Locking Individual Accounts vs An Entire Rollback

Hamfast · April 16

imaslowlearner wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This sucks big time compared to the small suck that is a one day event extension and style page grant.

You can't say the 100k people won't be affected of the PTS bug, people have already said that the gold that was traded and items that were gifted have remained on the NA server. You are basically saying you trust zos to track down the illegitimate items that I'm sure are being laundered through guild traders while the servers are still up. The people complaining about progress on the forums have mostly mentioned tickets, endeavors, and style pages. All of which can be handed out like candy if zos chose to.

I would sort of agree with you, and while I know exactly where Code65536 got his numbers (because he admitted it in his post) I will use them as well...

1K folks logged on to the PTS for whatever reason, of that 500 Deleted and/or created new characters (maxed out with all the goodies) they then logged on to the PC NA server and saw the problem...

let's say 1 in 5 decided to exploit this windfall... that's 100....

Those that decided to send out gifts are using an obvious exploit and should be banned totally... 100 accounts Banned
Those that got the gifts and decided to use them have gained from an obvious exploit and should also be banned... 500 accounts? Banned
Those that got the gifts and reported it, chose not to use the items/gold should be thanked and their accounts made whole (exploited items removed)

I want to point out that anyone that saw the issue and reported it should be thanked (the other 400 folks in this example) or did nothing with the ill-gotten booty should also be made whole, any characters deleted needs to be restored and so on.

I would say that you can't convince me that there are folks who would innocently see this exploit as a windfall and share the wealth to strangers... but I have seen the news IRL...

The rest of us need to log into our accounts and be thankful we did not get mail from those folks that tried to use this exploit to profit or as a windfall to be shared.

Seraphayel · April 16

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I predicted multiple times that they would do a full server rollback because the damage had already been done with the template characters' gold and items already in full circulation; a full server rollback would have been much less of a headache for everybody to deal with, and would have been the smarter choice. It would have resulted in something far more fair for everyone involved, with the extension of the event being basically the only thing they need to do to achieve that.

I was so confident that they would do it, because it would be insane to instead try to isolate individual incidents.

Turns out, I misjudged their ability to make smart choices.

Now assuming that they fix everything and I can log in on April 19th 9:30am, they will have to compensate me 12 Event Tickets, ~ 800 Seals of Endeavor, 476 Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, 476 Writ rewards, and 4 days worth of daily rewards for this to be fair in any way, shape, or form, and how do you think they will handle handing those Jubilee boxes out?

Compensating 10 instead of 10.000 players is way easier to do (numbers are made up). Rolling back an entire server would have been a nightmare yesterday when they detected the issue, rolling back an entire server now is completely out of question. There‘s no reason to punish 99,9% of the playerbase for a mistake that happened to 0,01%.

dk_dunkirk · April 16

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

soulreaper1213 wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

imaslowlearner wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This sucks big time compared to the small suck that is a one day event extension and style page grant.

For the people affected, this is definitely worse than a server-wide rollback, which would be much faster and cleaner.

But the problem is a server-wide rollback is server-wide.

And if there were, say, 100K people who logged onto NA last night and only 1K who logged onto PTS (pulling numbers out of my derriere), then maybe screwing over all 100K (many of whom probably don't even know what the PTS even is; try explaining to them why they were forced to lose 9 hours of progress) to make things not quite as bad for the 1K isn't a great solution.

You can't say the 100k people won't be affected of the PTS bug, people have already said that the gold that was traded and items that were gifted have remained on the NA server. You are basically saying you trust zos to track down the illegitimate items that I'm sure are being laundered through guild traders while the servers are still up. The people complaining about progress on the forums have mostly mentioned tickets, endeavors, and style pages. All of which can be handed out like candy if zos chose to.

Absolutely I am. Everything that happens is logged. Every item has a unique identifier we can't see. They absolutely know where every single item came from, and can track it all the way through to its consumption or decon.

That is just incorrect, otherwise gold sellers would not be as prevalent as they are.

I have literally no idea how your response relates to mine. My concept of "gold sellers" would involve Crowns, and I can't see what your point is. Scratching my head, but I'd like to understand.

EDIT: Wait, you're just saying that each gold piece is "anonymous," right? I would stipulate that. But I don't think that matters at all in this discussion.

You have illegal websites that sell gold to players for IRL $ for many games.

PC NA ESO has billions in gold that are listed as being for sale from multiple sellers.

This would suggest that either the gold selling sites are scams, ZOS cannot contain them very well, or ZOS chooses not to expend the effort to contain them.

That has nothing to do with the problem at hand. That's all gold generated within game, being moved around in the game. We're talking about possibly money generated in the PTS being disseminated in the live server. I think that ZOS can track that. If someone exploited the situation to bring the billion gold you get for free on the PTS over to the live server, they only had a couple of hours to launder it, and you could mostly follow that trail, and reclaim it.

