Allyah wrote: »

...

I, of course, never mentioned that it wasn't a fail. Luckily (or unluckily?) for you, you're assumption that I don't think it is a fail was correct. Let's assume that everyone is self-sufficient as far as their gear and items go... are you telling me trading is the only thing people do together in an MMO?
Your statement proves nothing except that you clearly didn't think what you wrote through.

lol, no, but it is the foundation of any MMO economy. One of the primary discussions in THIS thread is the economy and economic activity, along with how not having or having an AH impacts them. Clearly you didn't think of that. Economies are based on transactions, or market activity. So if you are a crafter, and actually want to make goods to sell, instead of just for yourself as if you are in some single player game, instead of the MMO we are supposed to be in...maybe you didn't think that through either.

Or perhaps you can come up with other basics that crafters would pursue when it comes to acquiring raw materials or selling their goods to others, BESIDES trading or transacting? Would love to hear it.

Ironic when someone spends time accusing others of not thinking when apparently they do very little of it themselves.

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

1) I am rich.
2) As I've stated before, I want what's best for this game in the long run. I'd like to see it grow. Taking out something that is all but taken for granted in an MMO isn't good for it no matter how you slice it. Look at the numbers on this poll if you don't believe me.
3) It's not that it's hard to get rich, it's just a pain in the ass to connect a seller to a buyer right now. (Or vice versa of course)

You and I are just kinda going in circles at this point, Brennan. I feel like you're just being obstinate for the hell of it.

Look at his other posts. He's trolling. Period.

Dyvim wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

1) I am rich.
2) As I've stated before, I want what's best for this game in the long run. I'd like to see it grow. Taking out something that is all but taken for granted in an MMO isn't good for it no matter how you slice it. Look at the numbers on this poll if you don't believe me.
3) It's not that it's hard to get rich, it's just a pain in the ass to connect a seller to a buyer right now. (Or vice versa of course)

You and I are just kinda going in circles at this point, Brennan. I feel like you're just being obstinate for the hell of it.

That is possible, but I think he honestly just doesn't have the background, experience or education to get it. That isn't being mean, it is my honest assessment after reading his posts in thread after thread. He always falls back on the same thing, instead of trying to defend what he posts when his errors are pointed out....and that fallback is "this brand new MMO, which will change over time, doesn't have it now, therefore it must be indicative of some obtuse design brilliance - that no one can logically defend and that the devs can't explain...Change is bad, although MMOs inherently change...etc."

That is the best he has got, while everything from10+ years of AHs in MMOs to basic economic law and market fundamentals can be damned as far as he is concerned, if he understood them....

I have tried to engage in this conversation. I have stated my opinion and you, Methjester, et al. have only hurled childish insults towards myself and every other individual that is against an AH. I would be happy to quote those insults not just in this thread @Dyvim‌ but also in the two Inventory Management threads you started and engaged in.

If you want to limit the discussion to only people that have a degree in Business, Finance, and/or Economics, you're going to have a one-sided, lonely discussion. My degree is in Computer Science but that is totally irrelevant to this. The only qualification to engage in this discussion or any other is that I pay for and play Elder Scrolls Online.

You want to limit people's choices. Everyone must trade in a centralized market. If you don't like the price, **** off - One Store to Rule Them All. There is no comparison shopping. There is no choice.

I don't - I want to choose whether I buy Dwarven Oil from Store 2 for 200g or Store 3 for 500g. Some people want to buy it from Store 2 and sell it in Store 3. Some people have extra Dwarven Oil laying around and your belief is they should sell it for 200g and not 500g. You want everyone to buy from Store 1 and only Store 1. That is not a good thing - in my uneducated, uninformed. character and intelligence lacking, non-Business, Finance, Economics degree having opinion.

Brennan wrote: »

...You want to limit people's choices. Everyone must trade in a centralized market. If you don't like the price, **** off - One Store to Rule Them All. There is no comparison shopping. There is no choice.

