Are StamDK, StamCro, and StamPlar obsolete in PvP?

Urzigurumash

Is there any real competitive reason to play one of these 3 classes instead of their Mag counterpart, assuming one had equal ability to play any class?

bluehomeos

Even stamsorc, there are just bow stam build. I really miss badass 2h or dual wield build X<

Cadbury

I wasn't aware magcro is considered superior to stamcro. I've heard both ingame and around the web (coughYouTubecough) how stamcro is god tier for PVP.

xDeusEJRx

bluehomeos wrote: »

Even stamsorc, there are just bow stam build. I really miss badass 2h or dual wield build X<

Huh? I see more dual wield and two handed stam sorcs than bow builds, at least on console. Don't let the meta hopper players tell you otherwise, there's tons of stam sorc builds running around.

I'm not a very good stam sorc but here's some 2h action on my sorc, also I'm still in ascending tide patch on console

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8u2o3u7ACU

Hexquisite

[snip]
StamDK is strong, Some of them have corrosive up near 100%.
Everyone who thought they were getting nerfed this patch was wrong.
Stamcro has been better than magcro for a long time.
Stamplar is amazing as well if you know how to build it and what mag skills to use. Stamplar really benefitted for the magic and stam changes as far as how weapon and spell damage work with which skills.

[edited for baiting]

divnyi

Stam- Mag- prefixes are outdated. Most builds are hybrid today.

xDeusEJRx

divnyi wrote: »

Stam- Mag- prefixes are outdated. Most builds are hybrid today.

Most still lean toward one or the other though, not a lot build fully hybrid. Like even before hybridization most stamina classes were all semi-hybrid to utilize mag buffs but we didn't consider those "hybrid" but stamina builds. Every build will still lean on one side or the other because max pools still exist. Like most mag DK's are still gonna play as a mag dk whether or not they use stam morphs, same with magplars, magcros, etc.
There's very few actually "hybrid" builds that don't utilize pretty much the same skill layout prior except for 1 or 2 abilities like radiating regen/burst heals

divnyi

@xDeusEJRx I roll food that gives both regens, as well as 64 in HP on most characters - hybrid meta is not relying on bar sizes and rely on bars being regenerated as fast as you use them. Which practically only makes armour choice relevant to the extent, but even there, only thing that is stam/mag related is cost reduction and regens, and you can offset regens manually and find the right balance so you can comfortably spam all you need.

Urzigurumash

@divnyi Another way to rephrase my post would be - For these 3 classes, is it possible to gain the same amount of power in PvP with 64 points in Stam as one could gain with 64 points in Mag? Or, is it possible to gain the same amount of power by running Takeaway Broth as it is by running Clockwork Citrus?

Of course Bear Haunch and Tri-Foods have always been good on a number of classes, tri-glyphs are preferable on most builds to mono-glyphs, etc., but without deliberate investment otherwise into both Max Stam and Max Mag, I wouldn't call a build a Hybrid.

I do not think putting 64 points in HP with perfectly equal pools of Max Stam and Max Mag is very common on any class, or at least, I am not sure it is so common that we should say Mag and Stam Sub-Classes no longer exist?

divnyi

@Urzigurumash most strong builds min-max toughness, sustain and burst. To achieve that, you need to identify which stats scale better and give better return of investment, and which ones scale worse.

Pools scale badly. Unless you want to build shield-stacking mage, going WD/SD is more preferable way to stack damage and healing.

How effective is health stacking as toughness boost? Very. Difference between 25k HP and 32k HP is "got oneshotted" and "got damaged but escaped & outhealed". Can you get other sources of toughness that would be comparable to HP stacking? Well ye, but they aren't as reliable. Armor is penetrated, shields have downtime, blocking costs resources and isn't always up. You want at least 28k, minimum.

How much pools is the meta? Generally it goes "as little as you are comfortable with". If you are not ok with 16k stam pool because you often use a lot of stam in a short frame of time, you put more. Rarely it's a question of damage or healing. It is sad, but it is a fact.

Urzigurumash

@divnyi Sure that all sounds right to me, so your answer is that not only are these 3 Sub-Classes obsolete, but the other 9 as well?

At the highest levels of PvP, competitive players won't care at all about running Orc+Clockwork or Altmer+Takeaway, it's all just whatever?

