Mender's Bond

ForumSavant · June 17

I agree that the heal on Sage's Remedy was strong, but how does it go unnoticed on the PTS for months when everyone was aware of how strong it was? None of the players had any idea it was scaling incorrectly and people bought the expansion just because it was such a strong heal for PvE and PvP. It has been on the PTS and live for over 2 months and it just now gets noticed that it's scaling 10.5x stronger than it was supposed to? [snip] Again, I agree with it being strong, but it's the biggest nerf I have EVER seen on a skill in literally any game I've ever played, and it going unnoticed just seems bad faith.

[edited for bashing & conspiracy theory]

ApoAlaia · June 17

IMO they should have taken the same stance they took with the 'Grim Focus Permaglow':

Is already in the game, there were positive reports about it, therefore they leave it as it is.

Just put some flavour text in the description - after the fact - that 'retcons' why is so strong and move on.

Ishtarknows · June 17

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

dcam86b14_ESO · June 17

Well good thing I never messed with it like some others who got banned for exploits

ToRelax · June 17

There wasn't much talk about it on PTS, and everyone was expecting future nerfs. This one is heavy, yes, but then it also puts it in line with how much the secondary HoT does on other grimoires - not much.

ForumSavant · June 17

Nobody actually engaging with the point being made, which is par for the course for most of what I see on here. The skill was obviously strong, but everyone was well aware of the strong tooltip on the heal, that's why it got so much attention to begin with. The real question is how does it get brought to live after 2 months on the PTS and then only after it's claimed to be a bug with it's scaling to such a high degree?

sarahthes · June 17

Why couldn't some sort of middle ground be taken rather than making sure the only scribed skill that is useful in PvE endgame is the pull?

SolarRune · June 17

This got through QA, it was working that way on PTS where there was no issue raised with it, yes it was strong but not really out of place against other healing skills so I can see why no one raised an issue with it - this makes sages remedy useless compared to other heals already in the game. It was great to see so much variation in healer setups over the last couple of weeks because of the difference this made, but now it looks like we will be taking a backward step to the way things were before.

Elrond87 · June 17

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

if its one that heals when leaving the link i think it ticked a heal for 5-6k each sec for 5 seconds now mine reads 1.2k a sec

Aurielle · June 17

Elrond87 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

if its one that heals when leaving the link i think it ticked a heal for 5-6k each sec for 5 seconds now mine reads 1.2k a sec

So it’s useless now, basically. Perfect, thanks, at least I won’t have to waste ink on this for my healer. 👌

sarahthes · June 17

Aurielle wrote: »

Elrond87 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

if its one that heals when leaving the link i think it ticked a heal for 5-6k each sec for 5 seconds now mine reads 1.2k a sec

So it’s useless now, basically. Perfect, thanks, at least I won’t have to waste ink on this for my healer. 👌

Correct. Perhaps if the targeting was better it would be useful for the group buffs or ult transfer... but the targeting is terrible.

virtus753 · June 17

It shouldn’t have been the case that it was 10.5x higher than it was supposed to be.

Skills take the higher of your max spell or weapon damage and add that to the higher of your max stam or mag divided by 10.5. Then they multiply that sum by a coefficient.

For example, with 8k spell/weapon damage and 30k max stam/mag, you would get 8,000 + 30k/10.5 = 8000 + 2857 = 10,857

That 10,857 would be multiplied by a coefficient particular to that skill to get the base number for the tooltip. That then would be modified by CP and other bonuses.

According to the patch notes, it was only the second part of that formula that was bugged. So in this example, instead of 10,857, it was doing 8,000 + 30,000 = 38,000.

While yes, there is definitely a big gap between 10,857 and 38,000, it isn’t close to 10.5x. That’s why you’re not seeing tooltips slashed by over 90%.

Ishtarknows · June 17

Thanks for your answers. So it's basically gonna be worth less than a radiating regen or vigor? Well worth the ink then

SolarRune · June 17

The heals are 80-90% down on where they were from this skill - so what ever was changes is working as described in the patch notes

SolarRune · June 17

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Thanks for your answers. So it's basically gonna be worth less than a radiating regen or vigor? Well worth the ink then

Yes much less

SeaUnicorn · June 17

Not one to complain usually, but ZOS has unexplained dismissal of any healer feedback for years now. PVPers cry about cross heals being OP, PVE healers get nerfs because of it. Been like that for years. I bet someone was pocket healing 2vX with it, that's why the nerf

sarahthes · June 17

virtus753 wrote: »

It shouldn’t have been the case that it was 10.5x higher than it was supposed to be.

Skills take the higher of your max spell or weapon damage and add that to the higher of your max stam or mag divided by 10.5. Then they multiply that sum by a coefficient.

