ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

i like number 3.
i would love it if my weapon refills my highest resource even if it's a bow for Magicka or a staff for Stamina.

Major_Toughness wrote: »

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

I don't understand your hostility. I'm not following some "mantra" but merely commenting on something the developers say. Its literally the first section in this forum post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624269/eso-developer-deep-dive-core-combat-values/p1

My post was merely an ask. I'm not saying this is how the game has to be. As I said, I like the game, I'd just like it more with more options. I'm sure the amazing dev team can think of a way (probably better) to implement this. This was just a way to convey what I (and at least some of the community) would like.

I would like to counter your comment of "X ... Needs to stop," with, "Elitist who think their way of playing is the right way because they don't want to have to watch tutorials and build guides over again when something changes because they have to be meta and are unable to do things for themselves, and if even the devs make a change against them then the devs are wrong, and also don't want anyone else to have fun, even though it wouldn't effect them," needs to stop (sentence structure intentional). Me having fun questing and running around the map isn't going to diminish your oh-so-amazing in-game achievements (sarcasm aside, some of them are actually impressive and I am sometimes jealous I don't have the time to try these things. Seriously, I could probably name a good equipment set and you could probably tell me off the top of your head where to find it. Genuinely impressive). I barely have time to play, let alone research sets and skills and rotations and possible "build" interactions to see how to "fix my resource management." (By play I mean basic game content. I have never done trials, or VET dungeons, or non-zerg PvP.)

Bottom line, let people have fun. If you are as good of a player as you think you are, you can adapt and thrive in any patch. I believe in you.

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

Soarora wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

May I ask for further clarification? My recommendation was that all morphs would be useable. Is the current Mag morph the best, but you are running Stam? Well, with the change I asked for, you would be able to take the best morph, regardless of Stam or Mag.

That's what I mean. That means both stam and mag will be using the same single morph, the other morph will be pointless unless it has niche use in PvE or PvP and both stam and mag will play the exact same but with different resource bars. (For instance, mag and stam arcanist both use the same beam skill, thus the same spammable, which is part of why both flavors of arcanist DPS look almost identical)

With hybridization, you can take mag or stam morphs and change your regeneration to match or just balance between mag and stam because mag and stam skills both scale off your weapon or spell damage/highest resource damage-wise. This demolished a lot of difference between stam and mag playstyles however it does at least allow this pick and choose you want. Making every morph have dynamic costs would obliterate what differences we have left between mag and stam playstyles.

Ah, I see your point. I feel this is partially my mistake because I'm not the best at communicating ideas, and have chosen poor words in certain places.

Please allow me to try to explain in a different way. This way I know that we are on the same page, and, if you are so inclined, we can continue to exchange ideas on the matter.

First, hello! I hope you are having a pleasant day!

Second, my use of best, when saying that a mag or stam skill is best, was the wrong choice of words. It was more implied as in what you like best, and not in a meta best kind of way.

Next, I absolutely agree that the dynamic resource cost isn't the way to go. I believe it even more so after talking to some IRL people about it, and hearing the feedback on this post.

Essentially ignore ideas 1 and 2 from above. These were more of a supporting concept to try to convey mt desire for the ability to use more skills. I don't want to edit the post and remove them because anyone who tries to follow along could get confused, and it can sometimes look kinda shifty when people edit comments during a discussion. (Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough in the forums to do it)(wait, I think I have an idea. I think I can use strikethrough? I'll try to figure it out)

To the point of less diversity, I see what you are saying. My comment on this would be it's more of a skill balancing issue. If everyone is picking option A over option B, then one of the 2 is broken, and should be fixed. Hypothetically, it would make the issue easier to see for the devs if everyone has A over B, and it would be balanced. Unfortunately, that isn't always how things go. Therefore your apprehensions and concerns there are 100% valid and agreeable.

Now, what about point 3 above? Specifically the part where you can choose what resource your heavy attacks refund. That would, hypothetically, not alter the balance as much. You wouldn't get more damage on your off resource skills, but you could sustain them. This would make them less effective, and still give some flexibility with your build. This is the option that is getting the most positive feedback, and the one I actually prefer. It boils down to you not being forced to use a weapon type just to sustain everything. As it is, people already do this by throwing a bow or staff on their back bar. This just gives more freedom with weapon selection and overall playstyle concept. THIS is what I am really asking and aiming for.

