Set MDW scaling to 6300 WD to align with proc damage standards.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

I've played MDW for a decade. It's been my favorite set whether meta or not. It's time intensive to grind, and we all did it twice. This is an insulting nerf.

If MDW has a million users, then I'm one of them.
If MDW has one user, that's me.
If MDW has no users, then I have left this realm.
If the world is against MDW, then I am against the world.

Kite42 · January 30

What's MDW?

xylena_lazarow · January 30

Stinging Slashes set, aka Master Dual Wield

Kite42 · January 30

Ah, gotcha.

Galeriano · January 30

That would be counterproductive with the whole idea behind the change which was to nerf the strenght of that weapons. Making it 6,3k wep dmg to reach 1635 proc value would basically mean a massive buff since there is no cap on new scaling and that would be completly opposite to what devs have planned. Going over 6k wep/spell dmg is really not that hard these days, DKs running with tanky sets like daedric trickery are reaching up to 7k selfbuffed.

Things get nerfed when they overperform and are being abused, get used to it. It's definietly not the first thing that went onto the chopping block because rise in popularity and definietly not the last one.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

Galeriano wrote: »

Things get nerfed when they overperform and are being abused, get used to it. It's definietly not the first thing that went onto the chopping block because rise in popularity and definietly not the last one.

It was nerfed because it was popular, not because it was overpowered. Those 40k hp builds are for group target focus and aren't doing anything except stalemating on their own. MDW is only ubiquitous because the other options for spammables or pressure were nerfed into the ground.

If you want to address the "tanks that do damage" problem maybe look at spammable burst heals and Undeath?

React · January 30

It is overperforming, and this nerf is not only justified, but completely reasonable. To reach the old damage values, you'll now need to actually invest into damage. If they lowered the threshold to the value you've suggested, it would hardly change the set whatsoever, and would in fact buff it significantly for a variety of builds as many classes can easily exceed 6.3k WD with little additional investment into damage.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

React wrote: »

It is overperforming

Respectfully, what is your reasoning for saying it overperforms?

I see it simply "performing" while every other comparable pressure tool underperforms.

This is also another situation where DoT pressure is nerfed, while HoT heals stay untouched.

Tyrant_Tim · January 30

Master’s Dual Wield got the perfect adjustment.

If you want to use the arena set to great effect, build into your damage. It’s that easy. Pretty much every successful Templar has been doing that since Update 35, so just stack damage with sets like Riptide, New Moon Acolyte, and Balorgh and get away from other proc-sets.

Stacking proc-sets was ultimately the problem here, and now you can’t do it as effectively.

Problem solved.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Stacking proc-sets was ultimately the problem here

Other than the complaints of players who don't understand their death recaps, what was the problem? The sets that actually "play the game for you" like Rushing Agony or Snow Treaders were untouched. Stacking absurd amounts of healing, sustain, mitigation, and speed in order to never die is totally fine, but stacking damage needs to be nerfed? Minmaxed defenses still outpace minmaxed offense by a wide margin. Pressure damage already barely exists. Rallying Cry is even more centralizing and brainless than any pressure proc, yet rarely gets mentioned because it doesn't show up on death recaps.

Tyrant_Tim · January 30

What is your opposition to wearing sets that increase your weapon and spell damage?

xylena_lazarow · January 30

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

What is your opposition to wearing sets that increase your weapon and spell damage?

Because there's nothing for stat sets to buff on a pressure build when ZOS nerfed all the pressure skills into the ground. There's nothing for stat sets to buff when your class lacks a usable melee spammable. MDW filled holes in the build system and helped make pressure playstyle viable.

If spellcrafting gives us viable pressure skills (e.g. sticky dots) and melee spammables, I'll gladly run stat sets.

Imagine Tekken or Smash but with HoTs and spammable burst heals. That would be ESO without pressure.

Tyrant_Tim · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Imagine Tekken or Smash but with HoTs and spammable burst heals. That would be ESO without pressure.

I get what you mean. 😂

Unfortunately for everyone else, Necromancer has been chosen as the DoT class finally.

If the Necromancer Blastbones change goes live, every DoT used by that class will get a 20% increase over night, and that would be enough to warrant building Weapon and Spell Damage.

Also want to add, players will still be able to run pressure builds even without Master’s DW with low W/S damage builds, all you need is Vateshran Ice Staff and Draugrkin, or Relequen because that set alone has twice the power of Way of the Fire.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If the Necromancer Blastbones change goes live, every DoT used by that class will get a 20% increase over night, and that would be enough to warrant building Weapon and Spell Damage... Also want to add, players will still be able to run pressure builds even without Master’s DW with low W/S damage builds, all you need is Vateshran Ice Staff and Draugrkin, or Relequen because that set alone has twice the power of Way of the Fire.

