Consider Player Wardens for Bots

Sariias · May 2014

Dear Zenimax,

Bots are everywhere, and I know you guys are working on it, but from the player viewpoint there is very little input and it's hard to see what's going on. I've heard Gamemasters in game and was lucky to see them purge some areas but the goldfarmers appear to have much more time and manpower (or robot power) than you guys. This is the case with most MMO's. I also rarely see the same bot twice, but I don't know if that's because a gamemaster eradicated it or if the goldfarmers are cycling through characters quickly like some sort of fence operation.

Still, many players are concerned that you're not moving fast enough, and again, it easily looks that way from our side. We don't see you in your offices swearing under your breath as you read every single report and investigate the players and finally go through the process of banning bots. We just see the trains and herds of bots and zone channel spam and people walking in the air like they own the place. I'm sure there's procedure and paperwork involved, because you're removing people who are paying you (or at least will pay assuming their credit cards are valid and they're out of comp time) and when money is involved things always take longer. You guys don't want lawsuits, and that's fair. At the same time, Tamriel is yours, and we wish you'd throw your weight around more.

My suggestion is to recruit player volunteers to search for bots for you and act as alert wardens. I don't mean give them any authority, but give them a system where when they report bots their report is elevated as a priority to Gamemasters.

I would gladly spend an hour of my playtime wading through Stonefalls and elsewhere reporting Jute farming and mob farming bots. I pretty much do already. If you recruit players who recognize bots and give their bot reporting a priority (no other reports from them would receive special priority), it might help streamline your system.

Excelsior,
-Sars

babylon · May 2014

I agree with this suggestion - the only way I would support player "wardens" or somesuch is if the players weren't given any powers at all to do anything, but they were given some kind of "speed dial" to GMs so they could contact a GM quickly and get that GM to dispatch and ban the bots quickly.

Maybe hook the "player wardens" up with a messenger program and a GM on the other end ready to come to their location when called upon.

crush83 · May 2014

babylon wrote: »

I agree with this suggestion - the only way I would support player "wardens" or somesuch is if the players weren't given any powers at all to do anything, but they were given some kind of "speed dial" to GMs so they could contact a GM quickly and get that GM to dispatch and ban the bots quickly.

Maybe hook the "player wardens" up with a messenger program and a GM on the other end ready to come to their location when called upon.

That's pretty much what I got from reading the OPs post. The wardens have no power. They just have a red phone to the GMs.

It's an okay idea, but how would wardens be selected? There would need to be some criteria to ensure that these wardens weren't trolls who were reporting regular players as bots or wasting GMs time.

babylon · May 2014

crush83 wrote: »

It's an okay idea, but how would wardens be selected? There would need to be some criteria to ensure that these wardens weren't trolls who were reporting regular players as bots or wasting GMs time.

Maybe just choose the ones who have been correctly reporting bots up to this point?

Basil_oz · May 2014

Or who have a bat phone... or in this case, a bot phone!

Ackwalan · May 2014

Since banned accounts will be removed from your ignore list, you can now do a report, then add them to ignore, if the name gets cleared you know something was done.

Reignskream · May 2014

Sariiasb14_ESO wrote: »

Dear Zenimax,

Bots are everywhere, and I know you guys are working on it, but from the player viewpoint there is very little input and it's hard to see what's going on. I've heard Gamemasters in game and was lucky to see them purge some areas but the goldfarmers appear to have much more time and manpower (or robot power) than you guys. This is the case with most MMO's. I also rarely see the same bot twice, but I don't know if that's because a gamemaster eradicated it or if the goldfarmers are cycling through characters quickly like some sort of fence operation.

Still, many players are concerned that you're not moving fast enough, and again, it easily looks that way from our side. We don't see you in your offices swearing under your breath as you read every single report and investigate the players and finally go through the process of banning bots. We just see the trains and herds of bots and zone channel spam and people walking in the air like they own the place. I'm sure there's procedure and paperwork involved, because you're removing people who are paying you (or at least will pay assuming their credit cards are valid and they're out of comp time) and when money is involved things always take longer. You guys don't want lawsuits, and that's fair. At the same time, Tamriel is yours, and we wish you'd throw your weight around more.

My suggestion is to recruit player volunteers to search for bots for you and act as alert wardens. I don't mean give them any authority, but give them a system where when they report bots their report is elevated as a priority to Gamemasters.

