Allow us to opt out of events

Reginald_leBlem · February 2024

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

But I love how Kevin has to reiterate that the number of players affected is very small, multiple times, and yet their support is horribly burdened by this issue.

I wonder what the formula is for people on the forums vrs not.

supersonic_kitten · February 2024

By the way, @ZOS_Kevin thank you for clarification. It's the first solid piece of info we got in 8 days. I'm keeping my hopes up that the investigation is nearing closure.

Araneae6537 · February 2024

Thank you very much for the information here and in the other thread, @ZOS_Kevin !
For me, having this kind of information, something that can be shared of what ZOS is doing and why, really helps, even if I don’t agree completely.
Thank you!

Lumsdenml · February 2024

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

But I love how Kevin has to reiterate that the number of players affected is very small, multiple times, and yet their support is horribly burdened by this issue.

My guess would be that this isn't the only thing they are dealing with...

Lumsdenml · February 2024

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

But I love how Kevin has to reiterate that the number of players affected is very small, multiple times, and yet their support is horribly burdened by this issue.

I wonder what the formula is for people on the forums vrs not.

Total number of people playing the game * 0.03 = Number of people on forums.

RetPing · February 2024

jaws343 wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to clarify here. We followed up in another thread just a little while ago, but will share here. That response is below.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We do want to offer some clarity around the issue of bans here however. First, we want to note that no bans have actually been given out. Currently, a very small number of accounts are subject to an investigation regarding the transmute crystals issue during the Crafter's Celebration. Those under investigation have been temporarily suspended during the investigation period and have been notified of this. Those impacted will be noticed once the investigation is over and will receive further instruction. Please be patient as we work to conclude the investigation.

Additionally, when we look at actions for exploitation, we don't just say, "person did x, thus they are banned". We look at a multitude of factors to make sure if there is an margin for accidents, we can account for that. We totally understand is someone stumbles into an exploit on accident. But there is a difference between doing something, 3 times without knowing it and doing it 1000 times, for example. @LunaFlora mentioned the endeavor issue and we took the same approach there and outlined it. If you stumbled into in by accident, then we can see that and account for that. Those who took advantage, it was pretty easy to tell. Hopefully this helps in easing some concerns. But we'll make note of this and take it to the team as well.

In my country we have this thing "innocent until proven guilty".
First you find proof that someone did things wrong, then eventually you take actions. Not the other way around.
There are many people that will lose all the Mayhem event being probably innocent.

[snip]

Gather Evidence ---> Accounts have activities that relate to a duplication bug that ZOS can see in their data
Take Action ----> ZOS temporarily suspends accounts
Punishment --> ZOS either bans or re-instates accounts based on review of the evidence

I mean, that is pretty much how hte justice system works. You get arrested based on evidence, and then your presumption of innocence is used during the trial. Accounts temporarily suspended for review are basically in the trial phase.

Let's forget this was mostly ZOS failure right?
[snip]
[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

colossalvoids · February 2024

RetPing wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to clarify here. We followed up in another thread just a little while ago, but will share here. That response is below.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We do want to offer some clarity around the issue of bans here however. First, we want to note that no bans have actually been given out. Currently, a very small number of accounts are subject to an investigation regarding the transmute crystals issue during the Crafter's Celebration. Those under investigation have been temporarily suspended during the investigation period and have been notified of this. Those impacted will be noticed once the investigation is over and will receive further instruction. Please be patient as we work to conclude the investigation.

Additionally, when we look at actions for exploitation, we don't just say, "person did x, thus they are banned". We look at a multitude of factors to make sure if there is an margin for accidents, we can account for that. We totally understand is someone stumbles into an exploit on accident. But there is a difference between doing something, 3 times without knowing it and doing it 1000 times, for example. @LunaFlora mentioned the endeavor issue and we took the same approach there and outlined it. If you stumbled into in by accident, then we can see that and account for that. Those who took advantage, it was pretty easy to tell. Hopefully this helps in easing some concerns. But we'll make note of this and take it to the team as well.

In my country we have this thing "innocent until proven guilty".
First you find proof that someone did things wrong, then eventually you take actions. Not the other way around.
There are many people that will lose all the Mayhem event being probably innocent.

[snip]

Gather Evidence ---> Accounts have activities that relate to a duplication bug that ZOS can see in their data
Take Action ----> ZOS temporarily suspends accounts
Punishment --> ZOS either bans or re-instates accounts based on review of the evidence

I mean, that is pretty much how hte justice system works. You get arrested based on evidence, and then your presumption of innocence is used during the trial. Accounts temporarily suspended for review are basically in the trial phase.