I hope this makes more sense, and I am open to, and welcome, more feedback and criticism.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

Pure melee mag is effective, and absolutely you do not need to use a staff to be a mag character. Before arcanist and even now in some ways, magicka dragonknight was the top DPS in the game. Magicka dragonknight is melee and uses daggers on frontbar and a greatsword backbar. This same thought process goes for other classes as well:
Dragonknight is melee because their class spammable--whip--is melee, so you might as well use daggers because they have the best stats.
Templar is the same, they're melee because their class spammable--jabs--is melee, so you also might as well use daggers (unless you're doing ranged templar because of how strong beam is but that's a newer thing).
Arcanist is ranged but often played in melee range (same with any other build, melee range is good for skills that are aoes around you, in group content it's good so healers can effectively buff you, in solo content you are in melee range because the enemies will chase you anyways...) and also uses daggers because of Velothi Amulet, it's fine to just hit air.
Magicka nightblade is also melee, so you are also best off using daggers.
This is just speaking on meta, of course, you can use any weapon you want. But point is, the best mag builds for several classes actually are melee without staves. The only class you actually need to use a staff on is magicka warden because winters revenge requires a staff to get the most damage out of it, plus a lot of magicka warden damage comes from frost reach.
I'm not sure if your argument is based on not knowing about hybridization or sustain, but any morph and any weapon scales the same regardless on if you're mag or stam. Sustain-wise, well, just pick some morphs of the opposite cost from your main pool. Also, make sure you're using a food that is max main resource + recovery at least. You should not need to regularly heavy attack for resources most of the time.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Second, my use of best, when saying that a mag or stam skill is best, was the wrong choice of words. It was more implied as in what you like best, and not in a meta best kind of way.

You can already do this, though, and unfortunately diversity in meta is also important for the communities who have metas. I use streak + dark conversion on my stamina sorcerer because I want to, for instance. I use bound aegis instead of bound armaments too. You have more options than I think you realize.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Next, I absolutely agree that the dynamic resource cost isn't the way to go. I believe it even more so after talking to some IRL people about it, and hearing the feedback on this post.

Essentially ignore ideas 1 and 2 from above. These were more of a supporting concept to try to convey mt desire for the ability to use more skills. I don't want to edit the post and remove them because anyone who tries to follow along could get confused, and it can sometimes look kinda shifty when people edit comments during a discussion. (Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough in the forums to do it)(wait, I think I have an idea. I think I can use strikethrough? I'll try to figure it out)

Haha I edit my comments all the time because I think of more to say, oops. I'm glad you've changed your mind though.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

To the point of less diversity, I see what you are saying. My comment on this would be it's more of a skill balancing issue. If everyone is picking option A over option B, then one of the 2 is broken, and should be fixed. Hypothetically, it would make the issue easier to see for the devs if everyone has A over B, and it would be balanced. Unfortunately, that isn't always how things go. Therefore your apprehensions and concerns there are 100% valid and agreeable.

Some morphs or even entire skills do have this problem where everyone does choose one option over another. I really believe that some skills need to be reworked to have niche uses, like how both Arcanist beam skills are useful to the point people will even change morphs depending on the trial they're going to do. With there being solo, group PvP, solo PvP, IA, dungeons, trials, roleplay, tanks, healers, and DPS, there should be some use for every skill. But some are just horribly lacking, like bursting vines, lotus flower, living vines, summoner's armor, runeblades, tentacular dread, consuming darkness, imbue weapon, mend spirit...

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Now, what about point 3 above? Specifically the part where you can choose what resource your heavy attacks refund. That would, hypothetically, not alter the balance as much. You wouldn't get more damage on your off resource skills, but you could sustain them. This would make them less effective, and still give some flexibility with your build. This is the option that is getting the most positive feedback, and the one I actually prefer. It boils down to you not being forced to use a weapon type just to sustain everything. As it is, people already do this by throwing a bow or staff on their back bar. This just gives more freedom with weapon selection and overall playstyle concept. THIS is what I am really asking and aiming for.

I hope this makes more sense, and I am open to, and welcome, more feedback and criticism.

You can resolve your sustain in more issues than heavy attacking. I hate heavy attacking and only do it as a last resort. There's sustain CP, sustain food/drink, switching some skills to an off-resource costing morph, applying magickasteal, enchantments, armor weights, sustain skills (such as netch), potions...

