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Ball groups ruining fun in Cyrodil

  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
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    Roztlin45 wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    Roztlin45 wrote: »
    Dark Convergence + Fear = AP farming and game-breaking. People have been farming AP for a while now, racking up hundreds of thousands of AP to convert to gold. I have seen them take the game down for extra points in trials yet this gets ignored. LOL extremely hard to counter this set and combo.

    Calling Dark Convergence game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration. Is it annoying? You bet! Dark Convergence can be countered quite easily with the Nibenay Bay Battlereeve set and by simply breaking free, blocking/walking out of the circle. The issue is that more people have to just suck it up and wear Nibenay, and not everyone is willing to drop their preferred monster set to equip it. All my PVP characters wear it, and I wish more would. We’d all see faaaar fewer Vicious Death recaps.

    I guess it is so easy to counter that TONs of bomb video shows dozens of dead bodies over and over. 90% of the time it works to kill everyone and if in a group almost every time. I understand that people want to defend it so AP farming can resume unabated. The only reason I care is that it is a real turn-off to people just entering the PVP environment.

    If you’d read past “Dark Convergence can be countered quite easily,” you’d see that there’s a condition for that easy counter: wearing the set that directly counters it. All those bomb videos likely have one thing in common: hardly anyone in the cluster of dead bodies wearing Nibenay. Believe me, I am not defending Dark Convergence. I dislike Dark Convergence immensely. I also dislike the fact that so many players refuse to even try to counter it.
  • Four_Fingers
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    That is the main issue about all the PvP complaints, they just want to waltz in and dominate without any effort by using counters that are in the game.
    Negate is a good example.
  • Kidgangster101
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    sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »
    They should make it so you can only have 1 echoing vigor effect on you while battle spirit is active. Seeing those groups of 8-12 players who become tightly knit and spam echoing vigor every 3-4 seconds so they're immortal is pretty BS. They can eventually die, but it takes too long to get rid of them. Not to mention they're one of the reasons why cyrodiil is so laggy. I don't know why this has never been addressed, and I'm hoping it's not because they can't do it or because the PvPers at ZOS use the same method. Hopefully the PvP update in Q4 tackles cross healing. There's no skill involved in it.

    Or better yet they do what I've been saying was a problem for years..... The problem is everyone stacks weapon/spell damage so they are able to get crazy high heals (especially since they merged both stacks into one).

    The real solution is super easy...... You make pvp specific equipment and You make a "healing stat" where that determines how much you actually heal. If you want to be a heal bot by all means stack this stat but you give up the ability to deal high damage to do so. Man look how easy that just became?

    We have 3 roles in this game (DPS, tank, healer) maybe it's about time we visit those 3 roles and make them all feel important (separately) not just everyone having tankiness, healing, and damage.

    Tanks can have high HP pool and maybe they can choose weather they get slightly more healing or damage. They shouldn't have everything.

    Healers are just that. They maybe can get more HP to survive more or a bit more damage to kill faster. But they would mainly want the new healing stat added so they could keep groups alive.

    Then finally DPS. They would have to choose to be slightly tanky or choose to have a bit of better healing. Not everything in one and heal like a god because they have over 5000 weapon/spell damage.

    Lastly make specific sets that only work in pvp. Let's get rid of all the proc set cheese people always complain about. That way you can balance the sets and then release new sets like pve (that way pvp players feel the need to get gear just like pve players) and you can truly balance abilities and moves by limiting set choices as well.

    With these changes you easily solve some of the issues in pvp and limit people to doing what this game is designed for. Cyrodil is designed for group play and people need to remember that.
    Edited by Kidgangster101 on February 26, 2024 3:56PM
  • LokiPagan
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    It honestly just pisses me off so much that Zenimax will nerf random sets and get obsessive over weird little things, but OH, 12 players who could honestly have on random gear they found on the ground and have awful builds can all slap on speed gear and constantly spam echoing vigor and become halfway immortal.

    Like, they zero in on any set that players might be having a little fun with, but this is fine? It's not "smart mechanics" or "good organized groups" or whatever some people in ball groups love to say, it's just broken. Nerf the bloody skill to only work with 4 people or something, it's bloody ridiculous as it is.

