Point system in Cyrodiil

AnduinTryggva · July 25

I understand the logic: the winner takes it all in terms of AP, the loser none.

It feels nonetheless so unrewarding in the sense of even negatively "rewarding" after a huge battle and simply being overwhelmed by bad luck to get nothing at all for the defence or the attack.

It is just crap.

I think as a solace price one should get something like 10% of the potential points that one would have got in case of success. It is low enough to still push people to try to go for success but does not leave the people without any regognition of their effort in case of failure.

BetweenMidgets · July 25

Honestly, I'd rather not have a participation award. One side won, one side lost. I've been on both sides more than I'd care to count, and I see no problem with having a winner and loser.

Joy_Division · July 25

You get plenty of AP from killing enemies and healing allies.

You get rewards for actually participating.

kringled_1 · July 25

Joy_Division wrote: »

You get plenty of AP from killing enemies and healing allies.

You get rewards for actually participating.

If your group is sufficiently outclassed either in numbers or skill, and struggles to get kills, you get nothing. For me, that would be the sign to go somewhere else.

AnduinTryggva · July 25

Joy_Division wrote: »

You get plenty of AP from killing enemies and healing allies.

You get rewards for actually participating.

Is not the same.

This is a side effect but not the bounty itself.

My remark is not because it is about gaining AP but about recognition of the effort put into the activity.

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

Ph1p · July 25

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

No, you don’t. Access to chests are a reward for clearing the previous boss(es). Loot from minor bosses are the reward for, well, killing that minor boss. If you fail/wipe on a boss, you get nothing for your effort on that pull.

Tinkerhorn · July 25

AP should be given for all participants unless we want to pretend high PvP rank actually reflects ones ability at PvP and that Cyrodiil is a competitive game mode.
It's not even due to losing during peak times but the fact that outside of times having population parity it becomes punishing and disinsentivising to play.
If you're running a build which runs AP pots, you actively use siege weapons, and you actively repair while fighting against an alliance with a far greater population including all buffs (emp, scrolls, forts) you're already in a pretty cruddy situation so having it also be far more economically expensive on top of that is just ridiculous.

EDIT: Also low pop bonus is rubbish. It doesn't work and it's ill compensation on the extremely rare cases that it does apply.

AnduinTryggva · July 26

Ph1p wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In basically every other activity in ESO you get some sort of reward even if you fail. You don't need to kill the endboss to get access to chests and loot from minor bosses when you do a group dungeon or trial. Of course doing the endboss is much much better in terms of reward as they are higher value. But you don't get out of that specific activity with empty hands.

No, you don’t. Access to chests are a reward for clearing the previous boss(es). Loot from minor bosses are the reward for, well, killing that minor boss. If you fail/wipe on a boss, you get nothing for your effort on that pull.

The difference being that you have full control on your failure in PvE. You decide if you fail by simply not continuing your attempts to kill the boss or mini boss. In PvP in many situations it is out of your control. You can only defend a keep IF an enemy faction decides to attack it. And while in principle you could always decide to attack the same keep over and over again it is required that this keep is in enemy hands in the first place. Then to have a decent chance for success you have to bring numbers that at least match or even exceed the numbers of the enemy faction the latter also being completely out of your control.

I don't see what would be bad about giving the losing alliance some pity points as recognition for the effort put into the defence. I cited 10% of the points that would have been gained in case of a success. For a keep that would bring 7000 AP this would equate to 700 AP. Is negligible and still low enough to motivate players to go for a success but it is a recognition of the effort.

loosej · July 26

I'm not saying that a consolation prize is a bad idea, but I think it would be very hard to implement it your way without lowering the incentive to actually defend a keep.

Right now you'll scout keeps, announce attacks in zone chat, set up defenses and hope the cavalry arrives in time, all for a chance to get 100% reward. In the system you propose you could just as well get on the wall, hit a single player once with a staff/bow light attack, and then go flip some resources for ap knowing you'll get a guaranteed 10% of the attackers' reward once the keep turns.

If there's a huge fight at a keep (sad that we have to call this huge but let's say 20v20) and the attackers breach the outer gate, you have a choice: stick around for a chance at 100% reward, or leave immediately to a new target for a guaranteed 10% reward AND a chance at a 100% reward. A lot of players would choose the second option.

A fixed, guaranteed reward after losing a fight would reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of pvdoor, and I don't think those two need rebalancing. The current consolation prize (ap from kills/heals/resurrects/repairs) works because it only rewards you as long as you stay in the fight.