I don't - I want to choose whether I buy Dwarven Oil from Store 2 for 200g or Store 3 for 500g. Some people want to buy it from Store 2 and sell it in Store 3. Some people have extra Dwarven Oil laying around and your belief is they should sell it for 200g and not 500g. You want everyone to buy from Store 1 and only Store 1. That is not a good thing - in my uneducated, uninformed. character and intelligence lacking, non-Business, Finance, Economics degree having opinion.

All right, man. I am not going to try and reason with you anymore, honestly, because I think at this point you just are not going to get it. There are few things you can do to limit peoples choices more in economics than relegating them to small markets, with arbitrary segregation, with little or no information. That is about as limiting as it gets. That is what this game offers. Your degree in CS isn't irrelevant...it should reinforce for you the development life cycle model for MMOs, and how change is baked into it...and how the feature set at launch for them is never complete, and will change. You should know this, and you should know that any argument, like the one you always fall back on, of this is how the game is at launch therefore it should stay that way, is completely foolish in MMO land.

You fail to see that "choosing" between 5 small markets with poor information tools, limited buyers and sellers, and inherently less competition is far and away a worse option than having access to a large market with MANY TIMES more buyers and sellers, hence orders of magnitude of greater competition - all with better market information baked into the system, accessible to everyone. COMPETITION is what drives prices down. Larger markets inherently have more of it . Also, please stop undervaluing the idea that EVERYONE that uses an AH has INSTANT access to the best pricing data available...and moreso, if it is a good AH implementation that shows bid/ask spreads, historical data, etc. That is huge and is the cornerstone of having a fair, efficient marketplace. Again, this game DOES NOT HAVE THAT now.

Dyvim wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

...You want to limit people's choices. Everyone must trade in a centralized market. If you don't like the price, **** off - One Store to Rule Them All. There is no comparison shopping. There is no choice.

I don't - I want to choose whether I buy Dwarven Oil from Store 2 for 200g or Store 3 for 500g. Some people want to buy it from Store 2 and sell it in Store 3. Some people have extra Dwarven Oil laying around and your belief is they should sell it for 200g and not 500g. You want everyone to buy from Store 1 and only Store 1. That is not a good thing - in my uneducated, uninformed. character and intelligence lacking, non-Business, Finance, Economics degree having opinion.

All right, man. I am not going to try and reason with you anymore, honestly, because I think at this point you just are not going to get it.

I said you were being trolled 20 posts ago. Look at the guys message history. Stop wasting your time. He will not listen. He's enjoying your long posts. Seriously... look at his profile and check out his loooooong antagonizing post history in other threads. You will not find him agreeing with one single person on one subject.

You can't win.

Dyvim wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

...You want to limit people's choices. Everyone must trade in a centralized market. If you don't like the price, **** off - One Store to Rule Them All. There is no comparison shopping. There is no choice.

I don't - I want to choose whether I buy Dwarven Oil from Store 2 for 200g or Store 3 for 500g. Some people want to buy it from Store 2 and sell it in Store 3. Some people have extra Dwarven Oil laying around and your belief is they should sell it for 200g and not 500g. You want everyone to buy from Store 1 and only Store 1. That is not a good thing - in my uneducated, uninformed. character and intelligence lacking, non-Business, Finance, Economics degree having opinion.

All right, man. I am not going to try and reason with you anymore, honestly, because I think at this point you just are not going to get it. There are few things you can do to limit peoples choices more in economics than relegating them to small markets, with arbitrary segregation, with little or no information. That is about as limiting as it gets. That is what this game offers. Your degree in CS isn't irrelevant...it should reinforce for you the development life cycle model for MMOs, and how change is baked into it...and how the feature set at launch for them is never complete, and will change. You should know this, and you should know that any argument, like the one you always fall back on, of this is how the game is at launch therefore it should stay that way, is completely foolish in MMO land.