    Or hey, Final Fantasy XIV, a game where the devs ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS AND/OR PLAY THEIR OWN GAME, did something I'm a big fan of - they divorced PvP and PvE skills. So, you go into a PvP instance and all your skills change, there is a PvP and a PvE version of the same skill. That's been needed in ESO for a very long time, IMO.
  • sh4d0wh4z3
    sh4d0wh4z3
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    sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »
    They should make it so you can only have 1 echoing vigor effect on you while battle spirit is active. Seeing those groups of 8-12 players who become tightly knit and spam echoing vigor every 3-4 seconds so they're immortal is pretty BS. They can eventually die, but it takes too long to get rid of them. Not to mention they're one of the reasons why cyrodiil is so laggy. I don't know why this has never been addressed, and I'm hoping it's not because they can't do it or because the PvPers at ZOS use the same method. Hopefully the PvP update in Q4 tackles cross healing. There's no skill involved in it.

    Or better yet they do what I've been saying was a problem for years..... The problem is everyone stacks weapon/spell damage so they are able to get crazy high heals (especially since they merged both stacks into one).

    The real solution is super easy...... You make pvp specific equipment and You make a "healing stat" where that determines how much you actually heal. If you want to be a heal bot by all means stack this stat but you give up the ability to deal high damage to do so. Man look how easy that just became?

    We have 3 roles in this game (DPS, tank, healer) maybe it's about time we visit those 3 roles and make them all feel important (separately) not just everyone having tankiness, healing, and damage.

    Tanks can have high HP pool and maybe they can choose weather they get slightly more healing or damage. They shouldn't have everything.

    Healers are just that. They maybe can get more HP to survive more or a bit more damage to kill faster. But they would mainly want the new healing stat added so they could keep groups alive.

    Then finally DPS. They would have to choose to be slightly tanky or choose to have a bit of better healing. Not everything in one and heal like a god because they have over 5000 weapon/spell damage.

    Lastly make specific sets that only work in pvp. Let's get rid of all the proc set cheese people always complain about. That way you can balance the sets and then release new sets like pve (that way pvp players feel the need to get gear just like pve players) and you can truly balance abilities and moves by limiting set choices as well.

    With these changes you easily solve some of the issues in pvp and limit people to doing what this game is designed for. Cyrodil is designed for group play and people need to remember that.

    This really won't do anything to fix ball group issues since they will just have the majority in the group spec'd as healers, and non healers still spamming echoing vigor and radiant regen for 1/4th of it's power will still be strong enough to let them be immortal. Ball groups don't deal much damage to begin with . They heavily rely on 1 person using dark convergence while another player uses the arcanist or necro ult, or the master's 2h with plaguebreak or viscious death. Your solution would help against the overall tank meta in small fights though.
  • sh4d0wh4z3
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    That is the main issue about all the PvP complaints, they just want to waltz in and dominate without any effort by using counters that are in the game.
    Negate is a good example.

    If negate was an actual counter against ball groups, players would use it. However, since echoing vigor is not magic, and neither is retreating maneuver, it won't do anything to stop them. They can just run out the bubble and continue casting radiant regen so it stacks with echoing vigor.

    As it stands, there's no real counter to a ball group that is heal stacking. Snake in the Stars was promising, but became a paper weight before it hit live when ZOS noticed it was too effective against ball groups and those players whined about it. Item sets shouldn't be the solution to the heal stacking problem in the first place.
    Edited by sh4d0wh4z3 on February 26, 2024 4:46PM
  • Four_Fingers
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    Radiating regen and Healing springs, Combat prayer, etc. are all magic based.
    Negate shuts down most of my healing bar, not to mention we run 2 negate bots in the group along with our bombers.
    Flat out telling you Negate and siege are our greatest nemesis, along with taking out our healers first.
  • jad11mumbler
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    r34lian wrote: »
    From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun :(

    Ball groups are a bunch of fun once you're able to take them down.
    Just needs the pugs to co ordinate a bit, or even better, a decent group to counter them.

    They're also fun to play in.

    Players shouldn't be penalised for playing anything optimally.
    174 characters and counting over 13 accounts.

    120 writ certified. 73 at CP rank.
  • dvonpm
    dvonpm
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    Roztlin45 wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    Roztlin45 wrote: »
    Dark Convergence + Fear = AP farming and game-breaking. People have been farming AP for a while now, racking up hundreds of thousands of AP to convert to gold. I have seen them take the game down for extra points in trials yet this gets ignored. LOL extremely hard to counter this set and combo.

    Calling Dark Convergence game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration. Is it annoying? You bet! Dark Convergence can be countered quite easily with the Nibenay Bay Battlereeve set and by simply breaking free, blocking/walking out of the circle. The issue is that more people have to just suck it up and wear Nibenay, and not everyone is willing to drop their preferred monster set to equip it. All my PVP characters wear it, and I wish more would. We’d all see faaaar fewer Vicious Death recaps.