AnduinTryggva · July 26

You have a valid point. That's why I say the guaranteed price has to be very low. I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low as to make up for the remaining 90% by pvdoor as you say a player would have to find 9 other activities to which he has to port/ride to. Considering how long a battle lasts the chances of a point/minute is much higher with trying to get the 100% in one battle fought out than catching one tick at 9 different places that require to have 9 active activities at keeps etc. My guess is that it will take much much longer to fill up for the lost points. Repairing walls/doors could proove much more efficient in that regard. But of course nobody knows to which lengths players go so in case it evolves as you suggest I would be fine with a cooldown on pity points. You only get them once every 10min or so for a failed activity.

OsUfi · July 26

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low

If you're not making at least 10% AP during the battle of a keep battle tick, you're weren't participating.

AnduinTryggva · July 26

OsUfi wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low

If you're not making at least 10% AP during the battle of a keep battle tick, you're weren't participating.

That is not the point. I tried to explain the motivation for my suggestion twice and I do it now a third time.

It is NOT to boost AP numbers.

It is about RECOGNITION of effort put into it.

Considering that: Killing players and getting AP for it is a side effect available anyway irrespective of success or failure. This cannot be considered as recognition of effort.

A lot of effort is being there and distracting and dispersing enemy players even if you don't hit an enemy player. Putting up camps, sieges etc. that distract enemy fire and provides support for group.

katanagirl1 · July 26

Sorry if this has been posted above, a quick skim and I couldn’t find it.

I think the more players you get credit for killing during the fight gives you a better defense tick, but that is if you win of course. Also as mentioned above repairs give AP by themselves, regardless of whether you win or not. So if you can mend a breach but it gets destroyed and the keep flips you have something gained there. Reviving team makes who are down gives AP.

It does suck to put up a good defense but get overrun in the end. It has happened numerous times for me. I think even if you flip the keep but if it stays flagged and gets retaken there is no AP tick.

It does feel frustrating to spend time and get essentially nothing for it. However, if you are countersieging you can get a significant number of kills to make up. I was on my way to killing 150 players yesterday at Ash during a double breach when I got booted off and removed from the queue and lost any chance of AP if we had won.

EdjeSwift · July 26

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I on my side think that 10% is sufficiently low

If you're not making at least 10% AP during the battle of a keep battle tick, you're weren't participating.

That is not the point. I tried to explain the motivation for my suggestion twice and I do it now a third time.

It is NOT to boost AP numbers.

It is about RECOGNITION of effort put into it.

Considering that: Killing players and getting AP for it is a side effect available anyway irrespective of success or failure. This cannot be considered as recognition of effort.

A lot of effort is being there and distracting and dispersing enemy players even if you don't hit an enemy player. Putting up camps, sieges etc. that distract enemy fire and provides support for group.

First, what are Alliance Points? They are two things, currency and how your alliance war rank is calculated. Your alliance war rank is based upon alliance points accumulated which are based upon your contributions to your alliance; kills, captures, completion of objectives, and quests; and sometimes log-in rewards.

Cyrodiil isn't your normal PvP, it's an AvA war, your alliance points are recognition for your works towards your alliance and their goals in Cyrodiil, your generals and overlords don't care about your "efforts" they care about the results, they don't ask HOW you got Ghartok back to the temple, just that it got back to the temple. They don't ask HOW you killed those 150 enemies, just that you did it. Also, Kills ARE considered recognition and have been in war for nearly all of recorded history.
Example from WW2

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2018/11/robert-s-johnson-the-first-usaaf-fighter-pilot-in-the-european-theater-to-surpass-eddie-rickenbackers-world-war-i-score-of-26-victories.jpg

Scroll runners don't get AP for sprinting across the entirety of Cyrodiil, they get the AP for completing the objective only if they have the quest, they don't get recognition, so why should a losing effort get recognition? This is a war and war is heck.

AnduinTryggva · July 26

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

EdjeSwift · July 26

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

OsUfi · July 26

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

I mean, to add to the point, if you partake in the battle and lose you are still rewarded with AP throughout the battle. Even just healing can bring in a significant amount of AP.

AnduinTryggva · July 27

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

*sigh*

You get rewards at every stage during your travel through the arena even if the final reward has the highest value. Just stop bringing this up again and again if it just does not hit the nail please.

OsUfi wrote: »

I mean, to add to the point, if you partake in the battle and lose you are still rewarded with AP throughout the battle. Even just healing can bring in a significant amount of AP.

So are the other side. This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it.

OsUfi · July 27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

*sigh*

You get rewards at every stage during your travel through the arena even if the final reward has the highest value. Just stop bringing this up again and again if it just does not hit the nail please.

"This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it."

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

I mean, to add to the point, if you partake in the battle and lose you are still rewarded with AP throughout the battle. Even just healing can bring in a significant amount of AP.

So are the other side. This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it.

Oh...

Ph1p · July 27

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Xandreia_ · July 27

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Alot of players act like children...