Araneae6537 · April 16

I think people are assuming they know more than they really do to say what ZOS should or should not have done. Could the corruption between servers have corrupted a recent save state to make a rollback untenable? I have no idea.

I think how much gold and other items introduced is being somewhat exaggerated, or isn’t so much relative to the economy as a whole (I realize that I am now making assumptions). Not that there shouldn’t be consequences for players who tried to take advantage of the situation.

So long as ZOS can make things right quickly for the many players who didn’t do anything wrong, then I think everything will be alright.

I absolutely empathize with the frustration, disappointment, and concern of those currently locked out of their accounts and I hope that this is resolved quickly and that ZOS can make up for your missed time and event rewards to the full extent possible! Being locked out of your account for a time is bad enough on its own.

Thank you, @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin for keeping us updated as much as possible!

ADarklore · April 16

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I predicted multiple times that they would do a full server rollback because the damage had already been done with the template characters' gold and items already in full circulation; a full server rollback would have been much less of a headache for everybody to deal with, and would have been the smarter choice. It would have resulted in something far more fair for everyone involved, with the extension of the event being basically the only thing they need to do to achieve that.

I was so confident that they would do it, because it would be insane to instead try to isolate individual incidents.

Turns out, I misjudged their ability to make smart choices.

Now assuming that they fix everything and I can log in on April 19th 9:30am, they will have to compensate me 12 Event Tickets, ~ 800 Seals of Endeavor, 476 Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, 476 Writ rewards, and 4 days worth of daily rewards for this to be fair in any way, shape, or form, and how do you think they will handle handing those Jubilee boxes out?

Wait, WHAT? So something impacting 1% or less of the players would create less headache in impacting 99% of players? Because NO, I don't want to have to re-grind all the time I spent yesterday and I doubt anyone else wants to lose all their items that they were finally able to acquire- just so 1% of the players had it easier. NO THANKS!

GamerKat6823 · April 16

My concern about not doing the rollback is what has and will happen to the NA economy, as well as the fact that ALL the banned accounts - guilty of exploits or not - have to reset their ESO+.

On the first count, I've already looked at my TTC and it's a hot stinking mess. I have to price items for my guild's prizes in our raffles and right now? That's impossible and will be until the market corrects from the damage the exploiters did. Trader flip today is going to be an absolute nightmare, as many of these locked accounts may be guild officers who handle their guild's bids.

On the second item, all these folks with their ESO+ suspended 1) is a hell of a PR disaster and 2) is going to cost ZoS money, because many of these people may not bother renewing.

Also many of the people who stream, make videos, make addons, etc. are hit by the lockout. That's damage to the community.

Yes, a rollback may have ticked off people. There may have been people who got style pages and such. Do the rollback, let people put in tickets for anything major like a style page, and cut the exploiters off at the knees while saving the economy.

I'm not even sure whether I should get in game today, given what's been going on. What am I risking the possibility of losing if I log in? I'm sure that's a question running through a lot of people's minds today.

Sakiri · April 16

Dude, next to nothing of mine has sold since the event went live, much less the pts thing.

I don't sell materials. I sell patterns and motifs.....

DerAlleinTiger · April 16

ADarklore wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I predicted multiple times that they would do a full server rollback because the damage had already been done with the template characters' gold and items already in full circulation; a full server rollback would have been much less of a headache for everybody to deal with, and would have been the smarter choice. It would have resulted in something far more fair for everyone involved, with the extension of the event being basically the only thing they need to do to achieve that.

I was so confident that they would do it, because it would be insane to instead try to isolate individual incidents.

Turns out, I misjudged their ability to make smart choices.

Now assuming that they fix everything and I can log in on April 19th 9:30am, they will have to compensate me 12 Event Tickets, ~ 800 Seals of Endeavor, 476 Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, 476 Writ rewards, and 4 days worth of daily rewards for this to be fair in any way, shape, or form, and how do you think they will handle handing those Jubilee boxes out?

Wait, WHAT? So something impacting 1% or less of the players would create less headache in impacting 99% of players? Because NO, I don't want to have to re-grind all the time I spent yesterday and I doubt anyone else wants to lose all their items that they were finally able to acquire- just so 1% of the players had it easier. NO THANKS!

Yes, actually, it would be easier because you're just looking at raw numbers instead of what's actually involved. Yes, rolling back the entire server and extended the event by a couple days would be *much, much easier* than going through hundreds, if not thousands, of accounts individually to determine what kinds of items they might have lost (people who didn't touch PTS aren't the only people who are losing rare items, you know), transactions they made, what mail they may or may not have lost and what contents that mail may or may not have had (including potentially millions in legitimately-earned and traded gold or items equivalent to it), characters they may or may not have lost, the items on those characters which may or may not be legitimate... Nevermind the nightmare of unraveling things if someone who didn't touch the PTS sent in-game gifts to someone who did - not just expensive gold-bought items or high-value drops but potentially crown gifts too, as in real world money. What happens there? Realistically, ZOS is going to find some way to get those purchases back... but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy to do.