    I guess it is so easy to counter that TONs of bomb video shows dozens of dead bodies over and over. 90% of the time it works to kill everyone and if in a group almost every time. I understand that people want to defend it so AP farming can resume unabated. The only reason I care is that it is a real turn-off to people just entering the PVP environment.

    There are plenty of ways to counter.

    It can be blocked or dodged, and you can scatter. You don't need to wear specific gear, but maybe having a set to swap into when ball groups are in your hair wouldn't hurt.

    I would recommend turning your enemy aoe *brightness up to max and giving it a bright color.

    When you see the big circles from proxy det, that is your queu to start blocking or scattering or get ready to dodge. You've got 8 seconds to react.

    But with lag you should treat that like 4.

    Scattering is probably your best defense and just make sure you aren't too close to other players.

    You can absolutely survive and avoid bombs, but balls will take advantage of uncoordinated movements and mistakes and we want to scoop you up with that 20k health pug on your left because that person will hurt you more than our actual dps 😉

    *ETA setting is Gameplay>Enemy color> enemy brightness
    Edited by dvonpm on February 26, 2024 5:27PM
  • katanagirl1
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    sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »
    That is the main issue about all the PvP complaints, they just want to waltz in and dominate without any effort by using counters that are in the game.
    Negate is a good example.

    If negate was an actual counter against ball groups, players would use it. However, since echoing vigor is not magic, and neither is retreating maneuver, it won't do anything to stop them. They can just run out the bubble and continue casting radiant regen so it stacks with echoing vigor.

    As it stands, there's no real counter to a ball group that is heal stacking. Snake in the Stars was promising, but became a paper weight before it hit live when ZOS noticed it was too effective against ball groups and those players whined about it. Item sets shouldn't be the solution to the heal stacking problem in the first place.

    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP

    PS5 NA

  • McMasterx
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    loosej wrote: »
    I also don't think that heal stacking is going anywhere. However, knowing there's something coming for PvP in Q4, and knowing how zos likes to fix things by adding more options, here's my hope:
    • a new game mode, something between a battleground and Cyrodiil
    • 12v12 (please no 12v12v12), separate queue for premades and pugs
    • each side starts with 1 keep, some outposts in the center of the map that give buffs, siege enabled
    • mounts disabled, all travel on foot (bypasses the in-combat bug)
    • maybe add a mechanic where groups of guards spawn in the keep and start moving towards the enemy keep, fighting along the way, seems to work well in other games
    • winner is the side that claims all keeps
    Basically a setting where organized groups get to shine knowing they'll have a similar opponent, while still being accessible to solo players. And in doing so, hopefully taking a bit of server load away from Cyrodiil.

    This wouldnt get ballgroups to leave Cyrodiil, they dont even fight each other in Cyrodiil. Hell, they dont even play for obejectives in PcNa Grayhost. All ballgroups tend to do is run around 3rd floors of trikeeps slaughtering solos, and disorganized groups. It's just raw killing theyre after, anyone saying "it's good ap" is full of crap. Killing the same group of people over and over again rewards fewer points by intentional game design.
    Pc/Na
  • r34lian
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    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.

    I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.

    2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton
  • dvonpm
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    r34lian wrote: »

    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.

    I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.

    Ok I'm probably going to regret telling you this, but streak screws up pushes all the time.

    I've seen other ball group members playing solo and doing this to my group, and it definitely makes things harder. But it's all about timing. Random ccs and negates won't be as effective.

    You need to pay attention to when a push is about to happen and disrupt.

    You need to watch cc immunity too. This too makes it harder for you because people are throwing the kitchen sink at the ball and you have no control over that and probly can't see half of it.

    The group coordination really puts you at a disadvantage, no matter how good you are. You need to compensate for that.

    So your job is pressure...hectoring and constant stress on resources, while keeping yourself out of pulls. Eventually you will wear them down. You can use defensive negate on enemy pulls as well. Or just carpet/stagger drops if you can work with others.

    Practice watching for cc immunity and timing that 3 seconds and splitting the group with your streak. You'll see it definitely messes with movements and momentum.

    There are other things which I will leave unsaid because I don't want to make this too easy for you 😆

    All of this is very annoying, I understand. But the real thing that causes the disadvantage is the coordination and buff/debuff management. That will be true no matter what sets are, so try to change how think of your strategy to more guerrilla warfare.

    Your negates or streaks do not have to result in immediate enemy deaths to be effective.

  • Kidgangster101
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    dvonpm wrote: »
    r34lian wrote: »

    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.

    I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.

    Ok I'm probably going to regret telling you this, but streak screws up pushes all the time.

