Easy Major PvP Fix

B1ackjack187 · January 16

Their is too much sustain in the game with the Mundus stones, jewelry enchants and Wretched Vitality. That's why everyone is so hard to kill and the endless battles.

ZeniMax I beg you please remove the recovery and reduce cost jewelry enchants from the game. Its unnecessary now with all these sustain sets and foods we can use.

New starting enchants can be reduce cost to dodge roll for stamina sets. Reduce cost to break free for magicka sets. For heavy armor sets increase healing received. Now you can now increase the cost of break free and dodge roll. We're trying to make players lose resources.

As for mundus stones cut the Serpent and Atronach to 150 recovery 310 is way too high.

Now Wretched Vitality is 390 magic and stamina recovery that is crazy high. Reduce it to 250 recovery...

This is the fix ZeniMax I know your game well I've been playing since launch sustain is the problem. We can do it ZeniMax I believe in you 🫡

React · January 16

Sustain is definitely too high in PVP, but mundus stones and enchants aren't the issue at all. Wretched is definitely too stat dense, but it's not that widely used. I'd be fine with this set seeing a slight nerf.

The real culprits are the survival instincts CP node, bear haunch/jewels of misrule since max stats other than health aren't important anymore, and just the ability to heavy attack without risk due to the amount of max HP/healing/mitigation available.

Hybridization is also part of the problem, because now everybody has access to the best burst heals & HOTS which allow them to invest less into survivability/healing than they needed to previously when it was typically stamina builds that had good HOTs, and magicka builds that had good burst heals/wards.

valenwood_vegan · January 16

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

ZeniMax I beg you please remove the recovery and reduce cost jewelry enchants from the game pvp.

Fixed it for you. Not trying to be rude, just saying every time the daily nerf XYZ demands come up for pvp, I will be here to remind ZoS to finally balance the modes seperately.

DrNukenstein · January 16

Replace "sustain" with "all the free stats" and you would be correct.

It's not just the generous sustain. It's the 1000 (free) weapon damage that props up the damage of high health builds, and the free mag and stam (combined with the generous sustain) that makes their pools comfortable with 0 investment.

If battle spirit stripped or even halved the free stats, builds would be a thing again.

B1ackjack187 · January 16

React wrote: »

Sustain is definitely too high in PVP, but mundus stones and enchants aren't the issue at all. Wretched is definitely too stat dense, but it's not that widely used. I'd be fine with this set seeing a slight nerf.

The real culprits are the survival instincts CP node, bear haunch/jewels of misrule since max stats other than health aren't important anymore, and just the ability to heavy attack without risk due to the amount of max HP/healing/mitigation available.

Hybridization is also part of the problem, because now everybody has access to the best burst heals & HOTS which allow them to invest less into survivability/healing than they needed to previously when it was typically stamina builds that had good HOTs, and magicka builds that had good burst heals/wards.

Recovery enchants are the biggest problem players are putting multiple tank sets on with infused jewelry and just spamming heals. Hybrids have nothing to do with that player's will go to whatever class has heals and not play stam that's not balanced.

B1ackjack187 · January 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Replace "sustain" with "all the free stats" and you would be correct.

It's not just the generous sustain. It's the 1000 (free) weapon damage that props up the damage of high health builds, and the free mag and stam (combined with the generous sustain) that makes their pools comfortable with 0 investment.

If battle spirit stripped or even halved the free stats, builds would be a thing again.

You know what's up high health builds are a result of too much sustain. Players will have over 40k health and 10k magic and stamina pool with no problem problem spamming attacks because they're recovering is over 3k.

B1ackjack187 · January 16

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

ZeniMax I beg you please remove the recovery and reduce cost jewelry enchants from the game pvp.

Fixed it for you. Not trying to be rude, just saying every time the daily nerf XYZ demands come up for pvp, I will be here to remind ZoS to finally balance the modes seperately.