I want to start by thanking you for a well reasoned and insult free response.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in another thread we discussed Eve Online a bit. A game that has, at least in my opinion, one of the best markets/market systems of any MMO. It, like ESO, is single shard or megaserver. But even it's markets are segregated by region and that is with a subscription base of 500k.

Five million people signed up for Beta for ESO (Source). Let's split that down the middle to account for the two servers (NA and EU). Let's further split both of those in half to account for those who were upset at the P2P pricing model. So each server has over 1 million players - Twice as many as Eve Online. I can not speak specifics on how daunting it would be to code a database that massive nor can either of us truly speak intelligently though sheer speculation based on other MMOs what effect that would have on this economy (like it or not, it still has an economy).

Dyvim wrote: »

You fail to see that "choosing" between 5 small markets with poor information tools, limited buyers and sellers, and inherently less competition is far and away a worse option than having access to a large market with MANY TIMES more buyers and sellers, hence orders of magnitude of greater competition - all with better market information baked into the system, accessible to everyone. COMPETITION is what drives prices down. Larger markets inherently have more of it . Also, please stop undervaluing the idea that EVERYONE that uses an AH has INSTANT access to the best pricing data available...and moreso, if it is a good AH implementation that shows bid/ask spreads, historical data, etc. That is huge and is the cornerstone of having a fair, efficient marketplace. Again, this game DOES NOT HAVE THAT now.

I think information tools, as you stated, are a great idea. I played Eve Online for six years. Some people still call it, "Spreadsheets In Space" but I would not be against historical buy/sell margin indices.

I would also be cautiously (very cautiously) supportive of zone markets. Not global but for each zone. Done right, they would be much easier to code and maintain.

The only concern I have with that is the creation of 3 Jitas in each alliance. In each market you can only sell stuff you find in that zone. Otherwise you end up with people selling everything in Elden Root and ignoring all the others.

Maybe it is my lack of expertise in your area @Dyvim that has me thinking the way that I do. The purpose of trading is to get the best price possible for what you're selling and buying. A global AH prohibits choice and since "best" price is relative the only thing we have to compare it to is itself.

Going back to your NASDAQ and NYSE comparison - do you also trade in foreign markets if there is a better deal there? It's good to have that choice.

I do think Zenimax can learn a lot from CCP. That is not to say that they should just make Eve Online in Tamriel, but they could learn from the challenges that CCP has faced in the single shard endeavor that is, at least in my opinion, a great game. Most notably, again my opinion, in it's true sandbox environment. The devs there dropped game mechanics (and continue to do so) and told players, "here's all this stuff - go forth and kill stuff".

I think (again opinion) that Zenimax has tried to do the same thing with the Guild Store mechanic. Some people have been okay with it (40% polled last I checked) and 60% are not. I think, as Methjester suggested earlier, that excluding even a basic search function was a cataclysmic fail. It's great if you want to do this differently but man, you have got to deliver on it or there is going to be a riot (present company included )

TL;DR
- I am still not in support of a global AH
- I think historical data of items bought and sold is a good idea
- I think the exclusion of a basic text based DB search in the Guild Stores was a huge misstep.
- My favorite food is breakfast food.

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

Dyvim wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

1) I am rich.
2) As I've stated before, I want what's best for this game in the long run. I'd like to see it grow. Taking out something that is all but taken for granted in an MMO isn't good for it no matter how you slice it. Look at the numbers on this poll if you don't believe me.
3) It's not that it's hard to get rich, it's just a pain in the ass to connect a seller to a buyer right now. (Or vice versa of course)

You and I are just kinda going in circles at this point, Brennan. I feel like you're just being obstinate for the hell of it.

That is possible, but I think he honestly just doesn't have the background, experience or education to get it. That isn't being mean, it is my honest assessment after reading his posts in thread after thread. He always falls back on the same thing, instead of trying to defend what he posts when his errors are pointed out....and that fallback is "this brand new MMO, which will change over time, doesn't have it now, therefore it must be indicative of some obtuse design brilliance - that no one can logically defend and that the devs can't explain...Change is bad, although MMOs inherently change...etc."