    I've seen other ball group members playing solo and doing this to my group, and it definitely makes things harder. But it's all about timing. Random ccs and negates won't be as effective.

    You need to pay attention to when a push is about to happen and disrupt.

    You need to watch cc immunity too. This too makes it harder for you because people are throwing the kitchen sink at the ball and you have no control over that and probly can't see half of it.

    The group coordination really puts you at a disadvantage, no matter how good you are. You need to compensate for that.

    So your job is pressure...hectoring and constant stress on resources, while keeping yourself out of pulls. Eventually you will wear them down. You can use defensive negate on enemy pulls as well. Or just carpet/stagger drops if you can work with others.

    Practice watching for cc immunity and timing that 3 seconds and splitting the group with your streak. You'll see it definitely messes with movements and momentum.

    There are other things which I will leave unsaid because I don't want to make this too easy for you 😆

    All of this is very annoying, I understand. But the real thing that causes the disadvantage is the coordination and buff/debuff management. That will be true no matter what sets are, so try to change how think of your strategy to more guerrilla warfare.

    Your negates or streaks do not have to result in immediate enemy deaths to be effective.

    Yep but the big thing is people need to team up also. The reason why "ball groups" are really successful is because people want to play solo in a big open world team focused cyrodil. If you teamed up even 4-5 together it can change a lot. I used to play in a group of 4-6 and we would take out many "ball groups" because we worked together and all were very good at the game.

    So again stop trying to cater the game around solo player experience. We used to have 24 man groups and now people are complaining about 12 team groups. Lol legit play the mode how it is intended to be rather than being a dueler. If you wanna do that then challenge people outside of cyrodil. If you choose to play one yes you should lose to a group of 12 players and if you do beat them alone we'll that should say something about that group of 12 lol.
  • ItsNotLiving
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    r34lian wrote: »
    From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun :(

    Haha yeah…..
  • Stridig
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    I think people would care alot less about ball groups if it weren't for the stuck in combat bug. Ball groups don't have to play the map for objectives. They can simply get half a faction stuck in combat so that faction struggles to respond to actual fights. It's beyond annoying. And good luck killing yourself unless you're close to slaughter fish. For me, that's what ruins the fun. There are some very good players who have chosen to play in ball groups even though they can 1vx without any trouble and it baffles me why they would choose to do so. Maybe it's fun to just farm people. But that farming comes at a cost to everyone else.
    Enemy to many
    Friend to all
  • katanagirl1
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    dvonpm wrote: »
    r34lian wrote: »

    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.

    I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.

    Ok I'm probably going to regret telling you this, but streak screws up pushes all the time.

    I've seen other ball group members playing solo and doing this to my group, and it definitely makes things harder. But it's all about timing. Random ccs and negates won't be as effective.

    You need to pay attention to when a push is about to happen and disrupt.

    You need to watch cc immunity too. This too makes it harder for you because people are throwing the kitchen sink at the ball and you have no control over that and probly can't see half of it.

    The group coordination really puts you at a disadvantage, no matter how good you are. You need to compensate for that.

    So your job is pressure...hectoring and constant stress on resources, while keeping yourself out of pulls. Eventually you will wear them down. You can use defensive negate on enemy pulls as well. Or just carpet/stagger drops if you can work with others.

    Practice watching for cc immunity and timing that 3 seconds and splitting the group with your streak. You'll see it definitely messes with movements and momentum.

    There are other things which I will leave unsaid because I don't want to make this too easy for you 😆

    All of this is very annoying, I understand. But the real thing that causes the disadvantage is the coordination and buff/debuff management. That will be true no matter what sets are, so try to change how think of your strategy to more guerrilla warfare.

    Your negates or streaks do not have to result in immediate enemy deaths to be effective.

    Yep but the big thing is people need to team up also. The reason why "ball groups" are really successful is because people want to play solo in a big open world team focused cyrodil. If you teamed up even 4-5 together it can change a lot. I used to play in a group of 4-6 and we would take out many "ball groups" because we worked together and all were very good at the game.

    So again stop trying to cater the game around solo player experience. We used to have 24 man groups and now people are complaining about 12 team groups. Lol legit play the mode how it is intended to be rather than being a dueler. If you wanna do that then challenge people outside of cyrodil. If you choose to play one yes you should lose to a group of 12 players and if you do beat them alone we'll that should say something about that group of 12 lol.

