Ball groups ruining fun in Cyrodil

Sepultura_13 · March 2024

There are many different types/definitions of "ball groups."

The ones that I hate are the ones who are:
1) clearly using the same Discord to coordinate with their fellow OnlyFans creeps (seen often in BGs)
2) stalking/trolling/harassing other players
3) using other players for "siege fodder" to punish them for not being in their juvenile racist guild

I'm fine with being in a ball group, but I also know when I'm being used for "easy" AP when I'm mobbed by 20 adversaries who completely ignore others who are just sitting on their mounts or repairing siege.
Some things are just too obvious.

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2024

RetPing wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Ballgroups are the highest lvl of eso pvp. It is 12

Ballgroups are just the highest level in exploting broken mechanics and sets to kill n00bs

That's all.

edit: changed "to fight n00bs" in "to kill n00bs" since there is no real fight, more like Mike Tyson against a bunch of toddler.

I don’t understand what you’re calling “exploiting”. And ofc all they do is kill casual players… that’s the fastest way to gain massive amounts of ap. Farming people in a keep like that can amount to millions of ap per hour.

Vulkunne · March 2024

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ball groups break gameplay and if they don't wipe everyone out then at least they do create a distraction wherever they go. They are the thing that is holding ESO PvP back.

There is barely any room left in which to fight them now, especially with Arcanist Beams and so much excessive amounts of CC being thrown against players fighting them. I'm so tired of eating Arcanist CC and then 15-30 something people just shooting me down, especially when there is real fighting going on between factions like everone is stuck in 1v1 and 1v2 outside a keep. The ball groups sweep thru there and not only do they kill everyone, the PvP ends... the very reason we came to the server is rudely interrupted and brought to an end by a group of 15 people basically exploiting (as far as I'm concerned) because there's no way that ESO was originally envisioned to have that kind of over-powered behavior.

No one should have this kind of power in PvP.

ZOS Devs - Ball groups are *preventing* us from PvPing so until these guys are shut down you will have people running across your servers actually putting a stop to any PvP going on, wherever they go ESO PvP has failed and sometimes almost feels like a form of abuse or harassment even.

Literally the opposite of this. Ballgroups are the highest lvl of eso pvp. It is 12 coordinated and organized people each with specific dedicated builds all doing their jobs in order to blow up large amounts of people.

You guys always say it takes no skill or it’s brain dead but I don’t see 12 of YOU blowing up 100 people in seconds like they do.

Ballgroups are also not just 12 people in damage builds, there are normally 2 main healers 3-4 real damage dealers and everyone else is there to buff and support these 2 main groups of players. There normally is 1 or 2 dedicated “negate bot” / “talon bot” players who’s only job is to cc and lock down people so that the people with the pull set (rush dark conv ect) can get as many people as possible lined up for the damage players to nuke the clump. There is ALOT of coordination in doing this and it’s not something 12 random players can pull off

@cuddles_with_wroble
-Thank you for your reply and for providing some additional background regarding your perspective on this thread.

With that said, let's talk about this 'highest lvl of eso pvp' that you refer to it as. What I wonder, is the lowest level of eso pvp? Like is 1v1 the lowest level? Right? Nah that isn't right. Is it the lvl 50 Campaign... the rules are largely the same even though the levels are lower... so I don't think that's it. Is the lowest level 1vX yeah? No 1vX is hard and only a few of us care to seriously try to partake in that (including bombers), which doing so would require special builds.

Ah-hah! That's it. The lowest level of PvP is those who do not have the proper gear and skills leveled. The next level would be those that have 'proper gear' (of some variety), which the next level then would be groups themselves made up of all of the former player types. And then you're saying the final level, the highest level is those who take all of that and then super-fast coordinate (over comms mostly) in what we refer to as a ball group.

Is the ball group itself the problem or does ESO maybe have a lingering disparity issue between the 'washed' ball groups and the 'unwashed' casuals/average/new/orcs/Vulkunne masses? Like in other words, it sounds like what you're saying @cuddles_with_wroble is that most ESO players are in a situation where they are so massively out-leveled (by what can only be defined) as a superior, well equipped and coordinated force. Then by this same reasoning the only conclusion a reasonable man could make is that there really is no PvP possible between these two groups of people due to one side being so limited and the other side being noticeably unlimited. Like the lines get wiped, then the walls, the windows, the dashboard, the tail lights, the keep is gone like a sandcastle in very little time.

I post this not to argue with anyone directly but to once again point out, that it seems there is some real disparity here between we'll say the 'ordinary players' in PvP and the ultra-powerful ball groups. Like you said, you guys are on a level above everyone else, so much so that an ordinary person playing the game cannot compete against you, not even with a group of similar type. Note, the intention here is not to be critical of anyone else's skill or lack thereof, but to state that because of this disparity we are in essence proving more and more in this thread that there's a noticeable gap here in PvP, such that one can only conclude that anytime these two groups meet in IC or Cyrodiil, PvP ends for one and doesn't begin for another. One group walks away with massive AP and what do the poor 'ordinary' folks get? Maybe they might end the night with 200k AP (if they're lucky), after they've spent their time getting trampled over and over again by a ball group with no reasonable means to compete against them.