Let's forget this was mostly ZOS failure right?
[snip]

All "weaknesses" are zos's fault, but exploiting is an obvious tos violation and they'll be really lucky if missed MYM would be the only downside after.

[edited to remove quote]

manukartofanu · February 2024

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Obviously the accounts need to be temporarily suspended and items removed so they can't damage the economy. But, afterwards it's my sincere hope that these players get their accounts back. And I don't feel like I'm the only player that feels that way. I just feel there's such a big difference between things that happen because they played the game as normal and bugs that require odd or complicated steps to reproduce.

People who take advantage of the event rules to make transmutes and create more Nirn cannot harm the economy more than the developers' own innovations (hello to archive rewards and new jewelry crafting). I wouldn't use this as justification for a 'temporary' ban lasting a few weeks, causing people to miss the current event.

gamergirldk · March 2024

Get a perfectet malesrrom drop in normal is ok,get extra transmute crystale is not...suspended..

Make up your mind.

KS_Amt38 · March 2024

gamergirldk wrote: »

Get a perfectet malesrrom drop in normal is ok,get extra transmute crystale is not...suspended..

Make up your mind.

That extra drop was non perfected.

nwilliams2107b16_ESO · March 2024

If you don’t want to do them, don’t! No one forces you too.

Amottica · March 2024

spartaxoxo wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

That's all well and good but there's a few pieces of feedback I'd like to give about this that I feel could use some improvement or feedback.

1) Tickets are not being responded to about this investigation. Many users are under the impression they have already been permanently banned, when evidently they have not. And they have waited long times for responses. I understand there's a high volume but there should at least be an automated reply reiterating that for now the suspension is temporary pending the results of the investigation and that a customer service agent will only be available after it's concluded. Leaving players unread for over a week naturally leads them to draw their own conclusions.

2) Ban waves of this nature should have official discussion threads so players can discuss it and players seeking answers have some where to go for official information. It would have helped a lot of the misinformation stop from being spread. Obviously ban waves related to hacks or other sensitive matters should remain private. But this was a pretty public exploit.

3) Exploits that don't require doing anything unusual shouldn't result in a permanent suspension. "Let me take advantage of this event," is pretty different thought process than "Let me exploit a bug," even though they look exactly the same thing when the only thing required for exploitation is playing the game as normal. This should be considered a mitigating circumstance imo. I think I'm not the only that feels the same as it seems a sentiment I have seen commonly expressed.

Obviously the accounts need to be temporarily suspended and items removed so they can't damage the economy. But, afterwards it's my sincere hope that these players get their accounts back. And I don't feel like I'm the only player that feels that way. I just feel there's such a big difference between things that happen because they played the game as normal and bugs that require odd or complicated steps to reproduce.

Kevin has noted that they are still investigating the accounts and exploit. They have not banned anyone as yet, only suspensions.

While the investigation is going on there is nothing of value to add that is not already known.

Kevin has also noted that the suspension required numerous repetitions of what was exploited. From what he has said the accounts that are being reviewed went far beyond the norm during this event.

Erickson9610 · March 2024

So what would happen if the ability to opt out of events lead to an even more severe exploit that people could abuse? Imagine if Event Tickets could be earned multiple times per day by toggling in/out of the event, for instance.

The point is, the ability to opt out of events would in no way reduce the probability of exploiting a bug in the game to zero.

SmellyUnlimited · March 2024

KS_Amt38 wrote: »

gamergirldk wrote: »

Get a perfectet malesrrom drop in normal is ok,get extra transmute crystale is not...suspended..

Make up your mind.

That extra drop was non perfected.

They’re referring to the fact that for the first day, at least for a number of hours, players were getting a normal drop AND a perfected maelstrom weapon from running normal Maelstrom Arena.

SilverBride · March 2024

Erickson9610 wrote: »

So what would happen if the ability to opt out of events lead to an even more severe exploit that people could abuse? Imagine if Event Tickets could be earned multiple times per day by toggling in/out of the event, for instance.

The point is, the ability to opt out of events would in no way reduce the probability of exploiting a bug in the game to zero.

If anyone did that there would be no question that they were knowingly and purposely exploiting. I'm not sure that doing so would reset the timer for receiving tickets anyway.