    Sure it is easier if you have a group fighting a ball group but it is not necessary. Some of us like to solo for various reasons and can still be effective.
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP

    PS5 NA

  • LouisaB75
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    What I would like is if skills that immobilise actually stopped any person in a ball group. Or if an aoe to slow down actually slowed them down. But as far as I have seen they just seem to be immune to everything I throw at them.
  • Kidgangster101
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    Stridig wrote: »
    I think people would care alot less about ball groups if it weren't for the stuck in combat bug. Ball groups don't have to play the map for objectives. They can simply get half a faction stuck in combat so that faction struggles to respond to actual fights. It's beyond annoying. And good luck killing yourself unless you're close to slaughter fish. For me, that's what ruins the fun. There are some very good players who have chosen to play in ball groups even though they can 1vx without any trouble and it baffles me why they would choose to do so. Maybe it's fun to just farm people. But that farming comes at a cost to everyone else.

    Yeah the stuck in combat bug is atrocious. (again they don't fix bugs and this is what brings down pvp numbers and forces them to quit).

    But no one should ever have to play alone. This map is designed for group play so if a very good player joins a group that's their choice /shrug
  • Stridig
    Stridig
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    Stridig wrote: »
    I think people would care alot less about ball groups if it weren't for the stuck in combat bug. Ball groups don't have to play the map for objectives. They can simply get half a faction stuck in combat so that faction struggles to respond to actual fights. It's beyond annoying. And good luck killing yourself unless you're close to slaughter fish. For me, that's what ruins the fun. There are some very good players who have chosen to play in ball groups even though they can 1vx without any trouble and it baffles me why they would choose to do so. Maybe it's fun to just farm people. But that farming comes at a cost to everyone else.

    Yeah the stuck in combat bug is atrocious. (again they don't fix bugs and this is what brings down pvp numbers and forces them to quit).

    But no one should ever have to play alone. This map is designed for group play so if a very good player joins a group that's their choice /shrug

    Totally agree. I'm not suggesting good players play solo. I was trying to point out that some of these very good players have been around for a long time and know what the impact of this playstyle does to overall performance and population of Cyrodiil.
    Enemy to many
    Friend to all
  • ShadowPaladin
    ShadowPaladin
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    Ball-Groups are the one thing which does ruin the fun for most people, especially casual ones, while playing in Cyro. You want to play / enjoy a bit of PvP. Therefore you are joining in on a castle fight. But what do you get if you are unlucky?! You will get a group of enemy players running around the outer walls, the inner yard or, in case of the home keeps, inside the inner keep, killing everyone in their path :angry: . Doing this over and over and over again. People will try to stop them, with methods as mentioned in the thread, but they won't succeed :cry: . If people can't see and reach any land (by being killed over and over again and not being able to kill the group), they will get frustrated and stop playing pvp. Worst case, they will never ever come back.

    I do know that everyone should be able to play as they want to, but ... BUT ... , if the playstyle of a few players interferes with the playstyle or more like the "fun of playing", respectively the experience of a majority of the playerbase, it is time to do something about it. This is the case with those Ball-Groups :triumph: !

    From my point of view the best thing to do would be to get down to the root of the trouble/problem. What would that be? For me this would be the possibility for groups to stack different effects and skills, as well as using them nearly indefinitely. This is the thing which needs to be looked at.

    Everytime I see those groups in actions or read about them here in the forum, I do think about what can be done about it. I do know that some may suggest, just limit the skill usage to one self and be done with it. It is something I too thought about. But this would only hurt the group-play and since ESO is a MMO, that is something no one would like :neutral: . With that in mind I did take a look at the other MMOs I played in the last 20 years and checked what they did to make PvP a bit more attractive to the majority of the playerbase. Two things did catch my eye. The first being a Debuff which increases the resources needed to use certain skills, while using the skills in a consecutive way during one and the same combat and the second one being a limitation to the use of support items (eg. potions) to *one* per ongoing battle/fight.

    Now. How would this look/work in ESO?

    Lets take the increase in resources needed. If for example you have a person or a group of people who do enter into battle and therefore are *IN COMBAT* the system would count this a being in *ONE* battle UNTIL the *being in combat* runs out! That would happen if the player or group gets killed or will kill the enemy with whom they are fighting. Now, while in combat the usage of certain skills - eg. healing or shield skills - would get an increase in resources needed to use them in a consecutive way. For example if you use a heal which needs normally 2,000 mana to use once, it will need 3,000 for a second usage while in combat for the same fight, 4,500 for the 3rd use, 6,750 for the 4th and so on. With that the usage of certain skills would be limited and players wouldn't be able to use them nearly indefinitely. Instead they would need to use them in a more tactical way. Spamming should/would be impossible with that. Ball-Groups for example would run out of resources within a short amount of time, so that they wouldn't be able to use certain skills and could be killed by others.
    Certainly, there are two things which do present a bit of a problem with this idea. The first being the fact that there is the so called *STUCK in combat bug*. This would need to be fixed, since it would interfere greatly, because to reset the increase in resource usage for certain skills you would need to get out of combat :confused: . The second thing would be the fact that it could be possible to exploit this system in the way that you can keep a person or a group in combat and therefore limiting their usages of certain skills. This could be fixed by a well timed timer for how long a person or group stays in combat.