Or, at the highest levels of PvP, competitive players would only play Dunmer, Argonian, or Khajiit with Sugar Skulls or Bear Haunch, anything else is obsolete, or at least suboptimal? I.e., it is not competitive to care whatsoever about your Max Stats?

You may be right but I think the vast majority of PvPers are still clinging to some consideration as to which Resource would be highest, but, if you are right, we should stop any talk about Mag this or Stam that, and just talk about Deep Fissure versus Sub Assault, etc?

Redguards_Revenge

I still play stamplar...but as you saw in my video...(.RIP PVP 2014-2022) I don't know how you going to get up in their faces to do anything. When you do, they still dealing out heavy hits. I tried shield ult, but when they are getting ulti with oakensoul faster than I can get the ult up with shalk, Daedric and bloodspawn...well...there's nothing I can do. Also, most of my skills are magic...

Urzigurumash

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Also, most of my skills are magic...

Yes, even if it is true that Max Stat is mostly irrelevant, put together your best DK / Necro / Templar - do most of the skills cost Mag or Stam? Specifically - do the skills which deal most of your damage cost Mag or Stam?

bluehomeos

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

bluehomeos wrote: »

Even stamsorc, there are just bow stam build. I really miss badass 2h or dual wield build X<

Huh? I see more dual wield and two handed stam sorcs than bow builds, at least on console. Don't let the meta hopper players tell you otherwise, there's tons of stam sorc builds running around.

I'm not a very good stam sorc but here's some 2h action on my sorc, also I'm still in ascending tide patch on console

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8u2o3u7ACU

of course i know that! 2h stamsorc is my main since 2020 X> i just grumbled these days...

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

Stam- Mag- prefixes are outdated. Most builds are hybrid today.

My Necro is using the magicka morphs of blastbones, avid boneyard, and Frozen Colossus, combined with the stamina morph of scythe, DW spin2win, 2H for Forward Momentum, and Razor Caltrops. Based on resource consumption I put my attribute points in stamina and prioritize sets with stamina or health instead of magicka, but I keep using spell damage because that is just what my jewelry was enchanted with.

Does that make me a magcro or a stamcro?

OBJnoob

katorga wrote: »

My Necro is using the magicka morphs of blastbones, avid boneyard, and Frozen Colossus, combined with the stamina morph of scythe, DW spin2win, 2H for Forward Momentum, and Razor Caltrops. Based on resource consumption I put my attribute points in stamina and prioritize sets with stamina or health instead of magicka,but I keep using spell damage because that is just what my jewelry was enchanted with.

Does that make me a magcro or a stamcro?

Makes you a stamcro in my opinion because of the highlighted portion. At least I hope I highlighted it… tablets suck for this nuff said…

But I see what you’re saying and yes the line is blurred… very blurred in your case. But ultimately you’ll always have one or two more skills of one type than another. Or even if it is exactly even… maybe you don’t ideally want it to be, because it’s most certainly easier to build for one max stat than another. At least if you’re interested in min maxing, because I realize max stam might not be as important as weapon damage but it does contribute.

Your gameplay experience will ultimately decide. Which resource pool shrinks faster and needs to come back? Build for it.

OBJnoob

“Easier to build for only one max stat than to build for both” is what I meant to say

Urzigurumash

katorga wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Stam- Mag- prefixes are outdated. Most builds are hybrid today.

My Necro is using the magicka morphs of blastbones, avid boneyard, and Frozen Colossus, combined with the stamina morph of scythe, DW spin2win, 2H for Forward Momentum, and Razor Caltrops. Based on resource consumption I put my attribute points in stamina and prioritize sets with stamina or health instead of magicka, but I keep using spell damage because that is just what my jewelry was enchanted with.

Does that make me a magcro or a stamcro?

I too would say StamCro, even before Hybridization Whirling Blades + Avid Boneyard was a viable Group DD on account of the strength of Harmony. Yes slotting Lightning Impulse was a more min-maxed option, but in a smaller, not fully optimized group StamCro was a nice option to bring the Bombard, Turn Evil, etc. It's definitely true that StamCro isn't quite the same as StamPlar and StamDK here, since Graverobber is the only Class Damage skill which doesn't have a Stam morph.

I don't know much about the history of StamPlar, but that Sub-Class aside, I think it's clear StamDK has been negatively affected by Hybridization more than any other Stam Sub-Class, in that, really everything that made the class unique is now more effectively utilized by MagDK. Sure Venomous Claw is excepted from that but with burst as high as it is this skill isn't as relevant as in prior years. Yes, StamDK has gained power, that's true, but perhaps lost relevance. They're not the same thing. Of course, as I've implied many times on this forum, the nerf to HP Regen may as well have been a 13% Damage Buff to MagDK. This is an external, systemic imbalance, the solution is likely also external and systemic.