That is the best he has got, while everything from10+ years of AHs in MMOs to basic economic law and market fundamentals can be damned as far as he is concerned, if he understood them....

I have tried to engage in this conversation. I have stated my opinion and you, Methjester, et al. have only hurled childish insults towards myself and every other individual that is against an AH. I would be happy to quote those insults not just in this thread @Dyvim‌ but also in the two Inventory Management threads you started and engaged in.

If you want to limit the discussion to only people that have a degree in Business, Finance, and/or Economics, you're going to have a one-sided, lonely discussion. My degree is in Computer Science but that is totally irrelevant to this. The only qualification to engage in this discussion or any other is that I pay for and play Elder Scrolls Online.

You want to limit people's choices. Everyone must trade in a centralized market. If you don't like the price, **** off - One Store to Rule Them All. There is no comparison shopping. There is no choice.

I don't - I want to choose whether I buy Dwarven Oil from Store 2 for 200g or Store 3 for 500g. Some people want to buy it from Store 2 and sell it in Store 3. Some people have extra Dwarven Oil laying around and your belief is they should sell it for 200g and not 500g. You want everyone to buy from Store 1 and only Store 1. That is not a good thing - in my uneducated, uninformed. character and intelligence lacking, non-Business, Finance, Economics degree having opinion.

How does having an AH limit where you can trade? You can still use /trade or /zone, and you can still trade with guild members. This isn't all about you. If you want to overpay or make it a big production of trading without an AH this will still be available to you.

Unless you're saying that everyone would use an AH if they had one. That might kind of *** all over your argument though, huh?

If there were a global AH everyone would likely use it.

Which makes the "member of up to 5 guilds" somewhat obsolete and no longer unique to the game.

But just because everyone uses something doesn't make it good or the right thing to do in this game.

Tell you what, go over to the game forum of any other MMO and start ranting about how you can only be in one guild at a time - start making multiple threads about how the devs are just lazy - "They do it in ESO - it needs to be done here!" Come back and tell me what kind of response you get.

Dyvim wrote: »

@brennan

If you want to bring up ancient history, I was responding in kind to that person, as he was questioning the maturity of anyone that wouldn't accept and adapt to the current feature set, as if an MMO at launch was some holy epiphany with its features carved in stone...in other words, if he wanted to question other players maturity that were lobbying for change, I felt it was more than appropriate to question other aspects of his character...lol. Seemed more than fair. Context matters, as I told you back then.

I'll go back and read it. I'll have to scrub my eyes from all the inventory management whining.

I recall thinking, "Who does this guy think he is?" and that particular post was a straw/camel's back but I may have misread it. I do make mistakes and often snap at people for the wrong reasons. As much as I have, in fact, intentionally aggravated you - I owe you another look at it.

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

[...]
You and I are just kinda going in circles at this point, Brennan. I feel like you're just being obstinate for the hell of it.

That's interesting coming from you.

Dyvim wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

...
I, of course, never mentioned that it wasn't a fail. Luckily (or unluckily?) for you, you're assumption that I don't think it is a fail was correct. Let's assume that everyone is self-sufficient as far as their gear and items go... are you telling me trading is the only thing people do together in an MMO?
Your statement proves nothing except that you clearly didn't think what you wrote through.

lol, no, but it is the foundation of any MMO economy. One of the primary discussions in THIS thread is the economy and economic activity, along with how not having or having an AH impacts them. Clearly you didn't think of that. Economies are based on transactions, or market activity. So if you are a crafter, and actually want to make goods to sell, instead of just for yourself as if you are in some single player game, instead of the MMO we are supposed to be in...maybe you didn't think that through either.

