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Way of fire need nerf
Idk u guys but i keep dieing because of this set... is literraly too cheese... u just keep up twin slash... i have 40-50k in my recap.
U can say u can run from it... agree... i am a sorc i streak but the other guy is a sorc too! destroy the combo MDW, way of fire, vetershan staff maarselok.
Nerf to MDW is good but not enough.
Dots in pvp just hurt to much and give too much pressure...
U can say u can run from it... agree... i am a sorc i streak but the other guy is a sorc too! destroy the combo MDW, way of fire, vetershan staff maarselok.
Nerf to MDW is good but not enough.
Dots in pvp just hurt to much and give too much pressure...
8
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Well the problem is really the interaction with other sets and class abilities. Masters is getting a nerf in the next patch though it's really just being brought in line with other sets that are like it.
Pressure buildsIdk u guys but i keep dieing because of this set... is literraly too cheese... u just keep up twin slash... i have 40-50k in my recap.
U can say u can run from it... agree... i am a sorc i streak but the other guy is a sorc too! destroy the combo MDW, way of fire, vetershan staff maarselok.
Nerf to MDW is good but not enough.
Dots in pvp just hurt to much and give too much pressure...
Well the problem is really the interaction with other sets and class abilities. Masters is getting a nerf in the next patch though it's really just being brought in line with other sets that are like it.
I main sorc so I'll say you do to some degree just need to build for the high damage in pvp by either gaining more resistance, maneuverability, damage, etc. It's up to you as to what feels right.
If your build is decent and you practice enough you can usually either win the fight or escape in a 1v1. Outnumbered, ganked, etc is just another thing unto itself.0 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke12 -
Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
Kind of like how stat scaling DoT abilities during the Scalebreaker DoT meta basically did all the work for you after applying a few of them from a distance?Edited by Arcanasx on February 2, 2024 12:42AM1 -
Remiem✭✭✭Pic related:This set is pretty much the poison version of WoF, same base tooltip, same scaling, same cooldown. Look at its proc condition and compare it to WoF.
The problem with WoF is its proc condition, any weapon damage instance procs it so people use it with rending slashes and it acts as one of the strongest (pseudo-)dots in the game, only direct weapon damage should proc it.Balanced by people with no prior gamedev experience, couldn't fix performance issues in a decade, can't code a real matchmaking algorithm to save their lives, more maintenance downtime than all the other MMOs put together, more bugs introduced than bugs fixed every big patch, same stagnant combat for years.
Done with Elder Joke Online: 2 seconds of input delay on "70" ping edition.7 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
Some sets need to be tuned sure but generally there's no reason proc damage is an issue when scaled properly. The sets do make you give up a set bonus and what not. Masters de is just overtuned but other than that most classes with the right build can usually deal with pressure.
Sometimes I wear Vate staff and yeah it's nice to have 1 button pressure but I can say a lot of players counter fairly easy.
Also look at dragoox sorc dot pressure build. It doesn't even use the fire set and he just wasting players.2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Way of Fire does effectively the same thing as a stat set like Deadly Strike, buffing your pressure damage. The problem is that ZOS nerfed most pressure skills into the ground, meaning Deadly has nothing to buff, forcing players to rely on procs.Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps6 -
Oblivion_Protocol✭✭✭✭Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
I’ve never liked or understood this sentiment of “proc sets play the game for you”. You still have to activate the skills. You still have to do the PvP. It’s not like you can press one button and everyone dies.
Besides, I’ve killed dozens of players using Way of Fire, even when they paired it with MDW. Is it difficult sometimes? Yes. But it’s not impossible if you know what you’re doing, can line up burst, and manage your defensive abilities.
I swear, people want to nerf everything instead of buffing their own skill at the game. That’s how we end up in situations like this. One thing gets nerfed and the meta moves on to the next set, leaving us with one less option for fighting effectively.7 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
I’ve never liked or understood this sentiment of “proc sets play the game for you”. You still have to activate the skills. You still have to do the PvP. It’s not like you can press one button and everyone dies.