But they could make it so once it's been toggled off it can't be changed for the duration of the event, and would have to be toggled off again the next time that event comes around.

The crafting event opened up a bug for players even if they weren't actively participating. Anyone that just happened to reconstruct some gear then deconstruct the older sets they were replacing was exposed to this.

Carcamongus · March 2024

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

So what would happen if the ability to opt out of events lead to an even more severe exploit that people could abuse? Imagine if Event Tickets could be earned multiple times per day by toggling in/out of the event, for instance.

The point is, the ability to opt out of events would in no way reduce the probability of exploiting a bug in the game to zero.

If anyone did that there would be no question that they were knowingly and purposely exploiting. I'm not sure that doing so would reset the timer for receiving tickets anyway.

But they could make it so once it's been toggled off it can't be changed for the duration of the event, and would have to be toggled off again the next time that event comes around.

The crafting event opened up a bug for players even if they weren't actively participating. Anyone that just happened to reconstruct some gear then deconstruct the older sets they were replacing was exposed to this.

As someone already said, it's sad to see a player request a way to opt out of events because she fears being banned for "accidentally exploiting" (I put it between quotations because it's quite logical exploiting requires intent). Especially when the exploit was the result of a mistake that should've been easy to avoid.

I too have been nervous about being banned or suspended for accidentally doing something ever since the "Reaper's March endeavor exploit". I also remember quite well not all of those suspended were found guilty, as some stated here in the forums they were allowed back.

I suppose short of not logging on during an event, you can check the forums for reports of event-related exploits. I guess I'll have to start doing that.

Elsonso · March 2024

sarahthes wrote: »

Bans have always been for people who abused the exploit excessively.

People who did not do it excessively have not been banned, at least not permanently. In the case of the endeavors, every single person who was falsely flagged got their accounts back.

If people aren't getting their accounts back after participating in this exploit, that should tell you something. Especially since it was only possible for about an hour.

Even if they are not permanently banned, having the account locked and being required to go through an appeal process to get it unlocked is a lot to ask of someone who perhaps did nothing wrong.

sarahthes · March 2024

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Bans have always been for people who abused the exploit excessively.

People who did not do it excessively have not been banned, at least not permanently. In the case of the endeavors, every single person who was falsely flagged got their accounts back.

If people aren't getting their accounts back after participating in this exploit, that should tell you something. Especially since it was only possible for about an hour.

Even if they are not permanently banned, having the account locked and being required to go through an appeal process to get it unlocked is a lot to ask of someone who perhaps did nothing wrong.

It is something you agree to when you make your account, however.

Uvi_AUT · March 2024

RetPing wrote: »

In my country we have this thing "innocent until proven guilty".

There is also "protect the innocent". Detaining someone while figuring out if he is innocent is perfectly fine.

Grizzbeorn · March 2024

SilverBride wrote: »

Look at how many players are banned right now

Look at how many aren't.

RetPing · March 2024

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

In my country we have this thing "innocent until proven guilty".

There is also "protect the innocent". Detaining someone while figuring out if he is innocent is perfectly fine.

Who are the innocent that need protection here? For a possible multipication of transmute? i don't get it.
People need protection because nirncrux market could take a hit?
I really don't get it.

gamergirldk · March 2024

Mate not every1 did it for nirncrux, just wanted the crystals.

colossalvoids · March 2024

gamergirldk wrote: »

Mate not every1 did it for nirncrux, just wanted the crystals.

Does it matter though? It's a tos violation, people were perfectly aware of it or just naive to the point of no return at best. No one was suspended because reconstructed a set or two as we already know thanks to Kevin, so it's not like some huge amount of players are wrongly accused and waiting for the investigation to end. People abused it and now getting the time out at the time, that's normal thing in such case.

RetPing · March 2024

colossalvoids wrote: »

Does it matter though? It's a tos violation, people were perfectly aware of it or just naive to the point of no return at best.

So people were naive, could you please tell me what adjective you would use for developers that made this mistake?
I know mistakes can be made, but this one is different.

colossalvoids · March 2024

RetPing wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Does it matter though? It's a tos violation, people were perfectly aware of it or just naive to the point of no return at best.

So people were naive, could you please tell me what adjective you would use for developers that made this mistake?
I know mistakes can be made, but this one is different.