Necro will still rely on procs for pressure in PvP because it lacks class damage sources for that 20% to buff. And sure it's not like pressure builds are literally dead or anything, just sad to see them keep nerfing pressure for no good reason. I was already thinking to move from WoF to Draugrkin to make up the damage, losing some survivability.

Galeriano · January 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Things get nerfed when they overperform and are being abused, get used to it. It's definietly not the first thing that went onto the chopping block because rise in popularity and definietly not the last one.

It was nerfed because it was popular, not because it was overpowered. Those 40k hp builds are for group target focus and aren't doing anything except stalemating on their own. MDW is only ubiquitous because the other options for spammables or pressure were nerfed into the ground.

If you want to address the "tanks that do damage" problem maybe look at spammable burst heals and Undeath?

It became popular because in current state of the game it is overpowered. No matter what excuse You will come up with, this is not a random coincidene that so many people is running with that weapon right now. Master DW became a meta because it turns twin slashes into strong spammable and even stronger DoT. Skill alone is already pretty decent considering how potent hemmorhaging status effect is so turning it into spammable and even stronger DoT is just a no brainer.

Strong heals are not tank exclusive strong spammable+strong DoT at the same time is master DW exclusive.

silentxthreat · January 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I've played MDW for a decade. It's been my favorite set whether meta or not. It's time intensive to grind, and we all did it twice. This is an insulting nerf.

If MDW has a million users, then I'm one of them.
If MDW has one user, that's me.
If MDW has no users, then I have left this realm.
If the world is against MDW, then I am against the world.

its a buff if you build for damage. its only a nerf if you build to be a super tank which is a needed nerf especially in pvp

MashmalloMan · January 31

Many of you are missing the point of OP, he didn't say a nerf shouldn't be justified. Scaling is fine, but the current stat threshold is way too high. The 6300 is a standard used for most proc sets they've implemented in the past and they clearly think that is a good standard, so why is this weapon so much higher? At the rate it increases in damage, it doesn't currently match other spammables in upfront damage, defeating the purpose of the weapon set bonus.

xylena_lazarow · January 31

silentxthreat wrote: »

its a buff if you build for damage. its only a nerf if you build to be a super tank which is a needed nerf especially in pvp

I run a 64 stam attribute damage build that specs mostly into pen. This is definitely a damage loss for a damage build, short of extreme glass cannons or being buffed by your group.

I'm not against making MDW scale like other procs, just make it align with the standards.

Arcanasx · January 31

So, Maelstrom 2H currently scales up to 6200 weapon damage and is also damage capped. If MDW scales with weapon damage now but is also lacking a damage cap like Maelstrom 2H as if its intended, like it currently works on the PTS, then the weapon damage threshold for its original damage should be around 6600 weapon damage; like all the other weapon damage scaling "proc" sets.

After all, if the reasoning given for the scaling change was because it currently "allows tanks to do damage" then its only reasonable that that they choose 6600 weapon damage because lets be honest; no self buffed "tank build" is going to maintain nearly 6600 weapon damage close to a 100% uptime. And with that scaling, no one should be able to say how "its free damage for tanks", which has been the original complaint for those wanting MDW to scale with weapon damage in the first place.

Another thing to take into account: The more weapon damage you have, the less you're actually going to get from the MDW bonus itself relative to how much your other abilities are going to be improved. In other words, stacking weapon damage is going to improve your other skills more efficiently compared to the damage increase you'd have from a 1635 damage increase at 6600 weapon damage that boosts rending slashes or blood craze, so it isn't like MDW starts to get out of control if you start exceeding 6600 weapon damage. Again, the main complaint I see against MDW currently is "it allows tanks to do damage with flat damage sets." So give it the scaling that all the other scaling damage sets currently have.

MashmalloMan · January 31

Arcanasx wrote: »

So, Maelstrom 2H currently scales up to 6200 weapon damage and is also damage capped. If MDW scales with weapon damage now but is also lacking a damage cap like Maelstrom 2H as if its intended, like it currently works on the PTS, then the weapon damage threshold for its original damage should be around 6600 weapon damage; like all the other weapon damage scaling "proc" sets.

After all, if the reasoning given for the scaling change was because it currently "allows tanks to do damage" then its only reasonable that that they choose 6600 weapon damage because lets be honest; no self buffed "tank build" is going to maintain nearly 6600 weapon damage close to a 100% uptime. And with that scaling, no one should be able to say how "its free damage for tanks", which has been the original complaint for those wanting MDW to scale with weapon damage in the first place.