Tbh this shouldn't even effect pve everyone has a roll and nobody's sustain needs to be that high. You would be losing out on something over 2k recovery.

valenwood_vegan · January 16

Or... they could just reduce sustain via battle spirit like they do with health recovery, and there wouldn't be any controversy and pushback the pve side of things, where having high sustain if you want to literally harms no one.

And if done that way, you wouldn't even get people like me commenting on these kinds of posts!

PvP could ideally get more tweaks more frequently without the extra baggage of controversy and ripple effects on the pve side.

gariondavey · January 16

No thank you, those ideas are not good at all.
Removing (only via battlespirit) the free 1000 wd we got from the cp rework and the free net 3k hp + 5k mag and stam would do soooooooooo much to change the game into a better meta.

React · January 16

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Or... they could just reduce sustain via battle spirit like they do with health recovery, and there wouldn't be any controversy and pushback the pve side of things, where having high sustain if you want to literally harms no one.

And if done that way, you wouldn't even get people like me commenting on these kinds of posts!

PvP could ideally get more tweaks more frequently without the extra baggage of controversy and ripple effects on the pve side.

It's incredible that they've had a tool to balance the two sides of the game separately this whole time, and they've almost never utilized it. Such a shame.

El_Borracho · January 17

No. If anything, more sets need to be buffed to increase damage. The high health meta has made PVP dull. Players are there to kill, not pillowfight until one dies of boredom. In return, change the respawn rules so you can do them closer to the action.

Dagoth_Rac · January 17

That is going to be a nasty hit to Infinite Archive, where health regen and stamina regen are a big boon. DPS don't build for recovery in organized 12-man Trial groups because the support are almost always buffing their recovery. Without support players feeding you resources, you mostly have to handle your own recovery in solo and small-scale PvE. Health regen is extremely helpful in tougher Arcs of IA where you want to concentrate on damage and mechanics and the occasional emergency burst heal, not keeping up HoTs. And high stamina regen is helpful for later Arcs where you need to do a lot of dodging and blocking and bashing if you don't want to take 100K insta-gib hits from marauders and flameshapers and blobs and whatnot.

"We need to nerf recovery so players die a lot more in Cyrodiil," is simply not compatible with, "We came out with new PvE content where players need to last through hours and hours of 1vX without ever dying".

CameraBeardThePirate · January 18

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"We need to nerf recovery so players die a lot more in Cyrodiil," is simply not compatible with, "We came out with new PvE content where players need to last through hours and hours of 1vX without ever dying".

It is if ZOS uses the already existing mechanic that nerfs health recovery while in Cyrodiil.

Would be very easy to add a -20% (random number) mag/stam recovery debuff to Battle Spirit

Nihilr · January 18

It's been said before so I'll say it again:

PvP balance would be fixed if skills of the same name could not stack. Logic: If major and minor buffs cannot stack, then neither should a skill with the same name more than once.

IE: If you have rapid or radiating regeneration applied to you already, it simply refreshes instead of stacking from multiple sources.

If you and 3 others use the AoE Vigor, it applies only once to each other.

This forces ball groups to coordinate different skills. This properly weakens the effective sizes of ballgroups because this change couldn't be *abused* by ball-groups like the "anti-ballgroup" sets were supposed to do [Dark convergeance, Vicious, Plague, etc]

This doesn't fix the sustain issues for 1vX players, but it does reduce Xv1 issues.

bar_boss_A · January 20

Another opinion: heals should only scale with the resource they are casted and not with weapon spell/ damage. This would not affect pve as much as people there already run around with nearly 30k mag/stam but pvp would see a drastic decline of survivability. Let them spam their 3k burst heal

Nah jokes aside: I think if you have to invest more into your combat resource to gain survivability rather than just going max health it would create a more nuanced battle field.

Additionally I really like the idea of stripping all chars power by reducing the 1k weapon and spell damage because power creep made 90% of the game to easy to even consider playing it.