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

I don't understand your hostility. I'm not following some "mantra" but merely commenting on something the developers say. Its literally the first section in this forum post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624269/eso-developer-deep-dive-core-combat-values/p1

My post was merely an ask. I'm not saying this is how the game has to be. As I said, I like the game, I'd just like it more with more options. I'm sure the amazing dev team can think of a way (probably better) to implement this. This was just a way to convey what I (and at least some of the community) would like.

I would like to counter your comment of "X ... Needs to stop," with, "Elitist who think their way of playing is the right way because they don't want to have to watch tutorials and build guides over again when something changes because they have to be meta and are unable to do things for themselves, and if even the devs make a change against them then the devs are wrong, and also don't want anyone else to have fun, even though it wouldn't effect them," needs to stop (sentence structure intentional). Me having fun questing and running around the map isn't going to diminish your oh-so-amazing in-game achievements (sarcasm aside, some of them are actually impressive and I am sometimes jealous I don't have the time to try these things. Seriously, I could probably name a good equipment set and you could probably tell me off the top of your head where to find it. Genuinely impressive). I barely have time to play, let alone research sets and skills and rotations and possible "build" interactions to see how to "fix my resource management." (By play I mean basic game content. I have never done trials, or VET dungeons, or non-zerg PvP.)

Bottom line, let people have fun. If you are as good of a player as you think you are, you can adapt and thrive in any patch. I believe in you.

Toxic casual alert.

Can you do all the content you wish to do, on the class you wish to do it on?

I know the answer is yes, therefore "Play How You Want" is already working.

I have never understood the mentality of "I don't want to look at guides, read about skills or sets, or ask for help. But I will log on the forums and propose a drastic combat change."

Also trials are super fun and you can do normal trials with group finder literally by holding down left-click on a heavy attack build. You should give it a go, you are missing out on some really cool stuff.

Oh sorry you don't know what a heavy attack build is, you don't have time to do research.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

We can equip any weapon we choose regardless of our build. However, with some choices, there are tradeoffs, which is why the devs' comment in the thread that you linked states, "Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others."


In other words, it is intended that such choices will not work as well as other choices. The devs say as much.

2a - answered by the devs that no all combinations would be optimal.
2b - The game's history proves this is a fact, not a fallacy. The devs eliminated magic crit from Daggers in the first year. Players started using bows in magic builds for an increase in damage it provided at the time. Devs quickly had to change the related passive. There are a number of skills that have been changed over the years only to have them changed again within months due to performance that was not intended. Yea, not a fallacy
2c - Since the server would have to track our choices for what resource a skill used, it would obviously add to the server load.
We know this because the server load was increased when Zenimax moved, keeping track of our resources to the server instead of the client. This would have the same effect. Again, not a fallacy

Knowledge of the server architecture is not required. Just knowledge of the game and it's history.

Now THESE are discussion points I can work with. Your points, as written previously, were all fallacies. You may have known the details, so to you they weren't fallacies. However, I do not have access to the information in your head, and may not have had access to the information you were thinking of. By providing examples you take the reader from, "Trust me, bro. It's how I feel," to a more founded point of view (why does this sentence sound wrong to me).

Also, good morning! I hope you are having a good day. (It's not really morning, but I just woke up)

2a) Was referring to, "Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build." I was not arguing for ultimate control, and is an over exaggeration of what I was asking for.

New 2a) I feel there is a fundamental flaw in the wording by the devs that is causing all of our disconnects on this topic. The flaw is that "more effective than others" is a very subjective term. Some choices work better than others, but some choices would absolutely not work at all. Factors that can play into this are more than just the mechanics of the game. Individual skill level, general game experience and knowledge, and time available to dedicate to the game can all play a role in what is and isn't effective. I think that we just have different definitions of what is effective, and what would be ineffective all-together, and that's cool. I respect your opinion.

It is irrelevant whether the suggestion is for ultimate control or not. The argument posed in the OP is that the current design, or the lack of the suggestion of being a part of the game, is "not very "Play Your Way." The developers have said the game is to play as you want, but that does not mean every choice is as effective as others. As such, the foundation for the argument concerning the suggestion is based on an opinion that does not align with the developers of the game and the majority of respondents here.

As far as "all of our disconnects on the topic," most of us do not have a disconnect from the play-as-you-want as defined and designed by the developers. Most of us understand that some choices improve and others weaken a build. That is life.

Thank you for providing such a suggestion and for responding to the feedback. It seems we are running around in circles and have noted our thoughts on the matter ad nauseam. Good luck with your suggestion.