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2024

Vulkunne wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ball groups break gameplay and if they don't wipe everyone out then at least they do create a distraction wherever they go. They are the thing that is holding ESO PvP back.

There is barely any room left in which to fight them now, especially with Arcanist Beams and so much excessive amounts of CC being thrown against players fighting them. I'm so tired of eating Arcanist CC and then 15-30 something people just shooting me down, especially when there is real fighting going on between factions like everone is stuck in 1v1 and 1v2 outside a keep. The ball groups sweep thru there and not only do they kill everyone, the PvP ends... the very reason we came to the server is rudely interrupted and brought to an end by a group of 15 people basically exploiting (as far as I'm concerned) because there's no way that ESO was originally envisioned to have that kind of over-powered behavior.

No one should have this kind of power in PvP.

ZOS Devs - Ball groups are *preventing* us from PvPing so until these guys are shut down you will have people running across your servers actually putting a stop to any PvP going on, wherever they go ESO PvP has failed and sometimes almost feels like a form of abuse or harassment even.

Literally the opposite of this. Ballgroups are the highest lvl of eso pvp. It is 12 coordinated and organized people each with specific dedicated builds all doing their jobs in order to blow up large amounts of people.

You guys always say it takes no skill or it’s brain dead but I don’t see 12 of YOU blowing up 100 people in seconds like they do.

Ballgroups are also not just 12 people in damage builds, there are normally 2 main healers 3-4 real damage dealers and everyone else is there to buff and support these 2 main groups of players. There normally is 1 or 2 dedicated “negate bot” / “talon bot” players who’s only job is to cc and lock down people so that the people with the pull set (rush dark conv ect) can get as many people as possible lined up for the damage players to nuke the clump. There is ALOT of coordination in doing this and it’s not something 12 random players can pull off

@cuddles_with_wroble
-Thank you for your reply and for providing some additional background regarding your perspective on this thread.

With that said, let's talk about this 'highest lvl of eso pvp' that you refer to it as. What I wonder, is the lowest level of eso pvp? Like is 1v1 the lowest level? Right? Nah that isn't right. Is it the lvl 50 Campaign... the rules are largely the same even though the levels are lower... so I don't think that's it. Is the lowest level 1vX yeah? No 1vX is hard and only a few of us care to seriously try to partake in that (including bombers), which doing so would require special builds.

Ah-hah! That's it. The lowest level of PvP is those who do not have the proper gear and skills leveled. The next level would be those that have 'proper gear' or mine that has quite a bit of expertise built into it, which the next level would be groups themselves made up of all of the former player types. And then you're saying the final level, the highest level is those who take all of that and then super-fast coordinate (over comms mostly) in what we refer to as a ball group.

Is the ball group itself the problem or does ESO maybe have a lingering disparity issue between the 'washed' ball groups and the 'unwashed' casuals/average/new/mercs/orcs/Vulkunne masses? Like in other words, it sounds like what you're saying @cuddles_with_wroble is the players are in a situation where they are so massively out-leveled by what I will grant is a superior and coordinated force, that really I would conclude these is no PvP between these two groups of people. Like the lines get wiped, then the walls, the windows, the dashboard, the tail lights, the keep is gone like a sandcastle in very little time.

I post this not to argue with anyone directly but to once again point out, that there's real disparity here between the we'll say 'regulars' in PvP and the ultra powerful ball groups. Like you said, you guys are on a level above everyone else. And the problem that I would have with that isn't to be critical of anyone's skill or lack thereof, but to state that because this disparity we are in essence proving more and more in this thread that there's a void here where when these two groups meet PvP ends.

I like the way you explained it.

Just for the sake of it I’ll say put what I think the lvls are.

The lowest lvl of pvp imo is new players or casual pve players who don’t have a dedicated pvp setup and are just in cyro for an event or to roam in a zerg.

The mid lvl pvpers are the ones who either have some sort of mechanical skill from high end pve and or a good build they found on yt or thru a stream ect. These players understand the basic fundamentals of eso combat and can hold their own against the avg player. At this lvl people start to learn to 1vx and start straying away from zerg roaming.

High lvl pvpers are people who have mastered the combat system and this type of player normally makes their own build or collaborates with friends to create the builds that are the meta. This is the type of player you normally see in ballgroups bg premades or the 3 guys killing 20 people running around a tower. They understand they game in it’s entirely and they know how every set interacts and works with each other, with cp ect.

You said it well but I’ll say it not as nice. No amount of coordination or “secret build” is going to suddenly let pugs beat the ballgroups. 95% of the players in the game are literally cannon fodder for these players. The skill gap is so wide these days it’s not even a relevant contest. I’ve seen it said here but remeber any buff you make to help lower skilled players helps higher skilled players 10 times more because they know how to abuse every mechanic in the game

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2024

There are SOME reasonable content creators to watch and learn from but even they aren’t on a lvl where they could compete with some of these ball group players. There really isn’t anyone teaching people real or relevant information and everyone in the end game gate keeps any build they find that’s either really good or using bugged items. None of this really matters tho since most pugs don’t actually want to learn to pvp, they just spam they we are hackers or exploiters ect without trying to understand what even just killed them

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2024

I’ll give some anti ball group tips

1) if you are on a flag or a capture point of some sort… HOLD BLOCK AND DO NOT STACK.