Another thing to take into account: The more weapon damage you have, the less you're actually going to get from the MDW bonus itself relative to how much your other abilities are going to be improved. In other words, stacking weapon damage is going to improve your other skills more efficiently compared to the damage increase you'd have from a 1635 damage increase at 6600 weapon damage that boosts rending slashes or blood craze, so it isn't like MDW starts to get out of control if you start exceeding 6600 weapon damage. Again, the main complaint I see against MDW currently is "it allows tanks to do damage with flat damage sets." So give it the scaling that all the other scaling damage sets currently have.

This.

Also to anyone saying.. well just focus on Weapon/Spell damage and you'll get it. Yeah maybe, maybe I'd get 7.8k, but now my Penetration, Crit Chance, Sustain, and Defence are terrible. Most damage dealer builds don't focus 100% into 1 stat. The problem with tanks is that they were able to build 40k+ hp with high armor mitigation, high penetration, high sustain, and sit around 4k weapon damage, while getting full benefit out of the bonus while also pairing it with other easy procs like Dragon's Appetite.

The scaling is a good choice, what's not is the threshold. A tank can not build to 6k+ weapon damage while also having 40k+ hp and high penetration to cheese the set. A well rounded build with 30k hp, decent pen, crit, etc, can. Cap it out instead of giving infinite scaling. What is the point of infinite scaling if no one would be silly enough to build for 7.8k + weapon damage to begin with. Why is the set relegated to glass cannons with super high weapon damage instead of a decent well rounded build? Doesn't make sense.

If they were to come out and say the new set standard threshold is close to 8k weapon damage for other sets, then I would understand, but that isn't the case right now. They also never said this change was intended as a nerf to most builds that actually deal damage, the intent was to cut out tanks abusing the set.

Galeriano · January 31

Arcanasx wrote: »

After all, if the reasoning given for the scaling change was because it currently "allows tanks to do damage" then its only reasonable that that they choose 6600 weapon damage because lets be honest; no self buffed "tank build" is going to maintain nearly 6600 weapon damage close to a 100% uptime.

It's not an issue at all to get into the territory of 6,6k wep dmg as a selfbuffed tanky setup.

Arcanasx · January 31

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

So, Maelstrom 2H currently scales up to 6200 weapon damage and is also damage capped. If MDW scales with weapon damage now but is also lacking a damage cap like Maelstrom 2H as if its intended, like it currently works on the PTS, then the weapon damage threshold for its original damage should be around 6600 weapon damage; like all the other weapon damage scaling "proc" sets.

After all, if the reasoning given for the scaling change was because it currently "allows tanks to do damage" then its only reasonable that that they choose 6600 weapon damage because lets be honest; no self buffed "tank build" is going to maintain nearly 6600 weapon damage close to a 100% uptime. And with that scaling, no one should be able to say how "its free damage for tanks", which has been the original complaint for those wanting MDW to scale with weapon damage in the first place.

Another thing to take into account: The more weapon damage you have, the less you're actually going to get from the MDW bonus itself relative to how much your other abilities are going to be improved. In other words, stacking weapon damage is going to improve your other skills more efficiently compared to the damage increase you'd have from a 1635 damage increase at 6600 weapon damage that boosts rending slashes or blood craze, so it isn't like MDW starts to get out of control if you start exceeding 6600 weapon damage. Again, the main complaint I see against MDW currently is "it allows tanks to do damage with flat damage sets." So give it the scaling that all the other scaling damage sets currently have.

This.

Also to anyone saying.. well just focus on Weapon/Spell damage and you'll get it. Yeah maybe, maybe I'd get 7.8k, but now my Penetration, Crit Chance, Sustain, and Defence are terrible. Most damage dealer builds don't focus 100% into 1 stat. The problem with tanks is that they were able to build 40k+ hp with high armor mitigation, high penetration, high sustain, and sit around 4k weapon damage, while getting full benefit out of the bonus while also pairing it with other easy procs like Dragon's Appetite.

The scaling is a good choice, what's not is the threshold. A tank can not build to 6k+ weapon damage while also having 40k+ hp and high penetration to cheese the set. A well rounded build with 30k hp, decent pen, crit, etc, can. Cap it out instead of giving infinite scaling. What is the point of infinite scaling if no one would be silly enough to build for 7.8k + weapon damage to begin with. Why is the set relegated to glass cannons with super high weapon damage instead of a decent well rounded build? Doesn't make sense.