I would gladly spend an hour of my playtime wading through Stonefalls and elsewhere reporting Jute farming and mob farming bots. I pretty much do already. If you recruit players who recognize bots and give their bot reporting a priority (no other reports from them would receive special priority), it might help streamline your system.

Excelsior,
-Sars

People would get the power hungry button, & besides, we the players already harass ZOS about the bots. Why would we need some silly person thinking hes special running around with a warden title?

babylon · May 2014

Reignskream wrote: »

People would get the power hungry button, & besides, we the players already harass ZOS about the bots. Why would we need some silly person thinking hes special running around with a warden title?

As OP suggested, they would have no power at all, just a hotline to the GMs so the GMs got to their location faster to smack down the bots.

I would suggest they get no title or anything, something like a title would alert the bots to their presence anyway (apart from most likely helping to create a power hungry attention-grabbing monster). They would just be regular players in every way, just could send a faster message to the GMs.

Reignskream · May 2014

I just don't see how its necessary because as soon as a person see's one bot they feel entitled to come create a thread about it in customer support forums, so why would we need those people anyways when ZOS already knows whats going on?

babylon · May 2014

Reignskream wrote: »

I just don't see how its necessary because as soon as a person see's one bot they feel entitled to come create a thread about it in customer support forums, so why would we need those people anyways when ZOS already knows whats going on?

Because our reports are never immediately acted upon. Having this system in place could mean a report gets to the GMs straight away and BAM! the bots are gone.

I see no reason to oppose this, the players get no powers at all. It's just a way to get faster action.

Reignskream · May 2014

babylon wrote: »

Reignskream wrote: »

I just don't see how its necessary because as soon as a person see's one bot they feel entitled to come create a thread about it in customer support forums, so why would we need those people anyways when ZOS already knows whats going on?

Because our reports are never immediately acted upon. Having this system in place could mean a report gets to the GMs straight away and BAM! the bots are gone.

I see no reason to oppose this, the players get no powers at all. It's just a way to get faster action.

If ZOS wanted to take stronger action against the bots it would have already happened, IMO implementing a feature like this would just be useless as they already know what is going on.

Just my 2cents though.

babylon · May 2014

Reignskream wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Reignskream wrote: »

I just don't see how its necessary because as soon as a person see's one bot they feel entitled to come create a thread about it in customer support forums, so why would we need those people anyways when ZOS already knows whats going on?

Because our reports are never immediately acted upon. Having this system in place could mean a report gets to the GMs straight away and BAM! the bots are gone.

I see no reason to oppose this, the players get no powers at all. It's just a way to get faster action.

If ZOS wanted to take stronger action against the bots it would have already happened, IMO implementing a feature like this would just be useless as they already know what is going on.

Just my 2cents though.

I think it would work. My two cents.

Reignskream · May 2014

I believe its another system ZOS will have to implement for their company, and they're already dealing with a bunch of crap already, no need to add more to the plate.

Zos knows about bots, if they wanted to take stronger action, it would of happened already.

WraithAzraiel · May 2014

Sign me up - give me a Bat Signal. I got this.

ElliottXO · May 2014

Priority reporting is not going to help if banning has no priority.

Skirmish840 · May 2014

I agree with the OP, but once you became known as a bot reporter it might be detrimental to your ability to group, people may become paranoid of you, bit like a cop walking the beat or cruising the street, everyone goes shhh "Foot in Mouth" is here, don't do or say anything that might even look like botting or you'll be reported.

If we were reporters how would our identity be kept secret, if you were given such responsibility you wouldn't just do it every now and again, well atleast I wouldn't, I'd become "The Bot Cop" Haha... I think I would enjoy seeing Bots burn so much I'd spend a few hours a day atleast hunting for them and I'd have my ear to the ground. I think you would need a character specifically for the job, you can't gain anything on him, he doesn't earn xp, he doesn't receive loot, he can't do quests, he's designed for hunting bots, that way you hop on him, do your damnest to clear some bots, then get on with your happy gaming day, finally being able to find some resources around Stonefalls.

Basil_oz · May 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sign me up - give me a Bat Signal. I got this.

I'm ready for this! I'm already sitting at my computer in my batman suit...