For example, with 8k spell/weapon damage and 30k max stam/mag, you would get 8,000 + 30k/10.5 = 8000 + 2857 = 10,857

That 10,857 would be multiplied by a coefficient particular to that skill to get the base number for the tooltip. That then would be modified by CP and other bonuses.

According to the patch notes, it was only the second part of that formula that was bugged. So in this example, instead of 10,857, it was doing 8,000 + 30,000 = 38,000.

While yes, there is definitely a big gap between 10,857 and 38,000, it isn’t close to 10.5x. That’s why you’re not seeing tooltips slashed by over 90%.

The tooltips I'm seeing now are 2300 not 10857...

virtus753 · June 17

sarahthes wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

It shouldn’t have been the case that it was 10.5x higher than it was supposed to be.

Skills take the higher of your max spell or weapon damage and add that to the higher of your max stam or mag divided by 10.5. Then they multiply that sum by a coefficient.

For example, with 8k spell/weapon damage and 30k max stam/mag, you would get 8,000 + 30k/10.5 = 8000 + 2857 = 10,857

That 10,857 would be multiplied by a coefficient particular to that skill to get the base number for the tooltip. That then would be modified by CP and other bonuses.

According to the patch notes, it was only the second part of that formula that was bugged. So in this example, instead of 10,857, it was doing 8,000 + 30,000 = 38,000.

While yes, there is definitely a big gap between 10,857 and 38,000, it isn’t close to 10.5x. That’s why you’re not seeing tooltips slashed by over 90%.

The tooltips I'm seeing now are 2300 not 10857...

That’s because you didn’t multiply your raw figure by the coefficient for that particular skill to get the tooltip.

Add your weapon/spell damage (whichever is higher) to the higher of your max mag or stam divided by 10.5, then multiply that by the skill’s coefficient. Then factor in your buffs to healing/damage, depending on the skill.

The raw coefficients are here for most skills:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills

At a glance I don’t see Scribing added yet, but the principle is the same for all skills.

You can also just use that UI to play with various stats and see your tooltip without bothering with the raw info.

Note that proc sets are different, since the offensive ones scale only with weapon/spell damage (except in rare cases like RO or Hrothgar’s), not your max resources.

SeaUnicorn · June 17

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

It went from 30k over 5s to 3k over 5s on geared toon w/o raid buffs, so from strongest hot in game to weakest

On average I get 1k/s tooltips on other hots.

ForumSavant · June 17

virtus753 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

It shouldn’t have been the case that it was 10.5x higher than it was supposed to be.

Skills take the higher of your max spell or weapon damage and add that to the higher of your max stam or mag divided by 10.5. Then they multiply that sum by a coefficient.

For example, with 8k spell/weapon damage and 30k max stam/mag, you would get 8,000 + 30k/10.5 = 8000 + 2857 = 10,857

That 10,857 would be multiplied by a coefficient particular to that skill to get the base number for the tooltip. That then would be modified by CP and other bonuses.

According to the patch notes, it was only the second part of that formula that was bugged. So in this example, instead of 10,857, it was doing 8,000 + 30,000 = 38,000.

While yes, there is definitely a big gap between 10,857 and 38,000, it isn’t close to 10.5x. That’s why you’re not seeing tooltips slashed by over 90%.

The tooltips I'm seeing now are 2300 not 10857...

That’s because you didn’t multiply your raw figure by the coefficient for that particular skill to get the tooltip.

Add your weapon/spell damage (whichever is higher) to the higher of your max mag or stam divided by 10.5, then multiply that by the skill’s coefficient. Then factor in your buffs to healing/damage, depending on the skill.

The raw coefficients are here for most skills:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills

At a glance I don’t see Scribing added yet, but the principle is the same for all skills.

You can also just use that UI to play with various stats and see your tooltip without bothering with the raw info.

Note that proc sets are different, since the offensive ones scale only with weapon/spell damage (except in rare cases like RO or Hrothgar’s), not your max resources.

The scaling on sage's remedy is awful. 1 SD/WD does not increase the tooltip by 1, whatever coefficients they use are miniscule in comparison to other skills. With 30k max mag and 8k spell dmg the HOT is under 7k. A realistic example for a PvE healer would be 6k over 5 where other heals are double the HPS in a much easier to use AOE.

virtus753 · June 17

ForumSavant wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

It shouldn’t have been the case that it was 10.5x higher than it was supposed to be.

Skills take the higher of your max spell or weapon damage and add that to the higher of your max stam or mag divided by 10.5. Then they multiply that sum by a coefficient.