2) look out for skills you see them using to proc the pull sets, you know after a pulll the damage comes so look out for these skills and block for a few seconds so you don’t get pulled… YOU CANNOT DODGE THE PULL

3)if your a healer either solo or grouped you should under no circumstances be in the actual fight. Your heals are ranged so use them at max range thus avoiding most of the pulls and being able to heal people thru them. RESTO ULT IS YOUR FRIEND. Resto ult doesn’t get eaten by negates like trees or slow you like Templar ult, it heals ALOT and you can cast your other heals while it’s healing.

4) remeber that negates also eat all ground aoe effects when dropped. So this will eat all your healing springs calchops standards ect. They also turn off magicka abilities, so it’s important to always have vigor or some other non magicka based healing skill on your bar. That way you can block and heal after the negate has been dropped on you.

5) I cannot stress this enough but ROLE DODGING IS NOT YIUR FRIEND. Basically all the damage ball groups use is undodagble. Most peoples first reaction is to panic and dodge roll thus all of the damage hitting and them getting obliterated. Half the time you die… it’s your own fault Bcs you rolled when just blocking and casting a vigor is sometimes enough for you to live depending on build ofc.

5) if your in a squishy build of any sort. You gonna die. You have no chance pre much no matter what you do. Even if you block and heal your just to squishy to live through any sort of massive damage like that and the only realistic thing for you to do is just be as far from the fight as you can be…. So if your squishy and melee, all I can say is maybe find another build

AnduinTryggva · March 2024

To be honest. I still think that dc is just so bad with the latency. Despite server upgrades I get barely a second when I see an aoe in most cases and then I need to decide if dc will drop or not. It is just a broken idea they should just remove or nerf down (for instance pull in circe is smaller than aoe circle).
It may be 3s in theory but in real life for me it is not even a 1s. And 1s is far below normal human reaction times. This is what you learn during driving lessons. The brain needs to proceed the images it sees, then process to understand what happens and finally plan action and send the signals. This takes about 2s as a standard value for wake and alert people.
This entire set combined with the technical limitations of internet defies human capabilities.

RetPing · March 2024

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I’ll give some anti ball group tips

I want to add a tip, all organized group are just a one trick-pony.
All the best of the best organized top eso pvp are just a one- trick pony that always do the same thing over and over and over.

The trick is of course to use some pull ability/broken set to bring you in and kill you.
So If you die many time to the best of the best top eso pvp group try using Nibenay Bay Battlereeve

RetPing · March 2024

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I don’t understand what you’re calling “exploiting”. And ofc all they do is kill casual players… that’s the fastest way to gain massive amounts of ap. Farming people in a keep like that can amount to millions of ap per hour.

When I use the word exploit I don't wanna mean something like "exploit a bug". There is no bug they are exploiting, I said this many time in zone chat to respond to someone saying ball grouper were exploting some bug.

What they do is to take advantage of mechanics/sets that are overpowered and to base their gameplay on those things. This is what I mean. They take advantage on flaw in the game design.
If you don't consider healing stacking a flaw in the game design, well that's for another dicussion.

And they kill casual players becasue it's the only thing they can do, they can't kill people that have experience in PvP.
They are too predictable, no Pvpers with some experience can fall for their one-trick pony.

Vulkunne · March 2024

RetPing wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I’ll give some anti ball group tips

I want to add a tip, all organized group are just a one trick-pony.
All the best of the best organized top eso pvp are just a one- trick pony that always do the same thing over and over and over.

The trick is of course to use some pull ability/broken set to bring you in and kill you.
So If you die many time to the best of the best top eso pvp group try using Nibenay Bay Battlereeve

I feel its important to point out, that just because they're in a ball group doesn't make them the best of best and a ball group itself while at the top of the food chain, is only so in terms of power vs other rungs on the latter.

And therein lies the problem because while I know many in some of the ball groups would claim themselves to be among the top pvpers, the best of the best, in fact they cannot assert this title because there is no scale to measure their worth collectively vs someone else's individually.

Its the same as saying, if I bomb a ball group successfully then I'm better than they, which isn't true. I just used leverage to defeat them, same as a ball group using their collective leverage to become more or less 'unstoppable'. Doesn't mean that even most members of any ball group could successfully duel me outside of their group.

And that's the whole issue here, at least far as I'm concerned. How do we compete with something like this for those groups get everything they want and the regular on the field is left being basically having their time wasted fighting them with very little to show for it.

AnduinTryggva · March 2024

To be honest they should plain and simple remove dc set from the game. It damaged more than it did good to the gameplay.

Yes, zergs were always part of cyrodiil but as such it is not a bad thing. The thing now is that the player kill farming groups out there got an optimal tool handed to them. I do appreciate the idea behind the set but sometimes an idea that sounds great in theory proves not so fine when put to practice.

ZOS_Icy · March 2024

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

Thank you for your understanding.