Zodiarkslayer · January 21

@B1ackjack187 You are not thinking far enough.
The best PvP experience in ESO would be if NoprocNoCP gets an additional "no set bonus" condition.

All player skill. That is what real PvP is about.

Oblivion_Protocol · January 21

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@B1ackjack187 You are not thinking far enough.
The best PvP experience in ESO would be if NoprocNoCP gets an additional "no set bonus" condition.

All player skill. That is what real PvP is about.

Right. Because those modes aren’t dead enough as is. Also, let’s not allow class balance to be the only thing determining who wins a fight.

As for the sustain argument, close but no cigar. You take away sustain and fights get reduced to boxing matches: brief periods of action with a lot of sitting around staring at each other in between with no one dying. People can just hump rocks and towers until their resources come back, then jump on you with their ultimate, and your proposed sustain changes won’t mean a thing.

It’s the base stat increases and hybridization allowing people to make full use of Stamina and Magicka abilities. Period. Full stop. You can have all the sustain in the world, but if you do no damage and can’t heal and can’t tank, congrats on being a particularly energetic corpse.

StarOfElyon · January 21

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Their is too much sustain in the game with the Mundus stones, jewelry enchants and Wretched Vitality. That's why everyone is so hard to kill and the endless battles.

ZeniMax I beg you please remove the recovery and reduce cost jewelry enchants from the game. Its unnecessary now with all these sustain sets and foods we can use.

New starting enchants can be reduce cost to dodge roll for stamina sets. Reduce cost to break free for magicka sets. For heavy armor sets increase healing received. Now you can now increase the cost of break free and dodge roll. We're trying to make players lose resources.

As for mundus stones cut the Serpent and Atronach to 150 recovery 310 is way too high.

Now Wretched Vitality is 390 magic and stamina recovery that is crazy high. Reduce it to 250 recovery...

This is the fix ZeniMax I know your game well I've been playing since launch sustain is the problem. We can do it ZeniMax I believe in you 🫡

Proc sets are the problem. Proc sets allow you to do damage and heal without spending resources. I play without procs and it's not "easy" to sustain when you constantly have to heal on your own and work for every bit of damage you put out.

StarOfElyon · January 21

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@B1ackjack187 You are not thinking far enough.
The best PvP experience in ESO would be if NoprocNoCP gets an additional "no set bonus" condition.

All player skill. That is what real PvP is about.

Right. Because those modes aren’t dead enough as is. Also, let’s not allow class balance to be the only thing determining who wins a fight.

As for the sustain argument, close but no cigar. You take away sustain and fights get reduced to boxing matches: brief periods of action with a lot of sitting around staring at each other in between with no one dying. People can just hump rocks and towers until their resources come back, then jump on you with their ultimate, and your proposed sustain changes won’t mean a thing.

It’s the base stat increases and hybridization allowing people to make full use of Stamina and Magicka abilities. Period. Full stop. You can have all the sustain in the world, but if you do no damage and can’t heal and can’t tank, congrats on being a particularly energetic corpse.

The only reason I don't go into no-cp more is because I don't want to risk a set bonus not working. I keep forgetting where to find the list of sets that work.

Nihilr · January 21

Resource sustain and ballgroup skill-stacking always has been, and always will be the main issue for PvP. Hybridization and proc sets actually pulled away from most people from making the same builds, but you'll never avoid having meta builds. People who play to "be the best" are gonna follow cookie-cutters on streamers/alcast/etc. Complaining about people making the same builds should stop because "same builds" will happen regardless. There are so many options now due to hybridization, I would feel railroaded into "not playing my way" that it would be another BS MMO instead of Elder Scrolls.

Neatle · January 22

Now Wretched Vitality is 390 magic and stamina recovery that is crazy high. Reduce it to 250 recovery...

