Why does ESO favor magicka specs so much?

Urzigurumash · July 31

Looks like @divnyi @MEBengalsFan2001 and I had a discussion about this very subject in a post of mine from '22, shortly after Hybridization:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/608080/are-stamdk-stamcro-and-stamplar-obsolete-in-pvp

I seem to have expressed the problem in a succinct way, perhaps already said by someone in this thread:

"Another way to rephrase my post would be - For these 3 classes, is it possible to gain the same amount of power in PvP with 64 points in Stam as one could gain with 64 points in Mag?"

xylena_lazarow · July 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

is it possible to gain the same amount of power in PvP with 64 points in Stam as one could gain with 64 points in Mag

Other than MagSorc, yes, because you're using the same skills and can easily adapt your regens to the size of your pools. Bigger consequence of the hybrid meta would be the rise of 64 hp builds.

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybrid was supposed to create a new path for theory-crafting, not become the obvious option.

We all did warn them that hybridization would basically cut the diversity of build archetypes in half. We're stuck with it this way until they add more super strong max pool payoffs with unique mechanics like Hardened Ward.

divnyi · July 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

We all did warn them that hybridization would basically cut the diversity of build archetypes in half. We're stuck with it this way until they add more super strong max pool payoffs with unique mechanics like Hardened Ward.

I really wish they did penalize the small pools instead.

Max pool stacking is very narrow build.
64 in hp is a more generic approach for everything that isn't pool stacking.

There should be a noticeable difference between 15k stam, 20k stam, 25k stam.
Right now you can drop 5k of stats and you will hardly notice that.

Bushido2513 · July 31

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You cannot play a pure stam build anymore... Why are the majority of class skills mag based? I don't get it lol

The mag leaning hybrid meta we have now is much closer to the game's original design. The mag/stam split was artificially forced in order to fit the CP system when that launched, shockingly they never got around to polishing the stam specs, and now the green or blue color doesn't even make a difference. My recent builds for melee DK, NB, and Warden all play like stam melee with Vigor and med armor dodge spam, but probably spend more mag and use more mag skills.

Which makes the game pretty boring. Hybrid was supposed to create a new path for theory-crafting, not become the obvious option. They should have done hybrid like how they did scribing - optional and fun for new builds, but not too strong that it becomes mandatory to slot scribe abilities over original ones.

Tbh scribing IS too good and borderline mandatory if you want to have a bleeding edge in PvP.
It packs some hard-to-obtain buffs into skills that also do something else.

Haven't tried scribing and probably won't just because I don't want to pay for it or actually do any content to get it lol. Thankfully though I haven't felt at all like I'm missing anything and other than seeing people vault backwards or the occasional unknown skill on death recap don't really notice scribing.

Accidentally or on purpose find this update doesn't feel like a must have.

Urzigurumash · July 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

is it possible to gain the same amount of power in PvP with 64 points in Stam as one could gain with 64 points in Mag

Other than MagSorc, yes, because you're using the same skills and can easily adapt your regens to the size of your pools. Bigger consequence of the hybrid meta would be the rise of 64 hp builds.

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybrid was supposed to create a new path for theory-crafting, not become the obvious option.

We all did warn them that hybridization would basically cut the diversity of build archetypes in half. We're stuck with it this way until they add more super strong max pool payoffs with unique mechanics like Hardened Ward.

I think my point back in 22 with that is ignore 64 HP. If you put a 64 mag vs 64 stam, any and all skills and foods available, which would win? Over the course of say 10 duels, 10 BGs, 10 OW 2 v 2s. You wouldn't be confident betting on one or the other for each class besides Sorc? It's purely hypothetical / dialectical.

xylena_lazarow · July 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you put a 64 mag vs 64 stam, any and all skills and foods available, which would win

Except for MagSorc, literally doesn't matter, comes down to skill like anything else.

Urzigurumash · July 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you put a 64 mag vs 64 stam, any and all skills and foods available, which would win

Except for MagSorc, literally doesn't matter, comes down to skill like anything else.

Remove that variable, equal player skill. You're saying you would be as comfortable flipping a coin for your bet as choosing one. I would go all Mag, except Warden.

xylena_lazarow · July 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You're saying you would be as comfortable flipping a coin for your bet as choosing one. I would go all Mag, except Warden.

I would. I've run MagDK playstyle with 64 stam, I've run StamDen playstyle with 64 mag, how you design your resource recovery is massively more important than choosing 64 mag or stam.