    Now, about the limitation of support items in form of potions. I do know that we do have a cooldown timer on how often you can use a potion. But still. If you time it right and with certain setups, you can use potions over and over again through out one and the same fight. My idea is now to limit the usage while playing PvP to *ONE* use per fight, per potion variant. Potion variant meaning for me that there are two variants - resource regen potions (heal, mana, stam) and buff-potions (crit inc, more dmg, etc.), which you may use each once per fight. The reset for the usage will happen the moment a player gets out of combat, meaning the fight ended by one being killed by the other or one escaping. With this a potion spamming and an exaggerated, not to say artificially prolonged fight would be impossible.

  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    Ball-Groups are the one thing which does ruin the fun for most people, especially casual ones, while playing in Cyro. You want to play / enjoy a bit of PvP. Therefore you are joining in on a castle fight. But what do you get if you are unlucky?! You will get a group of enemy players running around the outer walls, the inner yard or, in case of the home keeps, inside the inner keep, killing everyone in their path :angry: . Doing this over and over and over again. People will try to stop them, with methods as mentioned in the thread, but they won't succeed :cry: . If people can't see and reach any land (by being killed over and over again and not being able to kill the group), they will get frustrated and stop playing pvp. Worst case, they will never ever come back.

    I do know that everyone should be able to play as they want to, but ... BUT ... , if the playstyle of a few players interferes with the playstyle or more like the "fun of playing", respectively the experience of a majority of the playerbase, it is time to do something about it. This is the case with those Ball-Groups :triumph: !

    From my point of view the best thing to do would be to get down to the root of the trouble/problem. What would that be? For me this would be the possibility for groups to stack different effects and skills, as well as using them nearly indefinitely. This is the thing which needs to be looked at.

    Everytime I see those groups in actions or read about them here in the forum, I do think about what can be done about it. I do know that some may suggest, just limit the skill usage to one self and be done with it. It is something I too thought about. But this would only hurt the group-play and since ESO is a MMO, that is something no one would like :neutral: . With that in mind I did take a look at the other MMOs I played in the last 20 years and checked what they did to make PvP a bit more attractive to the majority of the playerbase. Two things did catch my eye. The first being a Debuff which increases the resources needed to use certain skills, while using the skills in a consecutive way during one and the same combat and the second one being a limitation to the use of support items (eg. potions) to *one* per ongoing battle/fight.

    Now. How would this look/work in ESO?

    Lets take the increase in resources needed. If for example you have a person or a group of people who do enter into battle and therefore are *IN COMBAT* the system would count this a being in *ONE* battle UNTIL the *being in combat* runs out! That would happen if the player or group gets killed or will kill the enemy with whom they are fighting. Now, while in combat the usage of certain skills - eg. healing or shield skills - would get an increase in resources needed to use them in a consecutive way. For example if you use a heal which needs normally 2,000 mana to use once, it will need 3,000 for a second usage while in combat for the same fight, 4,500 for the 3rd use, 6,750 for the 4th and so on. With that the usage of certain skills would be limited and players wouldn't be able to use them nearly indefinitely. Instead they would need to use them in a more tactical way. Spamming should/would be impossible with that. Ball-Groups for example would run out of resources within a short amount of time, so that they wouldn't be able to use certain skills and could be killed by others.
    Certainly, there are two things which do present a bit of a problem with this idea. The first being the fact that there is the so called *STUCK in combat bug*. This would need to be fixed, since it would interfere greatly, because to reset the increase in resource usage for certain skills you would need to get out of combat :confused: . The second thing would be the fact that it could be possible to exploit this system in the way that you can keep a person or a group in combat and therefore limiting their usages of certain skills. This could be fixed by a well timed timer for how long a person or group stays in combat.

    Now, about the limitation of support items in form of potions. I do know that we do have a cooldown timer on how often you can use a potion. But still. If you time it right and with certain setups, you can use potions over and over again through out one and the same fight. My idea is now to limit the usage while playing PvP to *ONE* use per fight, per potion variant. Potion variant meaning for me that there are two variants - resource regen potions (heal, mana, stam) and buff-potions (crit inc, more dmg, etc.), which you may use each once per fight. The reset for the usage will happen the moment a player gets out of combat, meaning the fight ended by one being killed by the other or one escaping. With this a potion spamming and an exaggerated, not to say artificially prolonged fight would be impossible.