Besides, I’ve killed dozens of players using Way of Fire, even when they paired it with MDW. Is it difficult sometimes? Yes. But it’s not impossible if you know what you’re doing, can line up burst, and manage your defensive abilities.
I swear, people want to nerf everything instead of buffing their own skill at the game. That’s how we end up in situations like this. One thing gets nerfed and the meta moves on to the next set, leaving us with one less option for fighting effectively.
Proc sets are fine in theory but the problem comes when the conditions to meet are too easy or rewarding.
Also currently the interaction between some proc sets is too rewarding when combined.
Four damage proc sets that all work overly well with each other is an issue.
A well designed proc set should augment your skill level and not replace the bed for it.
Daedric Trickery while not being a damage set is an amazing example of what a proc set should be, rewarding in fun and interesting ways that make the player still have to think and play accordingly.
One problem is that in trying to keep proc sets fresh they've added a lot of garbage on top of a few that now stand out instead of having fun unique sets that make you want to basically try them all.1 -
Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
I’ve never liked or understood this sentiment of “proc sets play the game for you”. You still have to activate the skills. You still have to do the PvP. It’s not like you can press one button and everyone dies.
Besides, I’ve killed dozens of players using Way of Fire, even when they paired it with MDW. Is it difficult sometimes? Yes. But it’s not impossible if you know what you’re doing, can line up burst, and manage your defensive abilities.
I swear, people want to nerf everything instead of buffing their own skill at the game. That’s how we end up in situations like this. One thing gets nerfed and the meta moves on to the next set, leaving us with one less option for fighting effectively.
Proc sets are fine in theory but the problem comes when the conditions to meet are too easy or rewarding.
Also currently the interaction between some proc sets is too rewarding when combined.
Four damage proc sets that all work overly well with each other is an issue.
A well designed proc set should augment your skill level and not replace the bed for it.
Daedric Trickery while not being a damage set is an amazing example of what a proc set should be, rewarding in fun and interesting ways that make the player still have to think and play accordingly.
One problem is that in trying to keep proc sets fresh they've added a lot of garbage on top of a few that now stand out instead of having fun unique sets that make you want to basically try them all.
Yes, any defensive RNG set that helps carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay. Dedicated damage sets that have no direct benefit to your own survivability and which don't have any RNG involved, therefore removing some variation of luck from fights, is really bad and unskillful though.
A player truly has to think about and exert effort into which free random effect they're going to have to manually select as they're about to activate it. Its so much more challenging attempting to activate Daedric Trickery than activating a set like Way of Fire for example as it really increases the complexity of your rotation and requires superior weaving and APM to take advantage of. Way of Fire is scaling free damage, while passively increasing the value out of your vigor and receiving more healing for free isn't free with unscaled Daedric Trickery buffs as it requires more skill-based effort and many more buttons to press. Way of Fire may only require a single rending slashes to activate it multiple times. Meanwhile, Daedric trickery could use a rending slashes to activate and receive a hard earned defensive buff, multiple times.
Besides, it's not like defensive sets which can be combined with high resistances, high healing, undeath, LOS, roll dodging, and a defensive weapon on the back bar to block with could work too well together and cause any issues, and would never help further carry your survivability for you with its free defensive buffs.
Also, I've read on the forums that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1's because it involves groups of players fighting each other. So therefore, any set or ability that could be strong defensively and potentially cause stalemates is okay because the game shouldn't revolve around 1v1 balance. But we really should go after dedicated damage sets that perform best in 1v1's and rapidly fall off in performance the more enemy players you're up against in a PvP encounter. In the name of consistency of course./S
In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.Edited by Arcanasx on February 4, 2024 6:53AM3 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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It's incredible how the players crying that damage procs are "no skill" are totally fine with burst heals that enable you to make the dumbest mistake imaginable, drop into execute range, then be saved by pressing one button. One button they can spam indefinitely while blocking, no less. Behold, skilled PvP.carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay... In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.
