900's stock market filled with every bad monetary/business practice ever.

concobar · May 2014

Good ideas for the most part, this has been a very enlightening conversation.

Still not seeing the correlation between buy gold and humans but...

Adramelach · May 2014

Reenlister wrote: »

Adramelach wrote: »

AlliN wrote: »

Thing is, lazy lame people bought all the gold they needed already. Now the ones that are scared of chinesee farmers want a cash shop so they can be "1337" too for their's mum money.

Seriously, what happened with just playing the game?

And yes - gold/upgrade materials/game items in cash store = quit for me. It's like playing chess when a player can spend 5$ to upgrade pawns to bishops.

Yes, and again, that's PvP... if you make top-tier PvP gear require AP to purchase, you remove that problem.

In PvE, cash should simply allow attaining the same stuff you would otherwise get through time, with money, quicker. It's just a trade-off. Since it's PvE, it should only be effecting your own gameplay, and not others. Yes, it might mean that players could be more effective on dungeon teams than others, more quickly, but ultimately, cash players shouldn't be able to attain any goal or item that others couldn't get over time and through work. I don't see the issue really, if it's done that way.

I can tell you the issue. I did up top a few lines.
It starts that way. Then its going to add.. such as bank space,, then small items.. next you know they slip in 'special now' items.
Its just simple fact that if they start making money on small things, then it becomes a never ending cycle of adding more.

Well, ok, but take something like your example of bank space. So, if I can't or don't buy gold, say it takes me a week to earn the gold I need to pay for the upgrade. Otherwise, say I purchase the gold to buy it a week earlier. How does that impact your experience negatively? That isn't something I had to do to "win", right? It gave me an acceleration in time, perhaps, but it's not anything I couldn't have gotten just by waiting a bit. I don't see the problem with that.

I *do* see the problem with exclusive content that is ONLY available via cash, or creating that situation with "time-windowed" content, such that I "miss the boat" and fail to get the content if I don't happen to have the gold I need in my account at the time, and don't have time to earn it. Either of those would be BAD, I totally agree.

LadyDestiny · May 2014

Please no.........that is why I quit playing swtor and lotro.

concobar · May 2014

LadyDestiny wrote: »

Please no.........that is why I quit playing swtor and lotro.

I doubt that as someone who played both games. You quit because most of the people you played with quit or because certain aspects of game play annoyed you. The fact that people could by a tauntaun is not why you quit.

Huggernaut · May 2014

Cash shops are the flippin devil.

This is why we are playing a P2P game, to avoid crappy scamming cashshops.

You want to play a game with a cashshop, the go play F2P and leave us to our own device thanks.

P.s. Vanity items, such as costumes are incredibly important to a lot of players. While they don't have any impact on combat, that is only a small portion of the game for a lot of people.

MMOs are a social atmosphere and forcing people to buy outfits in a cashshop, rather than allowing them to earn said outfits in the game normally is still Pay2Win.

Sure, it's not taken to the extreme of allowing that character to level faster, or do more damage, but in 20+ years of being in online games, I have met more than my fair share of fashionistas that derive no greater pleasure than making their characters look the very best they possibly can in the game.

This is why cosmetic items sell so well in cashshops. Because people really care how their characters look.

Braumeisterlein · May 2014

Paying ingame/ with an ingame-shop just ruins the atmosphere of the game itself. It's like inserting another coin for better gameplay/inventory space/items and so on. I mean where is the incentive to improve if you can buy things easier?

concobar · May 2014

Braumeisterlein wrote: »

Paying ingame/ with an ingame-shop just ruins the atmosphere of the game itself. It's like inserting another coin for better gameplay/inventory space/items and so on. I mean where is the incentive to improve if you can buy things easier?

Thats a good point.

Adramelach · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

LadyDestiny wrote: »

Please no.........that is why I quit playing swtor and lotro.

I doubt that as someone who played both games. You quit because most of the people you played with quit or because certain aspects of game play annoyed you. The fact that people could by a tauntaun is not why you quit.

This is what I just can't get get my mind around - what exactly is the problem? Is a lot of this simple, petty jealousy? Like "well, if he can buy a horse a week before I earn it anyway, that sucks and I'm picking up my toys and leaving" with a pouty face?

I keep talking about PvP versus PvE because in the case of PvE, I just can't see what the problem is, if my own experience is perfectly fine with in-game content that I earn at my own pace, and I enjoy the leveling and have access to everything over time that any cash player could buy. If that's the case, then what objection can anyone make regarding another player purchasing content sooner than they could get it via earning it, except basic, simple jealousy?

Now, PvP is a completely different world, and there are very legitimate reasons to worry about cash players gaining an advantage over others as there's direct head-to-head competition. But again, if the PvP "best stuff" were available only through Alliance Points, and not cash, then those that worry about being uber-players who can "pwn" everyone else out there are satisfied, because the elite gear can't be purchased anyway. So, again, I'm not really sure what the problem is in that case.

It seems a lot of people are worried about it "just 'cause" and not because there are legitimate reasons here. They just say "cash store = I quit" but I really can't see why, if it's handled right.

The *only* legitimate reason I've seen so far to worry about it, is the case of exclusive content only available through cash, or "special offers" of items that are time-limited and "force" you to buy gold in order to get the stuff before the timer runs out, if you don't have the gold already through earning. If you remove those types of phenomena, the rest seems not a big deal.