Honestly, I'd rather not have a participation award. One side won, one side lost. I've been on both sides more than I'd care to count, and I see no problem with having a winner and loser.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You get plenty of AP from killing enemies and healing allies.

You get rewards for actually participating.

If your group is sufficiently outclassed either in numbers or skill, and struggles to get kills, you get nothing. For me, that would be the sign to go somewhere else.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

No, you don’t. Access to chests are a reward for clearing the previous boss(es). Loot from minor bosses are the reward for, well, killing that minor boss. If you fail/wipe on a boss, you get nothing for your effort on that pull.

Ph1p wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

No, you don’t. Access to chests are a reward for clearing the previous boss(es). Loot from minor bosses are the reward for, well, killing that minor boss. If you fail/wipe on a boss, you get nothing for your effort on that pull.

Ph1p wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

No, you don’t. Access to chests are a reward for clearing the previous boss(es). Loot from minor bosses are the reward for, well, killing that minor boss. If you fail/wipe on a boss, you get nothing for your effort on that pull.

The difference being that you have full control on your failure in PvE. You decide if you fail by simply not continuing your attempts to kill the boss or mini boss. In PvP in many situations it is out of your control. You can only defend a keep IF an enemy faction decides to attack it. And while in principle you could always decide to attack the same keep over and over again it is required that this keep is in enemy hands in the first place. Then to have a decent chance for success you have to bring numbers that at least match or even exceed the numbers of the enemy faction the latter also being completely out of your control.

I don't see what would be bad about giving the losing alliance some pity points as recognition for the effort put into the defence. I cited 10% of the points that would have been gained in case of a success. For a keep that would bring 7000 AP this would equate to 700 AP. Is negligible and still low enough to motivate players to go for a success but it is a recognition of the effort.

You have a valid point. That's why I say the guaranteed price has to be very low. I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low as to make up for the remaining 90% by pvdoor as you say a player would have to find 9 other activities to which he has to port/ride to. Considering how long a battle lasts the chances of a point/minute is much higher with trying to get the 100% in one battle fought out than catching one tick at 9 different places that require to have 9 active activities at keeps etc. My guess is that it will take much much longer to fill up for the lost points. Repairing walls/doors could proove much more efficient in that regard. But of course nobody knows to which lengths players go so in case it evolves as you suggest I would be fine with a cooldown on pity points. You only get them once every 10min or so for a failed activity.

OsUfi wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low

If you're not making at least 10% AP during the battle of a keep battle tick, you're weren't participating.

That is not the point. I tried to explain the motivation for my suggestion twice and I do it now a third time.

It is NOT to boost AP numbers.

It is about RECOGNITION of effort put into it.

Considering that: Killing players and getting AP for it is a side effect available anyway irrespective of success or failure. This cannot be considered as recognition of effort.

A lot of effort is being there and distracting and dispersing enemy players even if you don't hit an enemy player. Putting up camps, sieges etc. that distract enemy fire and provides support for group.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low

If you're not making at least 10% AP during the battle of a keep battle tick, you're weren't participating.

That is not the point. I tried to explain the motivation for my suggestion twice and I do it now a third time.

It is NOT to boost AP numbers.

It is about RECOGNITION of effort put into it.

Considering that: Killing players and getting AP for it is a side effect available anyway irrespective of success or failure. This cannot be considered as recognition of effort.

A lot of effort is being there and distracting and dispersing enemy players even if you don't hit an enemy player. Putting up camps, sieges etc. that distract enemy fire and provides support for group.

First, what are Alliance Points? They are two things, currency and how your alliance war rank is calculated. Your alliance war rank is based upon alliance points accumulated which are based upon your contributions to your alliance; kills, captures, completion of objectives, and quests; and sometimes log-in rewards.

Cyrodiil isn't your normal PvP, it's an AvA war, your alliance points are recognition for your works towards your alliance and their goals in Cyrodiil, your generals and overlords don't care about your "efforts" they care about the results, they don't ask HOW you got Ghartok back to the temple, just that it got back to the temple. They don't ask HOW you killed those 150 enemies, just that you did it. Also, Kills ARE considered recognition and have been in war for nearly all of recorded history.
Example from WW2
Scroll runners don't get AP for sprinting across the entirety of Cyrodiil, they get the AP for completing the objective only if they have the quest, they don't get recognition, so why should a losing effort get recognition? This is a war and war is heck.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

*sigh*

You get rewards at every stage during your travel through the arena even if the final reward has the highest value. Just stop bringing this up again and again if it just does not hit the nail please.

OsUfi wrote: »

I mean, to add to the point, if you partake in the battle and lose you are still rewarded with AP throughout the battle. Even just healing can bring in a significant amount of AP.

So are the other side. This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it.