... which, on seconds thoughts, is a little embarrasing.... as I'm also at a public library.

PartygirlYolo · May 2014

Reignskream wrote: »

Zos knows about bots, if they wanted to take stronger action, it would of happened already.

That nails it. There are quite a few creative ideas for player supported anti bot systems in mmos that could be adapted (and many other mechanisms). Bots just dont cut profit...

Jitterbug · May 2014

Basil_oz wrote: »

Or who have a bat phone... or in this case, a bot phone!

to the botmobile!

Basil_oz · May 2014

Skirmish840 wrote: »

I agree with the OP, but once you became known as a bot reporter it might be detrimental to your ability to group, people may become paranoid of you, bit like a cop walking the beat or cruising the street, everyone goes shhh "Foot in Mouth" is here, don't do or say anything that might even look like botting or you'll be reported.

Don't you have that sense of feeling now when you are in a dungeon?

You see the bots camped around the boss spawn area. You need to finish the dungeon so you stand next to them in the vain hope to start flailing your weapons for a random hit in order to complete the dungeon.

Then another toon sidles up next to you, turns slightly your way and stares.....

,,,and you begin to think "are you reporting me, dude?!!"

Then you quickly emote a jumping jack or situp to try and prove that there is a human [albeit in a batman suit sitting in a public library] behind the toon they are staring at.

[Or perhaps they are looking at the oversized breasts on my toon... which is a little unusual as it is a male Nord!. Who knows!!!

]

Daniel.s.bromwichrwb17_ESO · May 2014

a better solution would just be to fix the respawn times on the gathering nodes, the problem is farm more complex than you make out OP.

Epona222 · May 2014

Basil_oz wrote: »

Skirmish840 wrote: »

I agree with the OP, but once you became known as a bot reporter it might be detrimental to your ability to group, people may become paranoid of you, bit like a cop walking the beat or cruising the street, everyone goes shhh "Foot in Mouth" is here, don't do or say anything that might even look like botting or you'll be reported.

Don't you have that sense of feeling now when you are in a dungeon?

You see the bots camped around the boss spawn area. You need to finish the dungeon so you stand next to them in the vain hope to start flailing your weapons for a random hit in order to complete the dungeon.

Then another toon sidles up next to you, turns slightly your way and stares.....

,,,and you begin to think "are you reporting me, dude?!!"

Then you quickly emote a jumping jack or situp to try and prove that there is a human [albeit in a batman suit sitting in a public library] behind the toon they are staring at.

[Or perhaps they are looking at the oversized breasts on my toon... which is a little unusual as it is a male Nord!. Who knows!!! ]

Great post, made me chuckle

I completely understand why people are paranoid about bots, but in the last couple of days I have been questing and someone used /say to tell everyone to leave the area, anyone that stayed after receiving their instruction to leave, they were going to report. I was in the bank, and someone said that anyone who didn't log out would be reported. I spend enough of my play-time in the bank doing inventory management as it is, without some jumped-up wannabe ESO bot cop telling everyone to log out or else. Given that these things probably verge on player harassment, I would make a plea for people to calm down a little. And a definite no to the suggestion made by the OP, because some people clearly cannot use common sense when trying to determine between players and bots.

shiva7663 · May 2014

Assign Zenimax executives to mandatory bot banning duty for an hour a day. It won't take too much of that kind of direct perspective on the size of the problem for policy to change for the better.

ballistic · May 2014

Consider:

- Automated anomaly detection (speed checks, transactions patterns, extreme sale prices in guild shop that still get purchasers, etc)
- Tools to help investigate and generate reports on individual players for your server-side management team including a list of all interactions they've had with other players (mail, guild shops transactions, etc).
- An account suspension system that can be provided patterns based on what has been detected to allow rapid purging of accounts used for botting as well as adding notes to player accounts where they appear to have purchased gold/mats on the black market (so adminstrators/GMs can tackle the consequences of the bots after they've been purged).

Players saw (and knew the importance of dealing with) the exploits, speedhacking and bots long before ZOS's server-side dev team seem to have. Some even provided solutions but had to wait 3+ weeks for ZOS to implement them (assuming they've been implemented yet!)