Or perhaps you can come up with other basics that crafters would pursue when it comes to acquiring raw materials or selling their goods to others, BESIDES trading or transacting? Would love to hear it.

Ironic when someone spends time accusing others of not thinking when apparently they do very little of it themselves.

I would love to hear you explain to me why this is. Your continued assumptions about what I do and don't know about something are a little interesting. Last time I checked, I was the only one in my head.
Crafters can already sell anything not bound that they would like to sell. So... looks like your point on that is out for the count. And no, they don't need to buy the materials. They are available everywhere.

Dyvim wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

1) I am rich.
2) As I've stated before, I want what's best for this game in the long run. I'd like to see it grow. Taking out something that is all but taken for granted in an MMO isn't good for it no matter how you slice it. Look at the numbers on this poll if you don't believe me.
3) It's not that it's hard to get rich, it's just a pain in the ass to connect a seller to a buyer right now. (Or vice versa of course)

You and I are just kinda going in circles at this point, Brennan. I feel like you're just being obstinate for the hell of it.

That is possible, but I think he honestly just doesn't have the background, experience or education to get it. Look at the puerile arguments he TRIES to make. That isn't being mean, it is my honest assessment after reading his posts in thread after thread. He always falls back on the same thing, instead of trying to defend what he posts when his errors are pointed out....and that fallback is "this brand new MMO, which will change over time, doesn't have it now, therefore it must be indicative of some obtuse design brilliance - that no one can logically defend and that the devs can't explain...Change is bad, although MMOs inherently change...etc."

That is the best he has got, while everything from10+ years of AHs in MMOs to basic economic law and market fundamentals can be damned as far as he is concerned, if he understood them....

Your reading comprehension needs a little work. As does your inability to say anything without making an assumption. Feel like a broken record having to repeat that word so often but, hey, I can only call something what it is. Assumption in bold in case you needed help finding it. Also Brennan keeps falling back on the same arguments because you have failed to prove anything Brennan says as wrong. You have also failed to point out anything erroneous. You have an opinion about something. Great. Doesn't mean others' opinions are wrong. Also, doesn't help that you can't make an argument worth listening to. Or maybe that's one of the others... it's hard to keep track. You all keep saying the same thing.

Calling someone out on their what you think about their background, experience, and education is real classy.

Dyvim wrote: »

Its not a matter of winning, its a matter of trying to have an informed discussion and supporting your view points. There may be no right answer, just answers that are better than others. At this point, however, its clear that @brennan is not a good discussion partner in this thread. If you cant understand or grasp the equivalent of the "sky is blue, if you don't understand why, google it on your own, because the rest of us already do..." then you just are not going to be able to have this discussion.

More assumptions that someone can't understand your point. How refreshing. It's great that you can understand your own point but it still seems like you need help understand other people's points.

Allyah wrote: »

...I would love to hear you explain to me why this is. Your continued assumptions about what I do and don't know about something are a little interesting. Last time I checked, I was the only one in my head.
Crafters can already sell anything not bound that they would like to sell. So... looks like your point on that is out for the count. And no, they don't need to buy the materials. They are available everywhere.

With you attitude and lack of reading comprehension I doubt anyone can explain anything to you. I am not assuming what you do and dont know, your posts do a fine job of broadcasting your deficiencies. Also, I am certainly not willing to stipulate what is or isn't in YOUR head at this point, wouldn't surprise me if you hear all kinds of "voices"...lol.

What the heck, I'll keep it short. Some crafters don't like to gather. Some players do like to gather. Having a AH system that easily facilitates transactions between players is a tried and true method, over 10+ years of heavy utilization in AAA MMOs, to get this done. It isn't a question of "can" they sell it...it is a question of what do they have to go through to sell it, and how efficient is that sale going to be in the small, fractured guild markets they have available to them, versus a full featured AH with orders of magnitude more buyers and sellers, which means more competition, which means more efficient pricing that goes hand in hand with the more efficient supply/demand/price curves that large markets inherently have.

