Way of fire need nerf

S0rwizard · March 5

El_Borracho wrote: »

I feel like blaming deaths on a set like Way of Fire is an excuse for players to avoid improving their own game. You still have to hit a player with WoF, or Poisonous Serpent, or Hrothgar, or Masters DW, or whatever. This isn't the old Ravager days when you hit deadly cloak and chased someone until they died. Or even the old Zaan + Elf Bane = dead setup.

If WoF was blasting you for 10K a hit, sure. But its not.

WoF in my recap was about 50K+ in cyrofor idk how many ticks... it doens't matter how much hurt the point is how easy is to let this set cook if u are not a templar/warden that can cleanse himself...

in duel testing i have easly 80-90K recap dmg gust from spamming 1 skill and keep it up for 20sec

ItsNotLiving · March 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

S0rwizard wrote: »

Dots in pvp just hurt to much and give too much pressure...

No. Stop nerfing pressure damage.

"Tekken or Smash but with HoTs and spammable burst heals" is what ESO would be without pressure.

The answer is simple nerf the procs that are over performing and then buff class dots. Pressure should come from skills not procs, especially from free skills like Vat Destro and light attack spam *cough* *cough* Relequen *cough* *cough*

Bushido2513 · March 5

El_Borracho wrote: »

I feel like blaming deaths on a set like Way of Fire is an excuse for players to avoid improving their own game. You still have to hit a player with WoF, or Poisonous Serpent, or Hrothgar, or Masters DW, or whatever. This isn't the old Ravager days when you hit deadly cloak and chased someone until they died. Or even the old Zaan + Elf Bane = dead setup.

If WoF was blasting you for 10K a hit, sure. But its not.

Improving your game is fine but having to improve your game against players that will still have equal power to you while not improving their game feels less rewarding.

I'm not against procs but procs need a good limiting condition so that the wearer has to make choices and some meaningful sacrifice to gain some power.

Way of fire is written too generically so that it works well with other existing proc sets and skill lines. A small change would bring it in line but not kill it.

El_Borracho · March 5

@Bushido2513 WoF does force you to make a choice. You choose 1096 extra stamina for a mediocre damage proc every 2 seconds. That's not that much stamina in exchange for average damage. That is over a flat damage increase, penetration, armor, health, etc. This has been the choice all along with all proc sets. Morag Tong, Hrothgar, Dark Convergence, etc.

In OP's argument, someone has to choose to run Maarselok (2 pieces), Master's DW (2 pieces), Vateshran staff (2 pieces), and WoF (5 pieces). With that setup, you can't run another 5 piece as you only have 3 slots left. So you are probably running a Trainee chest, maybe a mythic, and another 1 piece. You are forgoing the option of running another strong set like Rallying Cry. Which means you are probably a glass cannon, unless you have some skill and experience in PVP. Oh, the irony.

Just because something is "meta" doesn't mean its invincible. Just as many people who run it die on the regular too. I don't run it because it doesn't work that well on an Arcanist and I have better setups for a DK and Nightblade. But there will always be a "meta" so fighting to constantly nerf it is pointless. Especially because we are at the current "WoF meta" because everything else that was useful over the last few years has been nerfed.

No more nerfs. Don't like WoF, Maarselok, Masters weapons, Vateshran staff, etc.? Buff other sets as the counter. Up damage instead of forcing the high health tank play. PVP is about killing and dying not beating each other with pool noodles.

@S0rwizard, resorting to death recaps to prove WoF does 50K damage?

Bushido2513 · March 5

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Bushido2513 WoF does force you to make a choice. You choose 1096 extra stamina for a mediocre damage proc every 2 seconds. That's not that much stamina in exchange for average damage. That is over a flat damage increase, penetration, armor, health, etc. This has been the choice all along with all proc sets. Morag Tong, Hrothgar, Dark Convergence, etc.

In OP's argument, someone has to choose to run Maarselok (2 pieces), Master's DW (2 pieces), Vateshran staff (2 pieces), and WoF (5 pieces). With that setup, you can't run another 5 piece as you only have 3 slots left. So you are probably running a Trainee chest, maybe a mythic, and another 1 piece. You are forgoing the option of running another strong set like Rallying Cry. Which means you are probably a glass cannon, unless you have some skill and experience in PVP. Oh, the irony.

Just because something is "meta" doesn't mean its invincible. Just as many people who run it die on the regular too. I don't run it because it doesn't work that well on an Arcanist and I have better setups for a DK and Nightblade. But there will always be a "meta" so fighting to constantly nerf it is pointless. Especially because we are at the current "WoF meta" because everything else that was useful over the last few years has been nerfed.