Urzigurumash · July 31

Right. OK let me rephrase.

64 HP builds on each class. Neither Atro nor Serpent Mundus.

Red Frothgar or Tripe Pocket?

Urzigurumash · July 31

PS. Nice to see you acknowledge MagDK with 64 Stam. As a retired old time sDK it was disturbing to hear people talk about their "S+ sDK" builds and they were always all about FoO and Whip..

xylena_lazarow · July 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Red Frothgar or Tripe Pocket?

I'm currently running the stam hot pockets on a mag leaning hybrid DK, your move

Urzigurumash · July 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Red Frothgar or Tripe Pocket?

I'm currently running the stam hot pockets on a mag leaning hybrid DK, your move

So.. Frost Staff backbar, am I right? Would you slot Frothgar instead with an SnB backbar?

I would run those two things together like that. Which if I'm right about your Frost Staff seems to indicate Hybridization has worked out well...

For Mono-Spec DK. It's the most successfully and truly Hybridized. Back in the day I used to argue we were actually inherently hybrid and that's why sDK was ranked F Tier year after year, people went too far "Stam" with it. (But still we were always "D Swing Dependent").

But that's DK. So I would say in reference to my '22 post, yes sDK is irrelevant to the meta. But so is mDK. Which most of the respondents in that thread seemed to say.

So we've established Hybridization has worked to create a truly hybrid Mono-Class on DK. After all, despite the absence of D Swing on meta DK, it's always Noxious over Engulfing, and usually Take Flight over Ferocious Leap.

We've also established that true MagSorc outperforms true StamSorc and Resource Ambiguous Sorc, which we all assume is the general point of Static's post.

Where we at with the other 4 classes?

FriedEggSandwich · July 31

I've been out of the game for a while, and haven't given this much thought. But personally I don't much like that each class is slowly being split down the middle with skill morphs. The result is less skill choice if you decide not to hybrid.

I feel like if each class is to have a stamina and magicka variant, plus a hybrid option, then we need more class skills, some inherently magicka, with only magicka morphs, and the same for stam. Maybe each class could get a 4th class skill line, or maybe each skill line could just get some more skills. Maybe even a 3rd morph option, but I think more base skills would be better.

As well as giving players more choice, I think it would also give the devs more creative freedom to mess with the classes. It might even be easier to balance. Right now I find it hard to see how they can make much change without stepping on a lot of toes.

xylena_lazarow · July 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Where we at with the other 4 classes?

Same place. Arc has flex scaling and was designed with hybridization in mind, Plar skills all do the same thing, Cro is incoherent no matter what you pick. You can definitely argue that NB should stack mag since it has the 8% max pool buff, but even just Power Extraction + Vigor + roll dodge spam = enough stam consumption to make good use of a higher stam pool in the edge case of certain racial passives combined with certain set bonuses.

I often see that when people say mag they mean ranged caster, and when people say stam they mean melee fighter. In this hybrid meta, playstyles are generally more distinctly defined by range versus melee (especially Plar).

Urzigurumash · July 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Where we at with the other 4 classes?

Same place. Arc has flex scaling and was designed with hybridization in mind, Plar skills all do the same thing, Cro is incoherent no matter what you pick. You can definitely argue that NB should stack mag since it has the 8% max pool buff, but even just Power Extraction + Vigor + roll dodge spam = enough stam consumption to make good use of a higher stam pool in the edge case of certain racial passives combined with certain set bonuses.

I often see that when people say mag they mean ranged caster, and when people say stam they mean melee fighter. In this hybrid meta, playstyles are generally more distinctly defined by range versus melee (especially Plar).

Yeah but not Plar's most powerful skill, Radiant, and not the Gapcloser either, so that's two votes for Mag, one vote each for either ranged or melee.

Build your best Ranged Plar. Is it Asylum Staff? I hope so, that's what I'm doing right now on Plar. Dark Flare's not half bad either, no Stam morph.

I'd vote for Plar being the second most "Mag is best" after Sorc but I'm not tremendously experienced on the class.

Urzigurumash · July 31

But for sure what you say about Range vs Melee is accurate, that was my first point in this thread I think.

Maybe it is not so much that Mag is favored, but Destro outperforms Bow. (And in Melee Metas 2h/dw outperforms... or rather engenders... all of the "we need a melee mag weapon" posts)