Dyvim wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

...I would love to hear you explain to me why this is. Your continued assumptions about what I do and don't know about something are a little interesting. Last time I checked, I was the only one in my head.
Crafters can already sell anything not bound that they would like to sell. So... looks like your point on that is out for the count. And no, they don't need to buy the materials. They are available everywhere.

With you attitude and lack of reading comprehension I doubt anyone can explain anything to you. Also, I am certainly not willing to stipulate what is or isn't in YOUR head at this point, wouldn't surprise me if you hear all kinds of "voices"...lol.

What the heck, I'll keep it short. Some crafters don't like to gather. Some players do like to gather. Having a AH system that easily facilitates transactions between players is a tried and true method, over 10+ years of heavy utilization in AAA MMOs, to get this done. It isn't a question of "can" they sell it...it is a question of what do they have to go through to sell it, and how efficient is that sale going to be in the small, fractured guild markets they have available to them, versus a full featured AH with orders of magnitude more buyers and sellers, which means more competition, which means more efficient pricing that goes hand in hand with the more efficient supply/demand/price curves that large markets inherently have.

I was talking about explaining why an economy is the foundation of an MMO. Or rather, why it must be so. And, if possible, explain why an AH is the system needed for an economy to work. Oh, if you would, make it something that is more than just your opinion. I've already heard that from you and others (which would be okay) but I'm seriously unimpressed with the lack of logic in most of these posts.

@Kiwi‌
I know. And the horse doesn't even deserve it. What is wrong with me?!

Dyvim wrote: »

Pancakes and bacon for me, pls. Also it isn't a matter of not being able to manage. Thank god for wykkyds mail bounce addon though...lol. It is this simple...when you were a kid, there was nothing wrong with riding a bike everywhere...when you got older and got a car, going back to a bike for most of your transportation needs would seem silly and ridiculously inefficient.

That is EXACTLY the proposition this game puts forward with its lack of features/lack of competitiveness with other modern MMOs in a few areas, like AH and inventory/crafting mat management. Sure you can deal with it, just like you can ride a bike still...but given other alternatives you have grown used to, it is just completely ridiculous, oh, and btw, you are having to pay to ride that bike.

Heh. Some people ride a bike to stay in shape. Some ride a bike to lower their carbon footprint. Some people ride a bike because it's fun. But **** bikes because you think their inefficient and silly. Bad analogy is bad.

Dyvim wrote: »

Poor reading comp skills are poor. I stated that transactions or trade between players was the basis of an ECONOMY IN AN MMO. Not that an economy was the foundation of an MMO, although certainly an economic system is an integral part of any modern AAA MMO. As far as AHs being needed, they are the best solution to the requirements to allow players to easily transact in game. There are a number of reason for this, but most of them revolve around the market fundamentals inherent in large markets versus less efficient smaller markets. If you need education as to why larger markets are inherently more efficient and produce more rational supply/demand/price curves, along with more effective competition, than smaller markets, I suggest you do some googling and educate yourself. I have no interest in trying to teach you the basics of econ 101.

If we were to subscribe to your thinking, they are the only solution. It is inconceivable that 60% of respondents have decided to throw their hands in the air after a month and just say, "This **** ain't working!"

I can concede that a basic text based search function in the guild stores is needed. The fact that this feature wasn't included is ludicrous and I suspect continues to agitate the "There's no ******* Auction House!" crowd.

Pricing history is also not a bad gig.

The problem isn't that there isn't an Auction House. The problem is that players do not know the value of anything - which is not unreasonable considering the newness of the game. In my opinion, with time and more features added to the guild stores and not just scrapping the whole thing in favor of an Auction House, things will settle down.

Elder Scrolls Online does not have an Auction House.
There is no indication from ZOS that an Auction House will be added within the year.

So why not wait a year and see what happens? Honestly, what have you got to lose?