No more nerfs. Don't like WoF, Maarselok, Masters weapons, Vateshran staff, etc.? Buff other sets as the counter. Up damage instead of forcing the high health tank play. PVP is about killing and dying not beating each other with pool noodles.

@S0rwizard, resorting to death recaps to prove WoF does 50K damage?

@El_Borracho

Sorry I wasn't more clear. By choice I mean to have to do or take into account something you might not already do in a significant way.

Yes with way of fire you have to give up stats from another set but every build requires that so that's even. What were talking about is the ease of use and the synergy of what you gain for that price.

This is not to say that I'm against synergy. I'm fine with synergy between sets but when you have synergy which adds more power then that needs to be taken into account for the power budget of the build when all put together.

So with way of fire you get synergy with other sets through a ridiculously easy proc condition and that's where I'm saying there should be controls in place.

It's the same reason they put in a delay between procs in some cases because some interactions provided too much damage in a certain window.

Way of fire is by no means the most op set in the game at all. I'm simply saying that proc conditions are too easy to meet especially when you factor in set synergy.

So this is different from say the issue with rallying cry where the proc has mildly more requirement including a buff tiler but that gives too much density in what it offers.

I do understand that way of fire users do give up defense and healing however I would counter that they are getting too much ease of access on offensive pressure which more than makes up for that.

I understand people want to get out of the tank Meta but nerfing way of fire for me isn't about trying to take away damage, it's just about not running into as many people that deal good damage with two buttons.

Tank Meta is off putting but so is Vate, rending, marselok on several classes as their main damage.

El_Borracho · March 5

@Bushido2513, that's a fair and very reasonable opinion. And one I agree with for the most part.

I just think that nerfing or changing a set like Way of Fire continues the downward trajectory of PVP. Nobody was using WoF in PVP until many, many other sets and even some classes were nerfed. I've been playing since Morrowind. Way of Fire wasn't even a meme set then. In fact, I remember players thinking it might be a PVE tank set (it wasn't) because it had no place in the game at the time, PVE or PVP.

Its come to the point that players are complaining about a set that, at best, puts out 3K-ish damage every 2 seconds, on paper, before taking into account player resistances and armor. That's sad. Heck, I'm using Hrothgar on an Arc, a set that was dead, because damage sources are scarce

I would prefer to see other trash sets get a boost. Like Viper's Sting, Poisonous Serpent, or even Sheer Venom. Not saying we have to go back to the Elf Bane + Zaan flamethrower, but it would give more options and maybe crack the tank meta

Bushido2513 · March 6

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Bushido2513, that's a fair and very reasonable opinion. And one I agree with for the most part.

I just think that nerfing or changing a set like Way of Fire continues the downward trajectory of PVP. Nobody was using WoF in PVP until many, many other sets and even some classes were nerfed. I've been playing since Morrowind. Way of Fire wasn't even a meme set then. In fact, I remember players thinking it might be a PVE tank set (it wasn't) because it had no place in the game at the time, PVE or PVP.

Its come to the point that players are complaining about a set that, at best, puts out 3K-ish damage every 2 seconds, on paper, before taking into account player resistances and armor. That's sad. Heck, I'm using Hrothgar on an Arc, a set that was dead, because damage sources are scarce

I would prefer to see other trash sets get a boost. Like Viper's Sting, Poisonous Serpent, or even Sheer Venom. Not saying we have to go back to the Elf Bane + Zaan flamethrower, but it would give more options and maybe crack the tank meta

@El_Borracho

I agree that overall it's getting worse not better in regards to actually being able to kill a competent player and I can agree with revamping old sets to at least possibly give some kind of diversity.

I'd actually be willing to give way of fire or another set more damage if they would just make the requirements more interesting to promote the risk/creativity/reward parts of the game.

The thing about improving other sets though is that it's going to be hard to do so without just moving the target to the next meta build. Everything is so similar in the game that it's hard to have any variety without being instantly penalized. But I don't want to have procs be similar but just on other sets. We need sets that encourage strength in a variety of styles without making any one of them too op. Definitely not as easy to do as it is to write I'm sure.

Miracle19 · March 6

Arcanasx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay... In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.

It's incredible how the players crying that damage procs are "no skill" are totally fine with burst heals that enable you to make the dumbest mistake imaginable, drop into execute range, then be saved by pressing one button. One button they can spam indefinitely while blocking, no less. Behold, skilled PvP.

Then there's something like Rallying Cry, which is even more ubiquitous than MDW, invalidates most other available back bar sets, completely brainless to use and keep up, but is apparently totally fine because it's not on death recaps.

Its silly because while these players will accuse others of having their damage "carried" for them, they never seem to consider that their survivability sets and stats may be carrying their survivability for them too.