Tinkerhorn · July 27

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Framing the argument as a consolation prize is in my opinion a mischatacterisation of many arguments. This isn't about a pat on the back and a thumbs up. From my perspectives it's simply just removing economic dissinsentives especially in regards to being less punitive to players in a population imbalance situation a.k.a. 18 out of the 24 hours in a day.
In a situation where you're defending a keep outnumbered 5 to 1 against a blob with high health and high healing (This is not in reference to ballgroups) there is not really any meaningful AP generation for the outnumbered but if you wanted to fully participate in the alliance war and are spending AP to fund the camps, the siege, the repairing, potentially potions etc... you're easily getting through thousands of AP yourself.
At current if the economics of PvP are important / a limitation for you, you're better off leaving cyrodiil.
Putting in a lot of effort with stacking dissadvantages and then reflecting on how there's pretty much 0 benefit in even bothering is not good for Cyrodiils health. Of course most of us PvP for PvPs sake but that doesn't mean it should be punished.
The game had low pop bonuses to try and tackle this but it rarely works at all and hasn't for years. It's much easier just to provide AP to all participants. It's not that every situation should be a net positive for alliance points, but taking off the high costs might also encourage more people to stick around a bit longer in uneven pop situations.
I'm not even talking about adding insentives which cyrodiil definitely could use more of. Just simply pointing out that this can be discouraging to PvPing in cyrodiil.
I know it wouldnt be anywhere near a solution to pop imbalances but it might help somewhat in preventing that sudden night exodus which does in part exist because of the "No point in staying" mentality / reality.

EdjeSwift · July 27

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Framing the argument as a consolation prize is in my opinion a mischatacterisation of many arguments. This isn't about a pat on the back and a thumbs up. From my perspectives it's simply just removing economic dissinsentives especially in regards to being less punitive to players in a population imbalance situation a.k.a. 18 out of the 24 hours in a day.
In a situation where you're defending a keep outnumbered 5 to 1 against a blob with high health and high healing (This is not in reference to ballgroups) there is not really any meaningful AP generation for the outnumbered but if you wanted to fully participate in the alliance war and are spending AP to fund the camps, the siege, the repairing, potentially potions etc... you're easily getting through thousands of AP yourself.
At current if the economics of PvP are important / a limitation for you, you're better off leaving cyrodiil.
Putting in a lot of effort with stacking dissadvantages and then reflecting on how there's pretty much 0 benefit in even bothering is not good for Cyrodiils health. Of course most of us PvP for PvPs sake but that doesn't mean it should be punished.
The game had low pop bonuses to try and tackle this but it rarely works at all and hasn't for years. It's much easier just to provide AP to all participants. It's not that every situation should be a net positive for alliance points, but taking off the high costs might also encourage more people to stick around a bit longer in uneven pop situations.
I'm not even talking about adding insentives which cyrodiil definitely could use more of. Just simply pointing out that this can be discouraging to PvPing in cyrodiil.
I know it wouldnt be anywhere near a solution to pop imbalances but it might help somewhat in preventing that sudden night exodus which does in part exist because of the "No point in staying" mentality / reality.

There is no mischaracterization being done here. The OP has LITERALLY called this solution pity points and a solace prize, the poster is merely calling this out.

Tinkerhorn · July 27

EdjeSwift wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds it kind of patronizing to assume that (adult) players need "pity points" or a "solace prize" to get over a temporary setback in PVP? Of course, I understand and fully support the concept of a participation award or consolation prize, but they are usually given out to children...

Framing the argument as a consolation prize is in my opinion a mischatacterisation of many arguments. This isn't about a pat on the back and a thumbs up. From my perspectives it's simply just removing economic dissinsentives especially in regards to being less punitive to players in a population imbalance situation a.k.a. 18 out of the 24 hours in a day.
In a situation where you're defending a keep outnumbered 5 to 1 against a blob with high health and high healing (This is not in reference to ballgroups) there is not really any meaningful AP generation for the outnumbered but if you wanted to fully participate in the alliance war and are spending AP to fund the camps, the siege, the repairing, potentially potions etc... you're easily getting through thousands of AP yourself.
At current if the economics of PvP are important / a limitation for you, you're better off leaving cyrodiil.
Putting in a lot of effort with stacking dissadvantages and then reflecting on how there's pretty much 0 benefit in even bothering is not good for Cyrodiils health. Of course most of us PvP for PvPs sake but that doesn't mean it should be punished.
The game had low pop bonuses to try and tackle this but it rarely works at all and hasn't for years. It's much easier just to provide AP to all participants. It's not that every situation should be a net positive for alliance points, but taking off the high costs might also encourage more people to stick around a bit longer in uneven pop situations.
I'm not even talking about adding insentives which cyrodiil definitely could use more of. Just simply pointing out that this can be discouraging to PvPing in cyrodiil.
I know it wouldnt be anywhere near a solution to pop imbalances but it might help somewhat in preventing that sudden night exodus which does in part exist because of the "No point in staying" mentality / reality.