    @ShadowPaladin

    But you are complaining about group play in a big map...... There are modes designed for small scale for pvp like dueling and battleground. Why change a whole mode because you want to "play your way" and not be in a group with others. People shouldn't have to play your way either in a huge war pvp map just saying.

    Now some ideas like wats to disrupt them is good. But forcing people away from "ball groups" is a bad idea.
  • mzprx
    mzprx
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    loosej wrote: »
    ...[*] mounts disabled, all travel on foot (bypasses the in-combat bug)...

    but "travelling on foot" is the very reason that people are mad (meself included) about the "You Can't Mount In Combat" bug (we should probably start calling it a feature now, it's been in the game long enough) nobody would play this. people are not too overjoyed by having to run everywhere all the time in Cyrodiil..
  • dvonpm
    dvonpm
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    dvonpm wrote: »
    r34lian wrote: »

    Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.

    I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.

    Ok I'm probably going to regret telling you this, but streak screws up pushes all the time.

    I've seen other ball group members playing solo and doing this to my group, and it definitely makes things harder. But it's all about timing. Random ccs and negates won't be as effective.

    You need to pay attention to when a push is about to happen and disrupt.

    You need to watch cc immunity too. This too makes it harder for you because people are throwing the kitchen sink at the ball and you have no control over that and probly can't see half of it.

    The group coordination really puts you at a disadvantage, no matter how good you are. You need to compensate for that.

    So your job is pressure...hectoring and constant stress on resources, while keeping yourself out of pulls. Eventually you will wear them down. You can use defensive negate on enemy pulls as well. Or just carpet/stagger drops if you can work with others.

    Practice watching for cc immunity and timing that 3 seconds and splitting the group with your streak. You'll see it definitely messes with movements and momentum.

    There are other things which I will leave unsaid because I don't want to make this too easy for you 😆

    All of this is very annoying, I understand. But the real thing that causes the disadvantage is the coordination and buff/debuff management. That will be true no matter what sets are, so try to change how think of your strategy to more guerrilla warfare.

    Your negates or streaks do not have to result in immediate enemy deaths to be effective.

    Yep but the big thing is people need to team up also. The reason why "ball groups" are really successful is because people want to play solo in a big open world team focused cyrodil. If you teamed up even 4-5 together it can change a lot. I used to play in a group of 4-6 and we would take out many "ball groups" because we worked together and all were very good at the game.

    So again stop trying to cater the game around solo player experience. We used to have 24 man groups and now people are complaining about 12 team groups. Lol legit play the mode how it is intended to be rather than being a dueler. If you wanna do that then challenge people outside of cyrodil. If you choose to play one yes you should lose to a group of 12 players and if you do beat them alone we'll that should say something about that group of 12 lol.

    Lol all true. But 78 lone wolves can temporarily work together.

    I have also been on the side of thr "78 solo pugs finally beat the ball after 45 minutes of ruining each other's cc's" and it is really gratifying to finally beat them down.

    And it's kind of fun to watch people work it out when you know they aren't grouped. Sometimes they do a pretty good job.

    I'm a sucker for underdogs what can I say lol.
  • KaosWarMonk
    KaosWarMonk
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    Players ganging up to gank everyone else in a PvP game?

    I'm shocked!

  • TaSheen
    TaSheen
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Players ganging up to gank everyone else in a PvP game?

    I'm shocked!

    You forgot the /s....
    ______________________________________________________

    But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.

    PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....
  • ShadowPaladin
    ShadowPaladin
    ✭✭✭✭

    @ShadowPaladin

    But you are complaining about group play in a big map...... There are modes designed for small scale for pvp like dueling and battleground. Why change a whole mode because you want to "play your way" and not be in a group with others. People shouldn't have to play your way either in a huge war pvp map just saying.

    Now some ideas like wats to disrupt them is good. But forcing people away from "ball groups" is a bad idea.

    Sorry if you misunderstood something. But, I am NOT complaining about group play on a big pvp map. I do like the group play, I do like joining up a Zerg-Group now and then and I don't have problems being rushed over by 12-30 blues/reds/purples, when they take over keeps to get scrolls or emp. What I do complain about is, groups exploiting existing systems and stuff in way which does greatly influence the game play for a majority in an extreme negative way. To name it - "Ball-Groups" - , which in 99% of the time only run around certain keeps, killing everything in their way to get kills and AP, but not doing anything else (eg. taking over the keep).