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Framing the argument as a consolation prize is in my opinion a mischatacterisation of many arguments. This isn't about a pat on the back and a thumbs up. From my perspectives it's simply just removing economic dissinsentives especially in regards to being less punitive to players in a population imbalance situation a.k.a. 18 out of the 24 hours in a day.
In a situation where you're defending a keep outnumbered 5 to 1 against a blob with high health and high healing (This is not in reference to ballgroups) there is not really any meaningful AP generation for the outnumbered but if you wanted to fully participate in the alliance war and are spending AP to fund the camps, the siege, the repairing, potentially potions etc... you're easily getting through thousands of AP yourself.
At current if the economics of PvP are important / a limitation for you, you're better off leaving cyrodiil.
Putting in a lot of effort with stacking dissadvantages and then reflecting on how there's pretty much 0 benefit in even bothering is not good for Cyrodiils health. Of course most of us PvP for PvPs sake but that doesn't mean it should be punished.
The game had low pop bonuses to try and tackle this but it rarely works at all and hasn't for years. It's much easier just to provide AP to all participants. It's not that every situation should be a net positive for alliance points, but taking off the high costs might also encourage more people to stick around a bit longer in uneven pop situations.
I'm not even talking about adding insentives which cyrodiil definitely could use more of. Just simply pointing out that this can be discouraging to PvPing in cyrodiil.
I know it wouldnt be anywhere near a solution to pop imbalances but it might help somewhat in preventing that sudden night exodus which does in part exist because of the "No point in staying" mentality / reality.

EdjeSwift wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Framing the argument as a consolation prize is in my opinion a mischatacterisation of many arguments. This isn't about a pat on the back and a thumbs up. From my perspectives it's simply just removing economic dissinsentives especially in regards to being less punitive to players in a population imbalance situation a.k.a. 18 out of the 24 hours in a day.
In a situation where you're defending a keep outnumbered 5 to 1 against a blob with high health and high healing (This is not in reference to ballgroups) there is not really any meaningful AP generation for the outnumbered but if you wanted to fully participate in the alliance war and are spending AP to fund the camps, the siege, the repairing, potentially potions etc... you're easily getting through thousands of AP yourself.
At current if the economics of PvP are important / a limitation for you, you're better off leaving cyrodiil.
Putting in a lot of effort with stacking dissadvantages and then reflecting on how there's pretty much 0 benefit in even bothering is not good for Cyrodiils health. Of course most of us PvP for PvPs sake but that doesn't mean it should be punished.
The game had low pop bonuses to try and tackle this but it rarely works at all and hasn't for years. It's much easier just to provide AP to all participants. It's not that every situation should be a net positive for alliance points, but taking off the high costs might also encourage more people to stick around a bit longer in uneven pop situations.
I'm not even talking about adding insentives which cyrodiil definitely could use more of. Just simply pointing out that this can be discouraging to PvPing in cyrodiil.
I know it wouldnt be anywhere near a solution to pop imbalances but it might help somewhat in preventing that sudden night exodus which does in part exist because of the "No point in staying" mentality / reality.

There is no mischaracterization being done here. The OP has LITERALLY called this solution pity points and a solace prize, the poster is merely calling this out.

Fair enough. I had forgot the original post and suppose my argument is against the OP's framing of the argument. The argument put forward by OP is poor but there are good reasons for distributing AP across the board.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

*sigh*

You get rewards at every stage during your travel through the arena even if the final reward has the highest value. Just stop bringing this up again and again if it just does not hit the nail please.

No, you don't. You don't get a MAELSTROM WEAPON from losing. Just like you don't get a tick from defense. These are the rewards you get from COMPLETING your objective.

You successfully defend, Defense Tick.
You successfully complete Veteran Dungeon, Monster Helm.
You successfully capture, capture bonus.
You successfully complete an Arena, Arena Weapon.

You fail to defend, No Defense Tick
You fail to complete veteran dungeon, no Monster Helm.
You fail to capture, no Capture Bonus
You fail to complete Arena, no Arena Weapon.

See the parallels?' Here are your participation rewards for all of the aforementioned content.

You fail to defend but participate: Kill/Heal AP
You fail to complete Veteran Dungeon but complete some of it: Chest Loot/Other Boss Loot
You fail to capture but participate: Kill/Heal AP
You fail to complete an Arena but get to some stage: Whatever dropped before

You get your "stage rewards" in the form of kill AP/heal AP. Just because they're not big enough for you to recognize them as rewards doesn't mean they're not there.

I was in a 40 minute defense of Ash last night on Blackreach and while we ultimately lost and probably missed out on a 50-100k tick I still earned 20k by potshotting flaming skulls and catapults at folks.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So are the other side. This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it.

I just entered Cyro on one of my chars and went straight to Chal where there was a rather large fight. From the moment I arrived until it was finished took about 45 minutes. We ended up winning, but it could have gone either way until the very end. Before we got our dtick I'd gathered 75k (double due to event, but still) ap just being in the fight, if we'd lost I would have been sad but I wouldn't have felt like my efforts weren't recognized.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So much fighting against it. OK, I get the point. You don't want to consider something else. Up to now only ONE single person has really provided an argument against it that is constructive and did explain why an implementation of my suggestion would be bad. The others basically just say: Na, na, na, I don't want this.
Some even tried to be insulting in a hardly camouflaged way aliking me to a child. I wonder how adult such a behavior actually is...

Your suggestion is something that is mostly found in children's sports and events. That is a fact, not an insult. And I pointed it out, because I think this game has a more mature audience that should be treated differently.

Besides that, several people have put forth various constructive arguments, mostly that we already receive significant rewards even if the main objective isn't achieved, that the logic of rewarding positive PVP outcomes is in line with the rest of the game, and that participation prizes might incentivize less active PVP gameplay. While you're free to disagree with any of those, belittling dissenting voices as "na, na, na, I don't want this" isn't constructive either.