It shouldn't be up to the players to police the game. The intelligent approach is to automate the task of detection and refine the parameters of that based on any reports received (so that detection can be consistently improved easily, improve data analysis and give administrators more effective tools for identifying and detecting the problem.

murklor007neb18_ESO · May 2014

Player Wardens? Naah... Players cant really be trusted with powers.

HOWEVER it would be an easy matter for some GM guild organisation - just create a guild with 1 or more GMs and start inviting trusted players. They would have zero extra powers - or access to anything else except the guild chat/message of the day etc. They would simply be able to communicate with GMs in guild chat when they are online. Of course the players will have to understand that the guild is there for a purpose, not idle banter. If GMs dont like a player - guild kick. All the players have to do is report bot locations if the GM so desire. Or if there is a message of the day from the GM like "Numerous bots reported in Riften, please go check out XXX dungeon and we'll join if you see anything". Very simple, no obligations, GMs have full control over the guild. Such a guild can even be used for reported bug confirmations or just test things that require more people.

Simple as that. Guilds are the tools needed which we already have. Its only a matter of whether GMs use them.

ElliottXO · May 2014

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

Player Wardens? Naah... Players cant really be trusted with powers.

HOWEVER it would be an easy matter for some GM guild organisation - just create a guild with 1 or more GMs and start inviting trusted players. They would have zero extra powers - or access to anything else except the guild chat/message of the day etc. They would simply be able to communicate with GMs in guild chat when they are online. Of course the players will have to understand that the guild is there for a purpose, not idle banter. If GMs dont like a player - guild kick. All the players have to do is report bot locations if the GM so desire. Or if there is a message of the day from the GM like "Numerous bots reported in Riften, please go check out XXX dungeon and we'll join if you see anything". Very simple, no obligations, GMs have full control over the guild. Such a guild can even be used for reported bug confirmations or just test things that require more people.

Simple as that. Guilds are the tools needed which we already have. Its only a matter of whether GMs use them.

You didn't even read the OPs first post. He basically suggested the same, which is priority reporting.

Both solutions only work if ZOS would actually follow up any of those reports, but I think right now they don't.

AlliN · May 2014

Well, none of my 100 entries to my ignore list dissapeared since last 3 weeks, 20 of them being bots actively killed by GM in dungeons. I can still whisp those botter accounts, so, I doubt they do anything with the accounts.

Same case with 3 other people from my guild, 100 entries, none gone. So, that's 400 entries (sure some duplicates, yes) that not EVEN ONE vanished.

I bet they are removing characters, and that's not really a solution to anything.

I like the Idea that OP came up with, I really do - problem is, they have to man up and start banning acounts, becasue all they say is they do, but factual evidence shows they are not, or at least not nearly enough.

Sariias · May 2014

I dunno guys, who figured out that a banned account doesn't show up on an ignore list? A deleted account, sure, but a banned account might not be removed since it still exists, it's just banned. Or maybe ESO Gamemasters are forced to suspend for certain durations first before the final banhammer.

I've been removing a few names every night off my ignore list to ignore the new zone spammers, and so far none of the accounts I've un-ignored have come back to spam zone chat and get ignored again.

I know World of Warcraft purposely stalled the banned on their goldfarmers and bots because they wanted to observe them first and see if they can learn as much as they can, which led to the 10K account cullings that came later. The WoW bots weren't nearly as prevalent as they are in ESO though. I've never seen anything this bad. We have no idea what strategies and bureaucracies are involved that Zenimax Gamemasters must follow- which I'm sure are bothersome because again, a paid subscription is involved.

I'm just telling Zenimax that we are willing to help out as much as we can, without giving players the opportunity to abuse authority or get an ego about it.

Vanathi · May 2014

I agree with this. And, no, it would not become detrimental to your grouping ability. I was an in game support type person for another company once upon a time. You create a character that is separate from your account and are forbidden from revealing your identity. Simple.

Phantax · May 2014

babylon wrote: »

I agree with this suggestion - the only way I would support player "wardens" or somesuch is if the players weren't given any powers at all to do anything, but they were given some kind of "speed dial" to GMs so they could contact a GM quickly and get that GM to dispatch and ban the bots quickly.

Maybe hook the "player wardens" up with a messenger program and a GM on the other end ready to come to their location when called upon.

Agreed !

Skirmish840 · May 2014

Don't you have that sense of feeling now when you are in a dungeon?

Absolutely Basil