I would love to tell you, but the comment would be removed and that's my last forum warning hanging there. Anyway there's tos covering their mistakes and their decisions, while we're here are "renting" everything on their terms. Violation of terms here is obvious and "it's their own creation" logic doesn't change a thing.

supersonic_kitten · March 2024

Not everyone who abused it was suspended. I don't know the legitimacy of the stories as it's hearsay, but what I heard is that some of the people who printed nirncrux are still running around in game. So by that logic, if not everybody who did it was suspended, surely it's not that hard to believe that people who didn't abuse it were suspended also?

This is just speculation, and it's pointless to point finger at who did what until we know the results.

Remember, it's still an ongoing investigation, and it's definitely not that simple. Otherwise it wouldn't take 9 days and support being at capacity limit to investigate a small amount of people if they know how to identify those who exploited so easily.

Tyralbin · March 2024

RetPing wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to clarify here. We followed up in another thread just a little while ago, but will share here. That response is below.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We do want to offer some clarity around the issue of bans here however. First, we want to note that no bans have actually been given out. Currently, a very small number of accounts are subject to an investigation regarding the transmute crystals issue during the Crafter's Celebration. Those under investigation have been temporarily suspended during the investigation period and have been notified of this. Those impacted will be noticed once the investigation is over and will receive further instruction. Please be patient as we work to conclude the investigation.

Additionally, when we look at actions for exploitation, we don't just say, "person did x, thus they are banned". We look at a multitude of factors to make sure if there is an margin for accidents, we can account for that. We totally understand is someone stumbles into an exploit on accident. But there is a difference between doing something, 3 times without knowing it and doing it 1000 times, for example. @LunaFlora mentioned the endeavor issue and we took the same approach there and outlined it. If you stumbled into in by accident, then we can see that and account for that. Those who took advantage, it was pretty easy to tell. Hopefully this helps in easing some concerns. But we'll make note of this and take it to the team as well.

In my country we have this thing "innocent until proven guilty".
First you find proof that someone did things wrong, then eventually you take actions. Not the other way around.
There are many people that will lose all the Mayhem event being probably innocent.

[snip]

But in countries with this type of justice you can still be bailed or actually held in custody until any court case is heard.

So, whils't I understand the frustration some people are having I can understand the way ZOS handles suspensions.

That being said, the crafters event was a right mess. It should have been tested in-house before release.

Not sure if it was on PTS but if not it should have been.

The perception I get is that it was rushed.

[edited to remove quote]

Blood_again · March 2024

Sure this option would be the best goal to spend the development team resources.
New content, bug fixes and QoL improvements can wait. People can't mount in Cyro event for hours? Who cares?
Checkbox "I don't participate in this" is pure necessary. We can't just step aside and don't join the event by will, can we?

Mayrael · March 2024

ZOS isn't perfect, but it's not as bad as it's often made out to be. I know what players can be like—they often shed crocodile tears when they get caught red-handed, claiming they "didn't know it was against the rules" when deep down, they were hoping they wouldn't get caught.

Despite being in this game for almost 10 years and having a lot to lose, I don't feel threatened by ZOS at all because I always strive to be fair to other players. Anyone who's like me can sleep soundly and doesn't need these kinds of topics on the forum.

ElderOfTamriel · March 2024

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to clarify here. We followed up in another thread just a little while ago, but will share here. That response is below.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We do want to offer some clarity around the issue of bans here however. First, we want to note that no bans have actually been given out. Currently, a very small number of accounts are subject to an investigation regarding the transmute crystals issue during the Crafter's Celebration. Those under investigation have been temporarily suspended during the investigation period and have been notified of this. Those impacted will be noticed once the investigation is over and will receive further instruction. Please be patient as we work to conclude the investigation.

Additionally, when we look at actions for exploitation, we don't just say, "person did x, thus they are banned". We look at a multitude of factors to make sure if there is an margin for accidents, we can account for that. We totally understand is someone stumbles into an exploit on accident. But there is a difference between doing something, 3 times without knowing it and doing it 1000 times, for example. @LunaFlora mentioned the endeavor issue and we took the same approach there and outlined it. If you stumbled into in by accident, then we can see that and account for that. Those who took advantage, it was pretty easy to tell. Hopefully this helps in easing some concerns. But we'll make note of this and take it to the team as well.

Is it cheating when we exploit the developers' mistakes?

I see that nobody was banned and thats also good imo, it wouldnt be right any other way. its probably more of an ethic question if you use the exploit or not but you cant really punish anyone for doing it i guess.