Then there's something like Rallying Cry, which is even more ubiquitous than MDW, invalidates most other available back bar sets, completely brainless to use and keep up, but is apparently totally fine because it's not on death recaps.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps7 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭Do people even realize way of fire is an easily obtainable overland set and can be bought for just a few thousands?
Why complain about something you can get without any difficulty or grinding? It's not like those trial sets or monster helms.2 -
Dem_kitkats1✭✭✭✭Do people even realize way of fire is an easily obtainable overland set and can be bought for just a few thousands?
Why complain about something you can get without any difficulty or grinding? It's not like those trial sets or monster helms.
Accessibility to WoF isn't the problem. The continuing debate is how much should sets buff your skill and how overly well they can synergize with other sets, which impacts balancing and build diversity. Players don't appreciate dying to proc damage and not actual skills, understandably.1 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭Doesn't way of fire go well with anything that can apply constant pressure by weapon, such as bow builds?
It's nowhere as deadly as the Scavenging Maw, or require a specific playstyle. I hope nobody complain about bash set
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VinnyGambini✭✭✭Pic related:This set is pretty much the poison version of WoF, same base tooltip, same scaling, same cooldown. Look at its proc condition and compare it to WoF.
The problem with WoF is its proc condition, any weapon damage instance procs it so people use it with rending slashes and it acts as one of the strongest (pseudo-)dots in the game, only direct weapon damage should proc it.
THIS1 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WoF is essential for some PVE builds, and any nerf for the sake of PVP hurts that build in PVE. I hope that ZOS keeps that in mind.
PS5/NA0 -
Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
It's incredible how the players crying that damage procs are "no skill" are totally fine with burst heals that enable you to make the dumbest mistake imaginable, drop into execute range, then be saved by pressing one button. One button they can spam indefinitely while blocking, no less. Behold, skilled PvP.carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay... In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.
Then there's something like Rallying Cry, which is even more ubiquitous than MDW, invalidates most other available back bar sets, completely brainless to use and keep up, but is apparently totally fine because it's not on death recaps.
Its silly because while these players will accuse others of having their damage "carried" for them, they never seem to consider that their survivability sets and stats may be carrying their survivability for them too.
If its true that "damage sets do your damage for you, which then allows you to invest into defenses elsewhere", then it would also be true that "defensive sets can help carry your defenses for you, which then allows you to invest into damage elsewhere" as well.
Yet most of the complaints are against sets that do more to help end stalemates, rather than prolong it...Simply because these kinds of players tend to notice and focus on the sets that help with damage output, which shows up on their death recaps (and metrics), rather than the sets that might allow another player to help them survive long enough to find a window of opportunity to eventually secure a kill, but are omitted from the death recaps.
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Relequen over there in the corner hoping the nerf herders don't notice...Do people even realize way of fire is an easily obtainable overland set and can be bought for just a few thousands? Why complain about something you can get without any difficulty or grinding? It's not like those trial sets or monster helms.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps4 -
finehair✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
It's incredible how the players crying that damage procs are "no skill" are totally fine with burst heals that enable you to make the dumbest mistake imaginable, drop into execute range, then be saved by pressing one button. One button they can spam indefinitely while blocking, no less. Behold, skilled PvP.carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay... In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.
Then there's something like Rallying Cry, which is even more ubiquitous than MDW, invalidates most other available back bar sets, completely brainless to use and keep up, but is apparently totally fine because it's not on death recaps.
Its silly because while these players will accuse others of having their damage "carried" for them, they never seem to consider that their survivability sets and stats may be carrying their survivability for them too.
If its true that "damage sets do your damage for you, which then allows you to invest into defenses elsewhere", then it would also be true that "defensive sets can help carry your defenses for you, which then allows you to invest into damage elsewhere" as well.