    If there were some really good and practical counters - eg. a siege weapon which does damage accordingly to the number of players hit at the same time (the more are hit, the higher the damage will be ... 2 players = 4k dmg instantly / per player... 12 players = 24k dmg instantly / per player) or a skill which can't be blocked or negated and which would cc a group with a 100% chance for a certain time frame, depending on how many players are hit at the same time (2 players = 2 sec cc ... 12 players = 12 sec cc) - I wouldn't say a thing. But sadly, there are no such things :( . All that there is atm are some tactics which may or may not work (mostly not) and some well-intentioned advice, which also mostly won't help :neutral: .

  • RetPing
    RetPing
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Neoauspex wrote: »
    Lady_Light wrote: »
    Siege, find a sorc to negate, and... azureblight.

    First two work, azureblight doesn't unfortunately. Wish it did

    I have tried AB on my warden, I can do about 5-6k damge to several member with an explosion.
    Build is not super optimized.

    Building stacks is not super hard, I have two single dots and two aoe, growing swarm and. soul splittin trap.
    When possible use a lighting heavy.

    Unfortunately I am always alone with that, you would need at least 2 or 3 people with it to be effective.
  • WaywardArgonian
    WaywardArgonian
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As someone who plays in a miniball (5-6 ppl), Azureblight can definitely hurt us. Ofc it won't kill us by itself, but if someone is hitting us with it in combination with other anti-group tools such as siege, it is definitely noticeable, and it will contribute to a wipe if we play badly or are under too much pressure.

    Also remember that what looks like it's immortal on the outside because it's not visibly taking damage might be on the brink of collapsing because sustain, resources and ultis are a thing. Prolonged pressure definitely works. Of course this becomes easier for organized groups to deal with the more people they have, but I don't play in 12-man groups for a reason.
    PC/EU altaholic | Smallscale & ballgroup healer | Former Empanada of Ravenwatch | @ degonyte in-game | Nibani Ilath-Pal (AD Nightblade) - AvA rank 50 | Jehanne Teymour (AD Sorcerer) - AvA rank 50 | Niria Ilath-Pal (AD Templar) - AvA rank 50
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShadowPaladin

    But you are complaining about group play in a big map...... There are modes designed for small scale for pvp like dueling and battleground. Why change a whole mode because you want to "play your way" and not be in a group with others. People shouldn't have to play your way either in a huge war pvp map just saying.

    Now some ideas like wats to disrupt them is good. But forcing people away from "ball groups" is a bad idea.

    Sorry if you misunderstood something. But, I am NOT complaining about group play on a big pvp map. I do like the group play, I do like joining up a Zerg-Group now and then and I don't have problems being rushed over by 12-30 blues/reds/purples, when they take over keeps to get scrolls or emp. What I do complain about is, groups exploiting existing systems and stuff in way which does greatly influence the game play for a majority in an extreme negative way. To name it - "Ball-Groups" - , which in 99% of the time only run around certain keeps, killing everything in their way to get kills and AP, but not doing anything else (eg. taking over the keep).

    If there were some really good and practical counters - eg. a siege weapon which does damage accordingly to the number of players hit at the same time (the more are hit, the higher the damage will be ... 2 players = 4k dmg instantly / per player... 12 players = 24k dmg instantly / per player) or a skill which can't be blocked or negated and which would cc a group with a 100% chance for a certain time frame, depending on how many players are hit at the same time (2 players = 2 sec cc ... 12 players = 12 sec cc) - I wouldn't say a thing. But sadly, there are no such things :( . All that there is atm are some tactics which may or may not work (mostly not) and some well-intentioned advice, which also mostly won't help :neutral: .

    Ok but the counterplay is to ignore them if they aren't doing much besides that. If you and others just ran past said keep them would get bored and run away though or it would disband. I've been on all sides (group, no group, bombing, 1 v X, ECT) and they all work the same.

    If I'm trying to 1 v X for a clip and no one follows me then I am now wasting my time. If I take over a keep and leave a walk down inviting people for easy access thinking it's an easy retake and no one shows I get bored and leave. If I have a scroll out in the middle of no where trying to lure people to it to farm ap. Guess what? Waste of time if no one shows and they go about their business lol.

    But unfortunately far ing ap is very important especially emp runs. So in order for them to remove all different ap farms they need to rework the entire emp system. Alone with no one really caring about winning the map for the cycle because the end of season rewards need massive improvements. Like if they made reward for say huge gold payouts or exclusive styles for each season to the winning side you could probably persuade people to participate and try towards the objective. But then pve community would have a meltdown so they would never do that unfortunately.
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