If its true that "damage sets do your damage for you, which then allows you to invest into defenses elsewhere", then it would also be true that "defensive sets can help carry your defenses for you, which then allows you to invest into damage elsewhere" as well.

Yet most of the complaints are against sets that do more to help end stalemates, rather than prolong it...Simply because these kinds of players tend to notice and focus on the sets that help with damage output, which shows up on their death recaps (and metrics), rather than the sets that might allow another player to help them survive long enough to find a window of opportunity to eventually secure a kill, but are omitted from the death recaps.

Absolutely. Defensive sets are far more of a problem than offensive. Rallying cry, wretched vitality etc allow me/anyone using them to go full offensive with 6-7k WD builds self buffed and no draw backs in terms of survivability. It's far easier to use a defensive proc and invest into offense than the latter.

However, IMO neither are gamebreaking problems, they simply make ESO unique.

DrNukenstein · March 8

They should totally remove the weapon dot synergies some procs have.

It's mega low effort afk gaming, and appears to be more rewarding than it should be. Similar to how some other overtuned easy mode things were brought in line over the years.

xylena_lazarow · March 9

DrNukenstein wrote: »

They should totally remove the weapon dot synergies some procs have. It's mega low effort afk gaming, and appears to be more rewarding than it should be. Similar to how some other overtuned easy mode things were brought in line over the years.

If you're dying to "afk dots" that's on you, not the game.

Maybe I'll post a CMX analysis later showing just how weak those "my only dps is mdw" builds are.

Aldoss · March 10

The argument for me isn't "do people die to this dot?" but rather "does this set contribute to the benefit of the combat experience for all players?".

I'd say there's an argument to be made that allowing WoF to tick on every dot tick is lazy af and that, plus the synergy with MDW contributes to people choosing high health, high def builds with these two sets that allow them to do alright damage.

I know when I play against someone crutching on these two sets because the duel is almost always a stalemate. Their dmg can't overpower my healing and their def counters my offense.

You might say "that's balance", but the moment two people on 40k hp builds with these two sets rolls along, now you have compounding effect. Player 1 might stay engaged with you. Player 2 hits rending once and moves along, but player 3 now has to manage double the pressure from someone who entered the battle for 1 gcd and then moved along.

I'd honestly even be fine with a buff to WoF dmg as long as it came with the new qualifier of "weapon skill direct dmg" as the proc.

Asylum staff will likely see a lot of use next patch and, as of right now, I think I'm fine with it because that staff doesn't allow someone to afk pressure someone in battle, aside from the burning dot. Maybe I'll eat these words next week, we'll see.

xylena_lazarow · March 11

Aldoss wrote: »

afk pressure someone in battle

Is it ok to afk heal in battle?

If you want to make that argument then let's delete both dots and hots and have a completely different game.

Aldoss · March 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

afk pressure someone in battle

Is it ok to afk heal in battle?

If you want to make that argument then let's delete both dots and hots and have a completely different game.

Show me a heal set that procs a heal with equally afk-esque conditions as WoF and I'll concede...

The closest thing that comes to it is Twilight Remedy and there's a reason why you don't see many healers using trial sets like that in Cyro.

Healing is totally overtuned, and I truly think the fun of Cyro would be greatly increased by ZOS limiting hot stacking, but let's stick to comparing sets to sets and not sets to skills.

Try this: take WoF's 5th piece verbiage, but change "deal damage with a weapon" to "heal with a weapon" and change the fire damage to extra healing. Would you say that the set is balanced and provides a meaningful and beneficial impact on the combat of this game?

gonzogp · March 11

Replying to the post above, ritemaster set or whatever it’s called. Heal someone and it shoots a healing beam to them that heals anyone it touches. Pretty cheesy in cyro. Some groups using this you can’t even kill with siege

DrNukenstein · March 11

Not even talking about the masters dw godtanks.

I'm talking about the degenerate glass cannon poison injection builds that tag you with a PI from down town and 2+ procs that will trigger off of the dot, then move on.

That is lazy game play should get taken away. MDW+Way of fire in a vaccuum and on tanks isn't nearly as obnoxious.

xylena_lazarow · March 11

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'm talking about the degenerate glass cannon poison injection builds that tag you with a PI from down town and 2+ procs that will trigger off of the dot, then move on.

This is once again a consequence of the idiotic u35 dot rework that destroyed class sticky dots forcing us to use proc sets, while the 20sec timer makes certain proc sets (mostly the one where the hunger pops out from poison arrow) much more obnoxious than they should be, plus burst procs are a completely different beast from pressure procs.

DrNukenstein · March 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is once again a consequence of the idiotic u35 dot rework that destroyed class sticky dots forcing us to use proc sets, while the 20sec timer makes certain proc sets (mostly the one where the hunger pops out from poison arrow) much more obnoxious than they should be, plus burst procs are a completely different beast from pressure procs.