Easy fix for sure, reducing a 5 pieces set to 2 primary stats recovery, i see people on the forum are really entitled to deal with this kind of things

Wretched vitality is barely used among the player base already so it's definitely not responsible for the current PvP state, i no longer use it but i can still recover my entire health by spending approximately ~4k magicka... and that's the problem: cost/efficiency of healing abilities, which has nothing to do with resource regeneration, if Wretched vitality was the cause then everyone would use it, that's not the case

even then, I find that having a naturally high resource regeneration is enjoyable since it promotes fast-paced gameplay, which is a positive aspect of the game. however, you still need to use heavy attacks during intense fights.

It is crucial to remember that there are other sources to generate resources, such as: race passives(generates or reduces the cost) / class abilities. I don't consider having ~1k regeneration every 2 seconds to be significant, but if you apply a debuff via battle spirit everyone will be obliged to play Wretched Vitality. I don't want to go back in 2020 when almost everyone was using 'Eternal Vigor' and/or waste my time relying on heavy attacks half of the time, it is boring and it gives us too much time to think which, in turn, could reduce the likelihood of making a mistake

you're just looking at it the wrong way.

Jsmalls · January 23

Easy fix, play No-CP No Proc Ravenwatch. Bring in friends, get other people to play it.

Promise you it's a 10x better version of PvP in this game. Hands down.

SandandStars · January 23

but when will they balance nightblade

ItsNotLiving · January 26

It’s so simple just remove hybridization. There I balanced PvP and even added 7 classes to the game for free for PvE.

MashmalloMan · January 26

Nihilr wrote: »

..you'll never avoid having meta builds. People who play to "be the best" are gonna follow cookie-cutters on streamers/alcast/etc. Complaining about people making the same builds should stop because "same builds" will happen regardless...

Thank you. When will people understand this. It's such a waste of time to complain about people using "meta" builds in pvp and pve. People who just want to copy/paste what works will always do so without an ounce of remorse when they're placed in a semi competitive situation.

The only reason you don't deal with meta's in single player games is because you're not forced to compete with other people, but even in those games that get into speed run territory end up all becoming exactly the same. You think a speed runner would take a longer route because they want to be "unique"?

As long as there is options to build how you want with a small enough gap, it really doesn't matter and will inevitably come down to skill level. When something gets too popular to the point where it overshadows every other option, yeah of course, there is a problem. Right now that seems to be Vat Staff + Ele Sus, but hey. Major Breach is a must and hard to get for lots of classes, if ZOS provided better options, then we would start seeing them pop up.

MashmalloMan · January 26

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

ZeniMax I beg you please remove the recovery and reduce cost jewelry enchants from the game. Its unnecessary now with all these sustain sets and foods we can use.

As soon as you start a suggestion with "just remove it from the game" you've lost all credibility and constructive criticism. Why would ZOS read beyond that statement?

As to your suggestions, none of them follow weighted set values, your suggestions are entirely based off of opinion and feeling, rather than math which would better support your argument. As some stated here, Wretched Vitality is very stat dense so it is by definition overloaded, but you can do the math to find a more reasonable value. Mundus Stones for sustain are also slightly above average, but again, there is evidence to support what they should be and 150 is much too low.

Enchants are perfectly balanced the way they are as they're 1:1 with the damage/resource/hp enchants in terms of weighted set values.

But yeah lots of compounding problems, doing the right adjustments to these 2 things wouldn't fix the issue you're bringing up because most people don't even use these 2 things to begin with.

Food/potions are going to be adjusted eventually with Hybridization changes. No one knows how that will look like, but my hope is that they just quit using weird rules with the rarity of the food and whether it's a drink or food to decide how much the food gives. Gold food in comparison to green is night and day in terms of the total stats it gives. Like 300% stronger if I were to guess without looking right now. It should be a more gradual increase like enchants or equipment rarity.

My other hope is that they reduce the overall power of foods to like 65% of what it is now, then add a bit more stats back to base characters. They did this with CP 2.0. Still gives some customization, but we would be less reliant on a mechanic you need to keep up 24/7. It kind of hurts the new player experience, because not using a decent food essentially leaves them without an entire 5 piece set bonus.