@Hexquisite as you can see my question was genuine, not a rhetorical petition for buffs to the sub-class. There's many different ways to phrase or view the question, another way to say it is: Does this Sub-Class bring anything to the table anymore, now that the opposite Sub-Class has access to everything that once made them unique?

It was an obvious potential consequence of Hybridization, with many potential implications or solutions. I know it was discussed before but I thought it was worth discussing again with a few months of experience in PvP.

If we take @divnyi 's view that this Sub-Class idea is outdated anyhow, which is probably the correct read, I guess we can just look at particular Stam Morphs or Stam Weapon Skills, and whether they are relevant compared to Mag Morphs or Mag Weapon Skills.

Theignson

Ive been trying one bar builds on many of my toons with Brokensoul, just for fun.

The Mag DK is strong-- high corrosive uptime, and use FoB and BE to prime up molten whip. Use vigor and Coag.

But that is 4 magicka abilities. I have had a hard time figuring how I could sustain that on my Stam DK (except by converting him to a Mag DK...) without weakening it considerably (eg Atronarch mundus, MR glyphs)

In general in the last 12 months Ive felt my Stam DK, my original character in Pvp, is somewhat irrelevant compared to my Mag DK

katorga

OBJnoob wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

My Necro is using the magicka morphs of blastbones, avid boneyard, and Frozen Colossus, combined with the stamina morph of scythe, DW spin2win, 2H for Forward Momentum, and Razor Caltrops. Based on resource consumption I put my attribute points in stamina and prioritize sets with stamina or health instead of magicka,but I keep using spell damage because that is just what my jewelry was enchanted with.

Does that make me a magcro or a stamcro?

Makes you a stamcro in my opinion because of the highlighted portion. At least I hope I highlighted it… tablets suck for this nuff said…

But I see what you’re saying and yes the line is blurred… very blurred in your case. But ultimately you’ll always have one or two more skills of one type than another. Or even if it is exactly even… maybe you don’t ideally want it to be, because it’s most certainly easier to build for one max stat than another. At least if you’re interested in min maxing, because I realize max stam might not be as important as weapon damage but it does contribute.

Your gameplay experience will ultimately decide. Which resource pool shrinks faster and needs to come back? Build for it.

Basically my resource allocations are defined by the rate of consumption based on the mix of skills in use. That is the only consideration. Since sprint, dodge and sometimes block are stamina, for me stamina is always better. Even resources on sets are secondary, my primary stat is either weapon or spell damage. And that can be either, it doesn't matter.

My Sorc is even more jacked up now. Playing the common proc build in use now, most of my skills cost magicka, and I'm using a firestaff/Resto on a "stam sorc". Bizarro world.

WoppaBoem

What you say does not exist anymore. Make your best build for any class stop thinking about stam and mag.

MEBengalsFan2001

WoppaBoem wrote: »

What you say does not exist anymore. Make your best build for any class stop thinking about stam and mag.

You have to consider the resource based on what skills you plan on using. For instance I run a mag build that does use 2 stamina abilities. If I didn't have around 22k stamina I would have to consider adding some stamina into my build either from enchantments or attribute points.

CameraBeardThePirate

Cadbury wrote: »

I wasn't aware magcro is considered superior to stamcro. I've heard both ingame and around the web (coughYouTubecough) how stamcro is god tier for PVP.

With the exception of Scythe, nearly all of the mag morphs are much more powerful than their stam counterparts. Mag blastbones hits much harder than stam blastbones, and with how high healing is the defile on stam blastbones is practically useless.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Also, most of my skills are magic...

Yes, even if it is true that Max Stat is mostly irrelevant, put together your best DK / Necro / Templar - do most of the skills cost Mag or Stam? Specifically - do the skills which deal most of your damage cost Mag or Stam?

It dosent matter, with the new system it will take the higher damage stat and higher pool to determin healing and damage. on my magica gankblade i have dual wield and its damage is based off my spellpower and max magica. that s hybrid. im focused max magica with just enough stam to get by and use the execute. If your doing damage or healing with the opposite stat that is your max its hybrid, before you could not do that. aside from rare ones that scale off health.