Yeah I love my burst procs. You can fit one instant one and as many delayed as you can fit on your build into one GCD (though there are some unique exceptions).

It's a fun meme, and it often blows people up immediately as long as you deliver the combo up close. And this is totally the best patch to try that out if you have never attempted a multi-proc apocalypse build.

I'd rather be on the receiving end of my own cheese than, THAT cheese which makes it unsafe to do anything fun for 20 seconds. It's especially unfun when you know that all it is is one poison injection delivered from complete safety with no risk of retaliation.

Aldoss · March 11

gonzogp wrote: »

Replying to the post above, ritemaster set or whatever it’s called. Heal someone and it shoots a healing beam to them that heals anyone it touches. Pretty cheesy in cyro. Some groups using this you can’t even kill with siege

I've seen this set once in Cyro in the last two weeks. Have you noticed it more?

I'm not sure if this set meets the qualifications of "afk" healing because the tether requires the proccer to be within range of the fight. I'd classify that as "actively engaged". Would you not?

Whereas, someone uses 1 weapon dot skill and moves along, no longer actively engaged in the fight, but you need to deal with 10 extra ticks of WoF because of it.

DrNukenstein · March 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is once again a consequence of the idiotic u35 dot rework that destroyed class sticky dots forcing us to use proc sets, while the 20sec timer makes certain proc sets (mostly the one where the hunger pops out from poison arrow) much more obnoxious than they should be, plus burst procs are a completely different beast from pressure procs.

Also to further explain why this is in fact low effort AFK gaming: Most of the possible set ups do incentivize the user tagging exactly one person with poison injection every 20 seconds since most of the procs can't trigger on multiple targets between cool downs.

Straight up, removing the weapon DOT synergy would lead to more engaging gameplay for both sides of the argument.

gonzogp · March 11

Aldoss wrote: »

gonzogp wrote: »

Replying to the post above, ritemaster set or whatever it’s called. Heal someone and it shoots a healing beam to them that heals anyone it touches. Pretty cheesy in cyro. Some groups using this you can’t even kill with siege

I've seen this set once in Cyro in the last two weeks. Have you noticed it more?

I'm not sure if this set meets the qualifications of "afk" healing because the tether requires the proccer to be within range of the fight. I'd classify that as "actively engaged". Would you not?

Whereas, someone uses 1 weapon dot skill and moves along, no longer actively engaged in the fight, but you need to deal with 10 extra ticks of WoF because of it.

Yea I see it often enough on Ps NA. It’s not super common it’s usually the same few groups cheesing it. They’ll run around with 2-3 arcanist and 2-3 wardens. All tank builds. Sometimes they’ll have a sorc or nb with them to help with damage. But usually the 4-6 tanks will pile on enough dps to be annoying to any non tank build. They’ll usually just post up on resources and farm people that don’t know any better. Most people will just avoid them. Even seen them take it into IRC during MYM which was extra annoying because they’re even harder to kill with out siege available. From the tooltip it doesn’t look like it’d be as big a problem but combined with arcanists and wardens skills and built right it’s hard to even resource drain them and kill
Edit- as for the afk part, the req to proc it is any direct heal, wardens can do it with a light/heavy attk and lotus blossom, last for a decent time and has a low downtime.

Bushido2513 · March 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

afk pressure someone in battle

Is it ok to afk heal in battle?

If you want to make that argument then let's delete both dots and hots and have a completely different game.

Actually I can present a situation where this was a real problem in the game and then nerfed due to complaints. Maras balm and crimson twilight. Maras balm was basically an inversion of the fire set where everything individual players did turned into a potential heal for you every second or so without you doing anything.

So in a sense we can say that set and forget damage or healing with little or no cooldown can be an issue.

Turtle_Bot · March 12

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

afk pressure someone in battle

Is it ok to afk heal in battle?

If you want to make that argument then let's delete both dots and hots and have a completely different game.

Actually I can present a situation where this was a real problem in the game and then nerfed due to complaints. Maras balm and crimson twilight. Maras balm was basically an inversion of the fire set where everything individual players did turned into a potential heal for you every second or so without you doing anything.

So in a sense we can say that set and forget damage or healing with little or no cooldown can be an issue.

Was actually going to mention Mara's as well. None of these pressure sets were considered overpowered or even raising an eyebrow before Mara's Balm got heavily nerfed. In fact many wanted these sets to deal MORE damage to push through MB.

That set (Mara's) got nerfed (and rightfully so) for being too strong as a defensive set, but it could have been left a little better than what it currently is. It's not a bad set by any means, but it's definitely fallen off a lot, practically never see it anymore (probably why the proc DoT meta has taken off so hard).