Then moving on from that you have all the people affected by the lock-outs who didn't participate in the PTS themselves. Nevermind the economy and numbers people keep pulling out of their asses "99.9% versus 0.01%?" Yeah, where'd you get that number? 1000 versus 1 or 100 versus 1? Again, where are those coming from? Putting aside entirely made-up numbers that just so happen to support that person's particular argument - imagine that - and even the in-game event stuff (which is still quite relevant) there are people who are losing out on guild events, progression runs, runs at getting emperor, PvP campaigns because half of their team has just been snapped out of existence on live for the rest of the week, or their team leads or event runners are now gone for the same timeframe. Yes, the handful of groups that made successful progression runs in that half a day are going to be miffed. The progression groups that now can't even make attempts for multiple days are probably more miffed and likely higher in number at this point.

All of that, versus the game being reset to the morning and the event extended by a day or two. Yes. Yes, actually, affecting the whole server, in this particular case, would have been significantly easier and less of a headache on just about everyone. Certainly, at least, the players the support staff who have to deal with all of the tickets now. Absolute worst case, they could have adjusted the way the style pages drop so those handful of people who got a drop in that half a day could get them again and for everyone else it's just a 'sorry we screwed up' offering. Done and done. No one's locked out for days at a time (without good reason). No one has to argue over how much gold was or wasn't injected into the economy and how much it will or will not affect things. No one has to worry about losing crowns - actual, real money at that point - because they sent a gift to the wrong friend on the wrong day. Characters would naturally be restored just as they were. It'd be an annoyance, but everyone would still be playing and no one's events, dungeons, trials, and campaigns would be interrupted.

HatchetHaro · April 16

ADarklore wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I predicted multiple times that they would do a full server rollback because the damage had already been done with the template characters' gold and items already in full circulation; a full server rollback would have been much less of a headache for everybody to deal with, and would have been the smarter choice. It would have resulted in something far more fair for everyone involved, with the extension of the event being basically the only thing they need to do to achieve that.

I was so confident that they would do it, because it would be insane to instead try to isolate individual incidents.

Turns out, I misjudged their ability to make smart choices.

Now assuming that they fix everything and I can log in on April 19th 9:30am, they will have to compensate me 12 Event Tickets, ~ 800 Seals of Endeavor, 476 Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, 476 Writ rewards, and 4 days worth of daily rewards for this to be fair in any way, shape, or form, and how do you think they will handle handing those Jubilee boxes out?

Wait, WHAT? So something impacting 1% or less of the players would create less headache in impacting 99% of players? Because NO, I don't want to have to re-grind all the time I spent yesterday and I doubt anyone else wants to lose all their items that they were finally able to acquire- just so 1% of the players had it easier. NO THANKS!

Seraphayel wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I predicted multiple times that they would do a full server rollback because the damage had already been done with the template characters' gold and items already in full circulation; a full server rollback would have been much less of a headache for everybody to deal with, and would have been the smarter choice. It would have resulted in something far more fair for everyone involved, with the extension of the event being basically the only thing they need to do to achieve that.

I was so confident that they would do it, because it would be insane to instead try to isolate individual incidents.

Turns out, I misjudged their ability to make smart choices.

Now assuming that they fix everything and I can log in on April 19th 9:30am, they will have to compensate me 12 Event Tickets, ~ 800 Seals of Endeavor, 476 Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, 476 Writ rewards, and 4 days worth of daily rewards for this to be fair in any way, shape, or form, and how do you think they will handle handing those Jubilee boxes out?

Compensating 10 instead of 10.000 players is way easier to do (numbers are made up). Rolling back an entire server would have been a nightmare yesterday when they detected the issue, rolling back an entire server now is completely out of question. There‘s no reason to punish 99,9% of the playerbase for a mistake that happened to 0,01%.

My point is that 1. the event could have been extended and 2. the event style pages could have been audited and granted back to players retroactively (or made available at the Impressario for purchase for Event Tickets) without the rest of the rewards for everyone being thrown too far out of whack. The server would have been back up much quicker as well.

Now that individual accounts are the ones being suspended for several days instead, ZOS now has to deal with auditing only these affected players and finding ways to restore multiple days worth of Event Tickets, Seals of Endeavors, Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, Writ rewards, and Daily Rewards, etc. to them.

ZOS_Kevin · April 16

Just wanted to follow up here with our latest update. You can find that linked here.

Wildberryjack · April 16

Really we don't care about the PTS right now. We're more concerned with being able to just get into the live game and also concerned about all the gold and items players still have in the live game. Just roll it all back and be done with.

sarahthes · April 16

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Really we don't care about the PTS right now. We're more concerned with being able to just get into the live game and also concerned about all the gold and items players still have in the live game. Just roll it all back and be done with.

As soon as they reopened live, it became too late to do a full rollback.