Yet most of the complaints are against sets that do more to help end stalemates, rather than prolong it...Simply because these kinds of players tend to notice and focus on the sets that help with damage output, which shows up on their death recaps (and metrics), rather than the sets that might allow another player to help them survive long enough to find a window of opportunity to eventually secure a kill, but are omitted from the death recaps.
not really, there are tons of discussions about mara's balm + rallying cry + pariah sets in forums. Which are, kind of defensive options one can take.
The issue is that the set is doing the work for you. You can heal-purge-bomb etc. but the sets shouldn't purge you, deal more damage than your skills, pull a group of players so you can easily bomb them etc.2 -
silentxthreat✭✭✭well the main problem is wof has been bugged for some time. it goes off every tic of rending slash. they said they would patch it but the patch never fixed it some time ago and its still being exploited. they do need to nerf vate and wof though0
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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This isn't because procs are overpowered, but rather because too many skills are underpowered as a result of the heinous u35 sticky dot nerfs. More nerfs just leads to more tank meta, when we should really be demanding they buff class sticky dots so Deadly Strike stat pressure builds can perform just as well as proc pressure builds.deal more damage than your skillsPC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps8 -
ClowdyAllDay✭✭✭✭So i am confused. This post says this one says they keep dying due to the same setup, presumably based on death recap they know this, so they come to the forum to ask for a nerf for those sets rather than asking for help about how to become a better player to survive said attack? Does that about sum it up? Yeah? I thought so.
So here's the thing, if you cant figure out how to win, why would anyone really tell you how and then make their job winning against you in pvp harder? You have to figure it out. No one is going to tell you the secret to beating them in game any more that someone is going to tell you how to become the richest person on earth because basically the richest person on earth would cease to be so if they told you how and you dethroned them.
i mean, i think that would be obvious but maybe it's not.
And yet in spite of that, some people have given you some ideas about what to do differently. That's good for you but maybe less so for them when they meet you on the battlefield i guess.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »Pressure damage should come from skills and not from sets that do all the work for you.
pvp in eso has become a sad joke
I’ve never liked or understood this sentiment of “proc sets play the game for you”. You still have to activate the skills. You still have to do the PvP. It’s not like you can press one button and everyone dies.
Besides, I’ve killed dozens of players using Way of Fire, even when they paired it with MDW. Is it difficult sometimes? Yes. But it’s not impossible if you know what you’re doing, can line up burst, and manage your defensive abilities.
I swear, people want to nerf everything instead of buffing their own skill at the game. That’s how we end up in situations like this. One thing gets nerfed and the meta moves on to the next set, leaving us with one less option for fighting effectively.
Proc sets are fine in theory but the problem comes when the conditions to meet are too easy or rewarding.
Also currently the interaction between some proc sets is too rewarding when combined.
Four damage proc sets that all work overly well with each other is an issue.
A well designed proc set should augment your skill level and not replace the bed for it.
Daedric Trickery while not being a damage set is an amazing example of what a proc set should be, rewarding in fun and interesting ways that make the player still have to think and play accordingly.
One problem is that in trying to keep proc sets fresh they've added a lot of garbage on top of a few that now stand out instead of having fun unique sets that make you want to basically try them all.
Yes, any defensive RNG set that helps carry your survivability for you are totally interesting, and uniquely enable "skill based" gameplay. Dedicated damage sets that have no direct benefit to your own survivability and which don't have any RNG involved, therefore removing some variation of luck from fights, is really bad and unskillful though.
A player truly has to think about and exert effort into which free random effect they're going to have to manually select as they're about to activate it. Its so much more challenging attempting to activate Daedric Trickery than activating a set like Way of Fire for example as it really increases the complexity of your rotation and requires superior weaving and APM to take advantage of. Way of Fire is scaling free damage, while passively increasing the value out of your vigor and receiving more healing for free isn't free with unscaled Daedric Trickery buffs as it requires more skill-based effort and many more buttons to press. Way of Fire may only require a single rending slashes to activate it multiple times. Meanwhile, Daedric trickery could use a rending slashes to activate and receive a hard earned defensive buff, multiple times.