If they were to come out and say the new set standard threshold is close to 8k weapon damage for other sets, then I would understand, but that isn't the case right now. They also never said this change was intended as a nerf to most builds that actually deal damage, the intent was to cut out tanks abusing the set.

Agreed, you're definitely making sacrifices in other potential stats when you're trying to approach the 6600 weapon damage threshold, despite how others may like to downplay the investment required.

Another thing to consider is that slotting an arena weapon tends to push you towards slotting another one on the other bar if you want your monster 2pc and mythic too. So those builds typically only have one 5pc set on the body. Comparing one 5pc set builds to two 5pc set builds, its noticeably easier for the two 5pc set builds to stack weapon damage compared to the double arena weapon setups. So arena weapon builds are going to be more limited in their options for stacking enough weapon damage to make using those arena weapons worth using as well.

silver1surfer69 · January 31

You kiddin? Thats the most lefthander thumbless set ever. This nerf is way overdue. It is way op. Gives me at least a little bit of hope that someone who knows what hes doing in dev team (if there ever is one) is lookinng at the statistics. Since 80% in pvp use it it will come to attention that it needs to be nerfed. I have it from the old days when you had to do vet to get it and never really used it.

silver1surfer69 · January 31

Arcanasx wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

So, Maelstrom 2H currently scales up to 6200 weapon damage and is also damage capped. If MDW scales with weapon damage now but is also lacking a damage cap like Maelstrom 2H as if its intended, like it currently works on the PTS, then the weapon damage threshold for its original damage should be around 6600 weapon damage; like all the other weapon damage scaling "proc" sets.

After all, if the reasoning given for the scaling change was because it currently "allows tanks to do damage" then its only reasonable that that they choose 6600 weapon damage because lets be honest; no self buffed "tank build" is going to maintain nearly 6600 weapon damage close to a 100% uptime. And with that scaling, no one should be able to say how "its free damage for tanks", which has been the original complaint for those wanting MDW to scale with weapon damage in the first place.

Another thing to take into account: The more weapon damage you have, the less you're actually going to get from the MDW bonus itself relative to how much your other abilities are going to be improved. In other words, stacking weapon damage is going to improve your other skills more efficiently compared to the damage increase you'd have from a 1635 damage increase at 6600 weapon damage that boosts rending slashes or blood craze, so it isn't like MDW starts to get out of control if you start exceeding 6600 weapon damage. Again, the main complaint I see against MDW currently is "it allows tanks to do damage with flat damage sets." So give it the scaling that all the other scaling damage sets currently have.

This.

Also to anyone saying.. well just focus on Weapon/Spell damage and you'll get it. Yeah maybe, maybe I'd get 7.8k, but now my Penetration, Crit Chance, Sustain, and Defence are terrible. Most damage dealer builds don't focus 100% into 1 stat. The problem with tanks is that they were able to build 40k+ hp with high armor mitigation, high penetration, high sustain, and sit around 4k weapon damage, while getting full benefit out of the bonus while also pairing it with other easy procs like Dragon's Appetite.

The scaling is a good choice, what's not is the threshold. A tank can not build to 6k+ weapon damage while also having 40k+ hp and high penetration to cheese the set. A well rounded build with 30k hp, decent pen, crit, etc, can. Cap it out instead of giving infinite scaling. What is the point of infinite scaling if no one would be silly enough to build for 7.8k + weapon damage to begin with. Why is the set relegated to glass cannons with super high weapon damage instead of a decent well rounded build? Doesn't make sense.

If they were to come out and say the new set standard threshold is close to 8k weapon damage for other sets, then I would understand, but that isn't the case right now. They also never said this change was intended as a nerf to most builds that actually deal damage, the intent was to cut out tanks abusing the set.

Agreed, you're definitely making sacrifices in other potential stats when you're trying to approach the 6600 weapon damage threshold, despite how others may like to downplay the investment required.

Another thing to consider is that slotting an arena weapon tends to push you towards slotting another one on the other bar if you want your monster 2pc and mythic too. So those builds typically only have one 5pc set on the body. Comparing one 5pc set builds to two 5pc set builds, its noticeably easier for the two 5pc set builds to stack weapon damage compared to the double arena weapon setups. So arena weapon builds are going to be more limited in their options for stacking enough weapon damage to make using those arena weapons worth using as well.

EZ to reach. Sea serpents coil + alchemist or molag kena/balorgh and you are there.

xylena_lazarow · January 31

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

EZ to reach. Sea serpents coil + alchemist or molag kena/balorgh and you are there.

Very low uptime, and good luck snaring yourself in Cyro.