There is no mischaracterization being done here. The OP has LITERALLY called this solution pity points and a solace prize, the poster is merely calling this out.

Fair enough. I had forgot the original post and suppose my argument is against the OP's framing of the argument. The argument put forward by OP is poor but there are good reasons for distributing AP across the board.

EdjeSwift · July 27

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Fair enough. I had forgot the original post and suppose my argument is against the OP's framing of the argument. The argument put forward by OP is poor but there are good reasons for distributing AP across the board.

In a perfect world, yes. But as has been brought up here, people would most likely abuse this system and game it. As other threads have pointed out there is imbalance in the force, and that's not because of ZoS, but because we take what's given to us and use it to our own means.

To quote a pop star who stole another popular quote, "This is why we can't have nice things"

EdjeSwift · July 27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

[...]

This is a war and war is heck.

This is a game and a game is about having fun and part of the fun in an MMORG is getting rewards.

You are rewarded; for completing your objective. Which is either defending a keep or taking a keep.; killing; or completing a quest.

You don't get rewarded for losing. Just like you don't get a Maelstrom Weapon for not beating the Arena, you don't get AP for not completing your objective.

*sigh*

You get rewards at every stage during your travel through the arena even if the final reward has the highest value. Just stop bringing this up again and again if it just does not hit the nail please.

No, you don't. You don't get a MAELSTROM WEAPON from losing. Just like you don't get a tick from defense. These are the rewards you get from COMPLETING your objective.

You successfully defend, Defense Tick.
You successfully complete Veteran Dungeon, Monster Helm.
You successfully capture, capture bonus.
You successfully complete an Arena, Arena Weapon.

You fail to defend, No Defense Tick
You fail to complete veteran dungeon, no Monster Helm.
You fail to capture, no Capture Bonus
You fail to complete Arena, no Arena Weapon.

See the parallels?' Here are your participation rewards for all of the aforementioned content.

You fail to defend but participate: Kill/Heal AP
You fail to complete Veteran Dungeon but complete some of it: Chest Loot/Other Boss Loot
You fail to capture but participate: Kill/Heal AP
You fail to complete an Arena but get to some stage: Whatever dropped before

You get your "stage rewards" in the form of kill AP/heal AP. Just because they're not big enough for you to recognize them as rewards doesn't mean they're not there.

I was in a 40 minute defense of Ash last night on Blackreach and while we ultimately lost and probably missed out on a 50-100k tick I still earned 20k by potshotting flaming skulls and catapults at folks.

AnduinTryggva · July 27

So much fighting against it. OK, I get the point. You don't want to consider something else. Up to now only ONE single person has really provided an argument against it that is constructive and did explain why an implementation of my suggestion would be bad. The others basically just say: Na, na, na, I don't want this.
Some even tried to be insulting in a hardly camouflaged way aliking me to a child. I wonder how adult such a behavior actually is...

loosej · July 27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So are the other side. This is a side effect of the activity and does not count to a sign of recognition of the effort put into it.

I just entered Cyro on one of my chars and went straight to Chal where there was a rather large fight. From the moment I arrived until it was finished took about 45 minutes. We ended up winning, but it could have gone either way until the very end. Before we got our dtick I'd gathered 75k (double due to event, but still) ap just being in the fight, if we'd lost I would have been sad but I wouldn't have felt like my efforts weren't recognized.

katanagirl1 · July 27

I understand the frustration - believe me I really do.

It can be bad when it’s a situation of 1 bar versus 6, but hopefully during the event you can find a campaign that is busy enough for you to be able to participate. My faction has got their butts kicked quite a few times so far but at least eventually someone rallies them to take back our keeps. Non event days with 1 bar it’s just better to go do something else.

PvP is just different than PvE, you are reliant on others to get the job done whether you are leading a group or not. Sometime they just don’t cooperate.

Ph1p · July 27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So much fighting against it. OK, I get the point. You don't want to consider something else. Up to now only ONE single person has really provided an argument against it that is constructive and did explain why an implementation of my suggestion would be bad. The others basically just say: Na, na, na, I don't want this.
Some even tried to be insulting in a hardly camouflaged way aliking me to a child. I wonder how adult such a behavior actually is...

Your suggestion is something that is mostly found in children's sports and events. That is a fact, not an insult. And I pointed it out, because I think this game has a more mature audience that should be treated differently.

Besides that, several people have put forth various constructive arguments, mostly that we already receive significant rewards even if the main objective isn't achieved, that the logic of rewarding positive PVP outcomes is in line with the rest of the game, and that participation prizes might incentivize less active PVP gameplay. While you're free to disagree with any of those, belittling dissenting voices as "na, na, na, I don't want this" isn't constructive either.