Besides, it's not like defensive sets which can be combined with high resistances, high healing, undeath, LOS, roll dodging, and a defensive weapon on the back bar to block with could work too well together and cause any issues, and would never help further carry your survivability for you with its free defensive buffs.
Also, I've read on the forums that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1's because it involves groups of players fighting each other. So therefore, any set or ability that could be strong defensively and potentially cause stalemates is okay because the game shouldn't revolve around 1v1 balance. But we really should go after dedicated damage sets that perform best in 1v1's and rapidly fall off in performance the more enemy players you're up against in a PvP encounter. In the name of consistency of course./S
In other words; as long as the set doesn't show up on your death recap, its perfectly fine I guess.
To be clear I'm fine with wof but can understand that it's an issue when it interacts with other sets that do the same thing.
My example with daedric is that you change what you do sometimes depending on the proc. Like if you notice you have expedition you might not run up like you have protection, or if you have heroism you might play to your ultimate. Not saying players that wear Trickery even consider all of this but if they did they could enjoy better results from the set.
Yes it's easy to proc and yes it defends the player in up to three forms at one time so I guess it's a matter of preference.
Do I want a player that hard to kill who has to then figure out how to kill me or a player that's hard to kill because of a strong offense that required two skills?
I'll honestly take the first scenario because it feels like we're both at least evenly working even if it ends in a stalemate.
Personally for me combat is more interesting when I see a back and forth of various skills and health bar movement. If you walk up and put Vate and rending on me I might try to kill you for a sec then leave because it's now just a boring by the numbers encounter.
In that same encounter if someone throws some skills at me even if they are tanky do to daedric I can at least appreciate that they have to keep applying skills in whatever rotation they worked up and that said skills won't always pressure me in the exact same way as the last 10 people.
I like when dk moved in for the breath fossil talons whip or NB does an incap into a bow with maybe a gap closer or concealed, or plar.tried to hit me with the basketball into a meteor or even throws in jabs.
Bottom line I'm more entertained when opponents are engaged but if your engagement is skill 1 skill 2 ult, etc regardless of class then it's pretty boring for me.0 -
Major_Toughness✭✭✭✭Just make it tick off direct damage, or the first tick of a dot, and not all dot ticks.PC EU > You0 -
Ok I can’t help myself so I’ll bite… what pve uses WoF when it objectively does less dps than rele whorl ect and doesn’t give you an insane damage buff like coral. Plus you also have to have constant weapon skills uptime which is pre much only your wall of fire procing itMidniteOwl1913 wrote: »WoF is essential for some PVE builds, and any nerf for the sake of PVP hurts that build in PVE. I hope that ZOS keeps that in mind.
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We should stop making threads to nerf things that aren’t unplayably overpowered, this set just adds pressure… it doesn’t hit that hard per proc and it can be easily countered by just healing the pressure off (assuming you have a good build)
I wish more people would complain about stuff that actually op and I wish more people cared about the sets that are completely useless or powercrept by a better version of themselves.
Someone in this thread brought up rallying cry which is objectively the most op set that’s been brought up here. It is the go to defensive back bar set and it allows more build customization by allowing you to not use impen and it also gives you damage4 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭One reason why I switched to no CP, no proc was because I was dying more to the procs then the players.
At least now I die to players.2 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I feel like blaming deaths on a set like Way of Fire is an excuse for players to avoid improving their own game. You still have to hit a player with WoF, or Poisonous Serpent, or Hrothgar, or Masters DW, or whatever. This isn't the old Ravager days when you hit deadly cloak and chased someone until they died. Or even the old Zaan + Elf Bane = dead setup.
If WoF was blasting you for 10K a hit, sure. But its not.6