For example, with 8k spell/weapon damage and 30k max stam/mag, you would get 8,000 + 30k/10.5 = 8000 + 2857 = 10,857

That 10,857 would be multiplied by a coefficient particular to that skill to get the base number for the tooltip. That then would be modified by CP and other bonuses.

According to the patch notes, it was only the second part of that formula that was bugged. So in this example, instead of 10,857, it was doing 8,000 + 30,000 = 38,000.

While yes, there is definitely a big gap between 10,857 and 38,000, it isn’t close to 10.5x. That’s why you’re not seeing tooltips slashed by over 90%.

The tooltips I'm seeing now are 2300 not 10857...

That’s because you didn’t multiply your raw figure by the coefficient for that particular skill to get the tooltip.

Add your weapon/spell damage (whichever is higher) to the higher of your max mag or stam divided by 10.5, then multiply that by the skill’s coefficient. Then factor in your buffs to healing/damage, depending on the skill.

The raw coefficients are here for most skills:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills

At a glance I don’t see Scribing added yet, but the principle is the same for all skills.

You can also just use that UI to play with various stats and see your tooltip without bothering with the raw info.

Note that proc sets are different, since the offensive ones scale only with weapon/spell damage (except in rare cases like RO or Hrothgar’s), not your max resources.

The scaling on sage's remedy is awful. 1 SD/WD does not increase the tooltip by 1, whatever coefficients they use are miniscule in comparison to other skills. With 30k max mag and 8k spell dmg the HOT is under 7k. A realistic example for a PvE healer would be 6k over 5 where other heals are double the HPS in a much easier to use AOE.

Yeah, I actually expect the coefficients to be even weaker here than elsewhere, in part because of the budget of the skill being split into multiple components (three per skill, from what I’ve seen) and then each component having multiple possibilities. A HoT from this skill is not going to hold up to a dedicated HoT from a fixed (non-Scribing) skill, especially one that has only one or two components.

If UESP doesn’t have the actual coefficients for this one I might try to figure them out on the PTS for comparison.

React · June 17

Nothing to see here, move along.

Reginald_leBlem · June 17

Why can't we have nice things???

virtus753 · June 17

It appears the coefficient for this script is between 0.629 and 0.630.

The coefficient does not change if you only include the HoT on leaving the tether. Leaving out the two other scripts does not help the remaining script, so there is no way to get this one component to come anywhere close to the budget of a full skill. That is one of the big limitations of Scribing.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 17

I think it's a good fix but the heal could be buffed from what it is because it requires standing in a tether, but people should have gotten 3 ink to make up for it.

As far as why it took so long, I don't see any reason to assume it's not just about when it came up on the list of bugs to fix or feedback to read.

SeaUnicorn · June 17

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I think it's a good fix but the heal could be buffed from what it is because it requires standing in a tether, but people should have gotten 3 ink to make up for it.

As far as why it took so long, I don't see any reason to assume it's not just about when it came up on the list of bugs to fix or feedback to read.

If the bug is in the list, but cant be fixed on time, it should be in the known issues. It was not in the known issues even though there were ALOT of mentions of it looking too strong. I guessed immediately that someone fat-fingered an extra 0 in the scaling formula. The fix for it is very very simple too, just remove that 0.
And based on some of our feedback VODs mender bond did get a fix to range and cast animation in the week 3 patch, but not the healing strength.
It just blatant negligence at this point on the part of Product Managers to let it go undocumented.

Galeriano2 · June 17

Aurielle wrote: »

Elrond87 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I read the patch notes and was pretty shocked tbh. I play on console so I have not experienced scribing yet, but my raid lead has given me a list of scribing to get for my healer and this was on it.

What sort of numbers are we talking here? What was it hitting for before that it's worth slotting for a tenth of the value?

if its one that heals when leaving the link i think it ticked a heal for 5-6k each sec for 5 seconds now mine reads 1.2k a sec

So it’s useless now, basically. Perfect, thanks, at least I won’t have to waste ink on this for my healer. 👌

Not completly useless. Skill still have some different interresting support features other than HoT. To be honest one more healing ability wasn't even that much needed with already existing abundace of crossheals.

mctaff · June 18

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Note completly useless. Skill still have some different interresting support features other than HoT. To be honest one more healing ability wasn't even that much needed with already existing abundace of crossheals.

Sounds great. Same old bowl of oatmeal for the last seven years; who needs any variety or options?

Galeriano2 · June 18

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Why can't we have nice things???

Because lots of things that people reffer to as "nice" is usually an overpowered stuff that breaks the balance and causes long term issues.

Shadowbinder7 · June 29

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Why can't we have nice things???

Ask Taylor

This is why we can’t have nice things